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HOH Top-60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

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Old
07-30-2014, 06:05 PM
  #526
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
With neither player offering an excellent playoff resume or set of intangibles, shouldn't Gilbert be considerably ahead of Martin, considering he posted prime Martin numbers, but for twice as long?

and I mean literally. Martin posted 5 seasons with a vsx score of 70+. Gilbert did it 10 times. And was a top-20 scorer 10 times as opposed to 4 for Martin.
Martin was the better goal scorer. I like goal scorers.

But, I would not be surprised if in round 2 voting I see the light.

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07-30-2014, 06:08 PM
  #527
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Only reason I would have gilbert ahead of Martin is because being alltime scoring leader and being face of media capital of usa for over a decade should mean something.

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07-30-2014, 06:14 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Martin
Gilbert
Barber
Mullen
Shutt
All of them, save for Mullen, are in my actual Top-60. I MIGHT have been a lil' too kind on Martin though.

I fully expect to rank Mullen in the last ten spots.

Amongst that group, Barber is the one that is significantly better than his number indicates.

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07-30-2014, 06:43 PM
  #529
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Martin was the better goal scorer. I like goal scorers.

But, I would not be surprised if in round 2 voting I see the light.
If he was, I wouldn't say it was by very much.

4-7-8-9-10
2-3-6-7-10

Not enough to offset assists and longevity, anyway.

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07-30-2014, 08:20 PM
  #530
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If he was, I wouldn't say it was by very much.

4-7-8-9-10
2-3-6-7-10

Not enough to offset assists and longevity, anyway.
Believe me, he was.

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07-30-2014, 10:29 PM
  #531
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Believe me, he was.
you make it sound like it's that obvious. Based on how many goals they each scored at their peaks (which I think would be the best way to determine goal scoring ability), it doesn't appear to be that obvious.

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07-30-2014, 11:49 PM
  #532
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I think Rick Martin was probably the most talented player on that short list, but he accomplished the least.

I imagine his rankings will be all over the board. Me? I focus more on accomplishments than raw talent level

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07-31-2014, 03:14 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Rick Martin was probably the most talented player on that short list, but he accomplished the least.

I imagine his rankings will be all over the board. Me? I focus more on accomplishments than raw talent level
Gilbert for a player of His statue, didn't really get much support in the post season AS selections and Hart conversations? . Also, why did Martin retire so abruptly after being dealt to the Kings? He had 4 points in 3 games with the Kings in 81-82. Was He injured at some point? Martin did average 41.6 goals per season when He played with Buffalo. Gilbert was more longevity then any explosive type of player.

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07-31-2014, 09:37 AM
  #534
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Injuries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
Gilbert for a player of His statue, didn't really get much support in the post season AS selections and Hart conversations? . Also, why did Martin retire so abruptly after being dealt to the Kings? He had 4 points in 3 games with the Kings in 81-82. Was He injured at some point? Martin did average 41.6 goals per season when He played with Buffalo. Gilbert was more longevity then any explosive type of player.
Both suffered injuries. Gilbert in junior suffered a back injury that required a career saving spinal operation. Rick Martin blew out a new and never recovered his original speed or mobility hence the early retirement.

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07-31-2014, 10:21 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If Jack Darragh counts as "pre-modern," Cy Denneny has to, as well, right? I'm probably just being technical here.

You counting Babe Dye as "pre-modern?"

Don't really see the case for Oatman over Gord Roberts, George Hay, or even Harry Hyland, but whatever, that will all be sorted out in Round 2.
Opinions on Reg Noble and Punch Broadbent?

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07-31-2014, 10:29 AM
  #536
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Opinions on Reg Noble and Punch Broadbent?
Reg Noble is in the 50s on my list, but I have no real justification, other than wanting him to be somewhere on my list so we can do mroe research on him in Round 2 to decide if he actually belongs.

I have read enough papers from the era to know that he was considered one of the top players. For example, Aurel Joliat "picked an all star team (at the request of W.A. Howard, a writer for Canadian National Magazine) confined to players who played against him during his 16 years as a professional. He puts Benedict or Gardiner in goal; Shore and Noble on defense; Nighbor at centre; with Cook and Jackson on the wings. It's a well balanced unit." (Montreal Gazette 2/13/1954). Noble spent a fair portion of his career at D, but more of at LW so he is considered a LW for the purposes of this project.

