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Peter Forsberg: The Reality in Contrast With The Imagined, Romanticized Version.

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Old
07-27-2014, 04:20 PM
  #226
Fred Taylor
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Federov was far superior to Forsberg defensively, it's almost night and day. As some posters have mentioned, Forsberg was good defensively but because he played a physical game, it was perceived as being a "great two-way" game.

In regards to PK icetime, the data on NHL.com goes as far back as the 1997-98 season, some would argue that this was the season in which Forsberg was closest to Jagr during their primes. It's interesting that Forsberg (2:23 PK minutes per game) wasn't even among the top 60 players in the NHL in PK icetime per game, in fact it was another Colorado centerman (Stepahne Yelle) who was 13th overall in the league in PK icetime per game and who led all Colorado forwards in PK icetime per game. In fact Forsberg was only 9th on the Avalanche in PK icetime per game and only 4th among forwards on the team, Jari Kurri, Thomas Fitzgerald and Stephane Yelle all killed more penalties than Forsberg did according to the stats.

Now we have 1998-99, a season in which Forsberg and Sakic were pretty even in terms of performance. Joe Sakic led all Avalanche forwards with 3:32 minutes per game of PK while Forsberg was again 4th among Avs forwards (Stephane Yelle and Eric Lacroix and Sakic all getting more icetime on the PK than Forsberg did), Forsberg's PK icetime per game was 2:45. Sakic played a full 3/4 of a minute more per game.

In fact Sakic averaged more PK icetime per game in 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2000-01 and 2002-03.

When Forsberg won his lone Art Ross and Hart trophies, he averaged just 0:12 minutes of icetime per game on the PK. Forsberg was 13th among forwards on the Avs in that category that season. BTW in comparison, Sakic averaged 1:32 minutes per game on the PK that season. So clearly the voters were looking at something else than PK when they voted him 4th in Selke voting in 2002-03.

Forsberg also played 4:33 of icetime per game on the PP that season and his overall icetime was actually less than Hejduk's so it seems like Hejduk was more than capable of being a premier player on his own.

Forsberg was nowhere near the defensive player some are making him out to be. His Selke voting record is based on reputation and nothing more. He wasn't even his team's best two-way forward (that title belonged to Sakic) nor was he even among the top 3 best defensive forwards on the team, all of Yelle, Sakic and Hejduk played more on the penalty kill than Forsberg did.

As CzechyourMath mentioned, let Jagr rest up for a season and come back for the playoffs or regular season and he would have chewed the league up alive.

Any advantage Forsberg had with scoring per minute, was offset by the simple fact that those Avalanche teams were 4 lines deep and had so much more talent than those Lemieux-less Jagr led Penguins teams.
I love how in a thread comparing Forsberg to Crosby that you mentioned once that Forsberg had the defense of Bergeron and the physicality of prime Ovechkin, I actually remember you specifically saying that, but now that he's being compared to Jagr his defense and physicality are massively overrated.

Let's put it this way, even if he was just above average defensively, you combine that with a very physical game, and very good offensive and puck possession game which was second to Jagr's, then you have yourself one hell of an effective player. The problem is though that Forsberg was more than just above average defensively, he was basically elite defensively many seasons, you've even said it yourself when he was being compared to Crosby.

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07-27-2014, 04:58 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Federov was far superior to Forsberg defensively, it's almost night and day. As some posters have mentioned, Forsberg was good defensively but because he played a physical game, it was perceived as being a "great two-way" game.

In regards to PK icetime, the data on NHL.com goes as far back as the 1997-98 season, some would argue that this was the season in which Forsberg was closest to Jagr during their primes. It's interesting that Forsberg (2:23 PK minutes per game) wasn't even among the top 60 players in the NHL in PK icetime per game, in fact it was another Colorado centerman (Stepahne Yelle) who was 13th overall in the league in PK icetime per game and who led all Colorado forwards in PK icetime per game. In fact Forsberg was only 9th on the Avalanche in PK icetime per game and only 4th among forwards on the team, Jari Kurri, Thomas Fitzgerald and Stephane Yelle all killed more penalties than Forsberg did according to the stats.

Now we have 1998-99, a season in which Forsberg and Sakic were pretty even in terms of performance. Joe Sakic led all Avalanche forwards with 3:32 minutes per game of PK while Forsberg was again 4th among Avs forwards (Stephane Yelle and Eric Lacroix and Sakic all getting more icetime on the PK than Forsberg did), Forsberg's PK icetime per game was 2:45. Sakic played a full 3/4 of a minute more per game.

In fact Sakic averaged more PK icetime per game in 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2000-01 and 2002-03.

When Forsberg won his lone Art Ross and Hart trophies, he averaged just 0:12 minutes of icetime per game on the PK. Forsberg was 13th among forwards on the Avs in that category that season. BTW in comparison, Sakic averaged 1:32 minutes per game on the PK that season. So clearly the voters were looking at something else than PK when they voted him 4th in Selke voting in 2002-03.

Forsberg also played 4:33 of icetime per game on the PP that season and his overall icetime was actually less than Hejduk's so it seems like Hejduk was more than capable of being a premier player on his own.

Forsberg was nowhere near the defensive player some are making him out to be. His Selke voting record is based on reputation and nothing more. He wasn't even his team's best two-way forward (that title belonged to Sakic) nor was he even among the top 3 best defensive forwards on the team, all of Yelle, Sakic and Hejduk played more on the penalty kill than Forsberg did.

As CzechyourMath mentioned, let Jagr rest up for a season and come back for the playoffs or regular season and he would have chewed the league up alive.

Any advantage Forsberg had with scoring per minute, was offset by the simple fact that those Avalanche teams were 4 lines deep and had so much more talent than those Lemieux-less Jagr led Penguins teams.
C'mon now, are you seriously going to argue that Hejduk was a better defensive forward than Forsberg, and that the evidence is PK ice time?

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07-30-2014, 01:19 PM
  #228
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This thread seems partially a bit off-topic by now.

Anyway, some points...

1. Yes, Forsberg is to an extent a bit romanticized. He wasn't as good defensively as some claim him to be. He also wasn't a very dangerous goal scorer, although he did improve his goal scoring during playoffs.

2. It's difficult to judge which one of Sakic and Forsberg was the best. Sakic had his dangerous wrist shot, and he too had a great overall game.

3. Lots of stats in this thread. But please understand that there needs to be significative differences in - for example - point production for it to be significative. It doesn't really matter if a player scores 5-10 points more than another per season, or 0.1 points per game more. This is because:
a) different players have different roles, i.e. are used differently.
b) different players are differently benefited by which teammates they play with
c) scoring points is not everything. There are (usually) 5 skaters on the ice for a team, and while the point definitely creates offense that matters (i.e. goals for), the players who do not score on a goal for may have contributed in other ways.

4. As some say, Forsberg at his peak (around 2003) might have been the best player. But overall during his career there are some equally good forwards. (And Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky obvously being better during their peak than Forsberg during his.)

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07-31-2014, 04:33 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post

BTW, I think Forsberg's ES minutes were lower, because half the time he was flopping and drawing a penalty, negating the ES shift on which he played.
If some people are claiming there is a "romanticism" going on around Forsberg. What should posts like this by Czech your..,be called then? An anti-Forsberg-ism. Or a bad-mouth-Forsberg-long-after- career-so-maybe-my-fav-player-Jagr-looks-better-to-some-ism

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07-31-2014, 07:31 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Uno Bench View Post
If some people are claiming there is a "romanticism" going on around Forsberg. What should posts like this by Czech your..,be called then? An anti-Forsberg-ism. Or a bad-mouth-Forsberg-long-after- career-so-maybe-my-fav-player-Jagr-looks-better-to-some-ism
Sorry for trying to inject some humor ITT... something it, and you, seem to be sorely lacking.

I'm not saying Forsberg was constantly diving every shift, but most players do it a fair amount, to try and draw a penalty, and I think most of us know that Forsberg was hardly an exception. One distinctive thing about Jagr, was that he never dove, at least not that I can ever recall seeing.

Now if a player as skilled as Jagr is also as big and strong as Jagr, and on top of that never dives, just think of the implications for the defense during the DPE. They could hook, hold, tackle, slash, etc., on top of the already legal double and triple teams that were an omnipresent sight when Jagr was on the ice, with little fear of a penalty being called, and that's exactly what they did. There's a reason Shanahan said in '07, during his first year with the Rangers, that he had never seen a player take so much abuse. Remember, that's Shanahan, a player who has been through and seen some hockey wars... and AFAIK, not prone to hyperbole ala Gretzky's half dozen "next Gretzkys." Also remember, that's a 34-35 y/o Jagr, coming off major shoulder surgery, in the "new" NHL where penalties were being called left and right for well over a season. So that should give some idea of the abuse Jagr took during his peak/prime years, when he still had speed, was at the top of his game, and the refs turned a blind eye to just about everything.

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07-31-2014, 07:33 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
One distinctive thing about Jagr, was that he never dove, at least not that I can ever recall seeing.
That just means he was better at it than Forsberg.

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07-31-2014, 08:17 PM
  #232
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That just means he was better at it than Forsberg.
No it doesn't mean that. Jagr never ever dove. He took a heck more abuse than Forsberg did and never embellished anything to get a call.

From:http://www.rockawave.com/news/2007-0...ports/046.html

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"I don't know what the deal is," he said. "Guys hit [Jagr] late; guys hit him high; guys hook his hands he doesn't complain; he just goes out and plays. The referees just seem to have a different set of rules about the way people get to play against him.

"I've played with other superstars and they get a whole lot more respect than this guy. Mats Sundin goes down first period, first shift - penalty. Jaromir Jagr's gotta carry guys on his back all season long," Shanahan said.