On the other hand, I have no real knowledge as to WHY Noble was thought of so highly. So I basically threw him on my list in the 50s, so he'll be available to research in more depth in Round 2. Basically, I see a solid prima facie case for Noble that I think is worth getting him into Round 2 discussion, where we can look at him in more depth to see if the case really holds up

Remember, the point of Round 1 lists isn't to be 100% accurate, it's to ensure that the proper names come up at reasonable times for discussion in Round 2, which is when the votes really matter.

_____________________

Punch Broadbent = Corey Perry (meaning one year wonder offensively but with a few more pretty good but non elite seasons thrown in) with better defense and more physicality? Or am I totally off?

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07-31-2014, 11:00 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Reg Noble is in the 50s on my list, but I have no real justification, other than wanting him to be somewhere on my list so we can do mroe research on him in Round 2 to decide if he actually belongs.
So I'm not the only one.
I made my list months ago and somehow missed Noble completely due to him playing multiple positions. Now after reading this thread I just put him somewhere into my 50s.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Punch Broadbent = Corey Perry (meaning one year wonder offensively but with a few more pretty good but non elite seasons thrown in) with better defense and more physicality? Or am I totally off?
Sounds about right.

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07-31-2014, 11:35 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Opinions on Reg Noble and Punch Broadbent?
Noble still has a shot around 60. Broadbent between 70/80.

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07-31-2014, 11:43 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Martin
Gilbert
Barber
Mullen
Shutt
anyone have Kerr and Hextall around these guys?

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07-31-2014, 11:44 AM
  #540
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
anyone have Kerr and Hextall around these guys?
Bryan Hextall is much better than them, and Dennis Hextall is worse.

As I said before, how many 80s players do you have to have on your list before considering Tim Kerr (who has to rank below Brian Propp, right?)

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07-31-2014, 11:53 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bryan Hextall is much better than them, and Dennis Hextall is worse.

As I said before, how many 80s players do you have to have on your list before considering Tim Kerr (who has to rank below Brian Propp, right?)
I know Kerr only played 655 GP, but 370G is on par with Neely's numbers. Just not sure where/if to rank him based on his goalscoring alone.


thoughts on:

Bert Olmstead
Lorne Carr
Bobby Bauer
Ken Wharram
Woody Dumart
Sid Smith
?

Was Ken Hodge too much of a product of Espo and Orr a la Kevin Stevens?


Last edited by amnesiac: 07-31-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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Old
07-31-2014, 12:21 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post

Was Ken Hodge too much of a product of Espo and Orr a la Kevin Stevens?
Yes, but less consistent than Kevin Stevens.

Quote:
Bert Olmstead
Lorne Carr
Bobby Bauer
Ken Wharram
Woody Dumart
Sid Smith
I think Olmstead's raw stats are inflated from playing with Beliveau, but he is the only one of these guys inducted into the HHOF by people who watched him play. (Bauer and Dumart - Milt Schmidt's linemates - were veteran's committee picks)

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07-31-2014, 01:56 PM
  #543
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Yes, but less consistent than Kevin Stevens.



I think Olmstead's raw stats are inflated from playing with Beliveau, but he is the only one of these guys inducted into the HHOF by people who watched him play. (Bauer and Dumart - Milt Schmidt's linemates - were veteran's committee picks)
From memory, Olmstead is in my top-50. None of Bauer or Dumart are in my top-60 -- I suspect I'll have a hard time leaving Dumart out of my top-80 and an even harder time getting Bauer in. Was Bauer ever a Top-4 RW for anything else than 1/year stretches ?

Bryan Hextall... Had him. Above Olmstead. Just a damn short prime though.

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07-31-2014, 01:58 PM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
I know Kerr only played 655 GP, but 370G is on par with Neely's numbers. Just not sure where/if to rank him based on his goalscoring alone.


thoughts on:

Bert Olmstead
Lorne Carr
Bobby Bauer
Ken Wharram
Woody Dumart
Sid Smith
?