"It didn't happen to Steve Yzerman, didn't happen to Nik Lidstrom, it never happened to Mike Modano. Joe Sakic - I've seen it all. There's a certain amount of respect - guys who have the puck on their stick a lot draw penalties. Jags never draws penalties. There's a different set of rules refs have for him. It's a different set of rules for Jaromir Jagr."

Shanahan said it could be because Jagr is so big, he doesn't get knocked but coach Tom Renney was lost for answers. "You have to wonder," the coach said. "It's just as simple as that. I don't know if there is a biased. I don't know what happens to other teams and their best players. By the nature of how he plays, people should observe that and I am not suggesting the referees should know what's happening. You have to think they do their homework."

Renney, though, was happy with the way Jagr plays. "With the way diving is called these days, it's a good thing he doesn't go down."

"It's time to say something on his behalf. He's not going to complain, so I am going to do it for him."

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07-31-2014, 08:27 PM
  #233
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No it doesn't mean that. Jagr never ever dove. He took a heck more abuse than Forsberg did and never embellished anything to get a call.

From:http://www.rockawave.com/news/2007-0...ports/046.html
How dare you!

Only a Jagr fanboy would suggest that Jaromir Jagr was so frickin' big, strong, and talented, that there actually was a "different set of rules" for him.

I mean, it couldn't be that they didn't want a European putting guys like Lindros and Crosby to shame, right? Oh no, that would never a happen in a North American, revenue-producing, entertainment industry... I mean, sport... highly dependent on marketing N.A. stars. That could only happen in a "garage league" or something.

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07-31-2014, 08:53 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
How dare you!

Only a Jagr fanboy would suggest that Jaromir Jagr was so frickin' big, strong, and talented, that there actually was a "different set of rules" for him.

I mean, it couldn't be that they didn't want a European putting guys like Lindros and Crosby to shame, right? Oh no, that would never a happen in a North American, revenue-producing, entertainment industry... I mean, sport... highly dependent on marketing N.A. stars. That could only happen in a "garage league" or something.
Here we go with the ref/league conspiracy again, that went so well last time.

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08-01-2014, 12:01 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
No it doesn't mean that. Jagr never ever dove. He took a heck more abuse than Forsberg did and never embellished anything to get a call.

From:http://www.rockawave.com/news/2007-0...ports/046.html
Forsberg took a similar amount of abuse to Jagr. Jagr wasn't some lone persecuted man; its how stars who played puck possession styles were treated in that era. If you had the puck, you were a marked man.

Agree that Forsberg was much much more of a diver

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08-01-2014, 12:04 AM
  #236
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Forsberg took a similar amount of abuse to Jagr. Jagr wasn't some lone persecuted man; its how stars who played puck possession styles were treated in that era. If you had the puck, you were a marked man.

Agree that Forsberg was much much more of a diver

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08-01-2014, 11:12 AM
  #237
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No it doesn't mean that. Jagr never ever dove. He took a heck more abuse than Forsberg did and never embellished anything to get a call.
Don't say that, he had his fair share of dives aswell. Many of the greats that played the game dove on several occasions, Mario Lemieux was a notorious diver, so was Wayne.




I strongly believe Forsberg took more abuse than Jagr did, mostly because Forsberg played a chippy game himself and wasn't afraid of get his nose dirty either.
I believe he actually thrived on it. Forsberg was also much, much more physical than Jagr ever was.


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"Some of the stuff he does is just ridiculous. Jaromir Jagr is big and strong like Forsberg, but Jagr doesn't fight back if you play him tough like Forsberg does. "I think he's the toughest player in the game to play against. And he gets that same kind of look in his eyes -- that steely glare that so often is associated with Mark Messier -- and you don't want to be anywhere near him, if you are an opponent."

http://www.nhl.com/cupcrazy/2004/ser...rg041404.shtml


Last edited by Lexus: 08-01-2014 at 11:35 AM.
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08-01-2014, 11:33 AM
  #238
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No it doesn't mean that. Jagr never ever dove. He took a heck more abuse than Forsberg did and never embellished anything to get a call.
You missed the point, I think. The point is that we cannot tell, externally. Some diving is obvious, but suggesting that we can always tell, just by looking, whether a player has embellished or not is untenable.

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08-01-2014, 12:35 PM
  #239
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I strongly believe Forsberg took more abuse than Jagr did, mostly because Forsberg played a chippy game himself and wasn't afraid of get his nose dirty either.
I'm not sure how there would even be an objective measure of this. Paul Kariya wasn't physical at all, and Gary Suter and Scott Stevens tried to decapitate him.

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08-01-2014, 12:36 PM
  #240
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I'm not sure how there would even be an objective measure of this. Paul Kariya wasn't physical at all, and Gary Suter and Scott Stevens tried to decapitate him.
Yes, but Kariya didn't get the shift by shift punishment that guys who held on to the puck forever like Forsberg and Jagr did, though

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08-01-2014, 12:41 PM
  #241
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Jagr took a ton of abuse.

Forsberg took his fair share too.

Forsberg also definitely dove a lot more. There is a reason he is known as Floppa.

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