Was Ken Hodge too much of a product of Espo and Orr a la Kevin Stevens?
Hodge and Carr won't make my list. Wharrham has a shot. See above for Bauer, Dumart. No clue on what to do with Sid Smith. Guts says out. Facts might not.

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07-31-2014, 04:39 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
I know Kerr only played 655 GP, but 370G is on par with Neely's numbers. Just not sure where/if to rank him based on his goalscoring alone.


thoughts on:

Bert Olmstead
Lorne Carr
Bobby Bauer
Ken Wharram
Woody Dumart
Sid Smith
?

Was Ken Hodge too much of a product of Espo and Orr a la Kevin Stevens?
I have Olmstead in my top 60, Dumart in the top 80, and none of the others ranked. Smith, Wharram, and Carr's resumes are based pretty much solely on their offense, which isn't good enough to merit them making it. Bauer was a good hustle player if you count that as an intangible, but his offense is still too weak.

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07-31-2014, 06:02 PM
  #546
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Rick Martin was probably the most talented player on that short list, but he accomplished the least.

I imagine his rankings will be all over the board. Me? I focus more on accomplishments than raw talent level
Based on what accomplishments?

Martin is the only 2 time first team all-star and only 4 time post season all-star of the group. Am I missing some other individual accomplishments from the others?

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07-31-2014, 06:08 PM
  #547
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i always get them mixed up, but jim pappin vs. kenny wharram?

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07-31-2014, 06:09 PM
  #548
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Reg Noble is in the 50s on my list, but I have no real justification, other than wanting him to be somewhere on my list so we can do mroe research on him in Round 2 to decide if he actually belongs.

I have read enough papers from the era to know that he was considered one of the top players. For example, Aurel Joliat "picked an all star team (at the request of W.A. Howard, a writer for Canadian National Magazine) confined to players who played against him during his 16 years as a professional. He puts Benedict or Gardiner in goal; Shore and Noble on defense; Nighbor at centre; with Cook and Jackson on the wings. It's a well balanced unit." (Montreal Gazette 2/13/1954). Noble spent a fair portion of his career at D, but more of at LW so he is considered a LW for the purposes of this project.

On the other hand, I have no real knowledge as to WHY Noble was thought of so highly. So I basically threw him on my list in the 50s, so he'll be available to research in more depth in Round 2. Basically, I see a solid prima facie case for Noble that I think is worth getting him into Round 2 discussion, where we can look at him in more depth to see if the case really holds up

Remember, the point of Round 1 lists isn't to be 100% accurate, it's to ensure that the proper names come up at reasonable times for discussion in Round 2, which is when the votes really matter.

_____________________

Punch Broadbent = Corey Perry (meaning one year wonder offensively but with a few more pretty good but non elite seasons thrown in) with better defense and more physicality? Or am I totally off?
You may have missed the fact that Perry was a first team all-star last season. That's usually better than pretty good.

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07-31-2014, 06:13 PM
  #549
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Based on what accomplishments?

Martin is the only 2 time first team all-star and only 4 time post season all-star of the group. Am I missing some other individual accomplishments from the others?
I guess I'm just being a stat-head, looking at Martin's stats, which don't particularly impress compared to some of the others. IMO, that's fair, considering Martin was basically an offense-only player (and one who was regularly Gilbert Perreault's linemate at that).

Also taking into account that there is a theory that he would have been a HHOFer if not for injuries... well, some of those other guys are actually HHOFers.

As for his All-Star Teams, who was the competition? Very few good LWs in the NHL in the 70s (and early 80s).

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07-31-2014, 06:15 PM
  #550
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i always get them mixed up, but jim pappin vs. kenny wharram?
I mean, Wharram peaked higher (he's the one with the handful of all-star teams on Mikita's line), but I don't see either as particularly relevant to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You may have missed the fact that Perry was a first team all-star last season. That's usually better than pretty good.
Yeah I guess I originally made the Broadbent/Perry comparison before Perry's last season (and then repeated myself here). I guess the point was that if someone thinks Perry hasn't been elite enough long enough, what does that say about Punch?

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