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Old
04-09-2007, 09:05 AM
  #76
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reading this thread was not the way to start my week.....

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04-09-2007, 09:06 AM
  #77
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tawnos...

I agree...let's just be damn happy that this team is in the playoffs and I'm done arguing how they got here. They're here. Now let's all be on the same page and root for them to get deep into these playoffs (again, would love to see the Rangers play the Islanders in these playoffs - I think that would be an exciting series).

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04-09-2007, 09:24 AM
  #78
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I certainly want to give credit to Renney and his staff for a commendable job in the last half of the season. He was able to form a successful defense to help Lundqvist. Still, I feel there are better coaches out there than Renney, who I would prefer to see as an assistant coach. Girardi, Callahan and other young players who have been playing really good only got their chance because Renney was forced to let them play because of injuries and Ozolinsh & Kaspar were waived way too late. I can understand why he refused to give up on Kaspar though.

Most credit I give to Sather though for acquiring Avery (a big reason why we are in the playoffs) and Bourret, both of them absolute steals. I also like the Ward - Mara trade.

The big question I ask myself is: Would another coach have done better with this squad?


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04-09-2007, 07:36 PM
  #79
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If I've learned one thing in a lifetime of watching sports it's that there is only one person I'd be satisfied with when it comes to my teams, only one person who would do things the way I want...and that person is me. I've had philosophical differences with every coach of every team I've ever rooted for. Seeing that I will never have the opportunity to coach a professional sports team, I moan, groan and complain, but unless a coach is completely incompetent (we've had some of those in NY...Low, Trottier, Muckler, Art Howe with the Mets, for example), I accept their decisions. Often, I scratch my head in amazement and bewilderment, scream, yell and curse, but that's what it means to be a sports fan and by definition be a Monday morning quarterback.
I'm also a lifetime student of group dynamics and have had the pleasure of managing a hockey team size group of professionals. There is no one style of management that trumps all others. I've seen every type of management style work, and every type of management style fail miserably. But, to me, the common denominators of success are communication, fairness to all, setting high standards but understanding that not everyone is going to meet them, being able to plan in both the long and short term, and having the ability to listen, grow, and admit when you are wrong and that something isn't working. As a manager, you set overall goals for the team as a whole, but understand that you are dealing with glorious but flawed human beings. You take the time to know each person individually and make allowances for each individuals unique and special talents. You hold everyone accountable but make it understood that you too are accountable.
With sports teams, we often focus on a player's physical attributes and abilities and their health. Not being around a team, that's what we see. What we don't see and is of vital importance is each players mental state and inner health. Some players need to be coddled, others kicked. Some players respond to being yelled at, others are over sensitive and close down. Some players are having family and marital problems (can you imagine how hard it is being the wife of a professional athlete, especially when you have children). You get all types on a team. You have young players just beginning to realize who they are, you have players in the prime of their careers, you have older players dealing with the slow decay of their skills (can you imagine what that most be like?). You have babies and you have men. You have leaders and followers, party animals and stay at home guys. You have guys who thrive under pressure and you have guys who cringe and run away. You have religious guys and non believers. You have guys with a deeply ingrained work ethic and others who are lazy.
I often think, from my own experience as a manager, that this is the most important part of the job. As important as the technical stuff is, as important as in game management is...the group dynamics stuff is most important.
So, what kind a coach is Renney? Though I've had major disagreements with some of the things he has done (Prucha, Pock, staying with Hossa, even though he seems to have turned the corner [I still have some doubts and want to see him perform over the long term]), I've had more problems with Sather. Though some of line usage in game leaves me bewildered, I don't think he's that bad. He's actually a pretty competent coach, seems to be really good with the group dynamics stuff. Could a team win the Cup (not necessarily the Rangers) with him as coach. Yeah, I think so.
So, I say, keep him. Sometimes I have a visceral reaction to a coach. When all is said and done, I like the guy. Are his players willing to work for him and go that extra mile (the true mark of an able manager in any field), yes, I think they are.

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04-09-2007, 09:18 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Worked for Renney, right? After all, last year Hossa got to skate on the 2nd line the the entire months of October, November & December. He was quite putrid during that time. However, Renney steadfastly refused to remove him. Would that Prucha got to prance around for 3 months without producing anything, as a top-6 forward.
Ahh TB, I missed you buddy! Where have you been?

Anyways, just thought I'd interrupt you here - hope you don't mind.

Your above statement generated a little bit of interest on my part so I decided to go back and look at the game sheets for October, November, and December of 2005. Your recollection didn't exactly match mine and I figured I'd call you on it. So, here's what I've found:

- NHL.com's boxscore search function was giving me APP errors anytime I tried to search for an October box earlier than the 25th. The way I see it, Hossa was actually producing for the majority of this month and any time he may have actually spent on the 2nd line was likely justified.

- Now, here's where things get interesting : in looking at November Marcel played in 13 games (one of which no stats were made available - only a recap. It was a game against Florida and I think they had some tech problems). So in the 12 games where info was available Hossa averaged 12:15. The maximum he played in anyone game was 15:23 on November 3rd, and the minimum he played was 7:47 on November 7th. Not exactly second line minutes, and certainly not for the entire month.

- December is even more intriguing. Of the 13 Ranger games played in that month, Marcel was a healthy scratch for 3 of them: December 7th, 13th, and 28th respectively. During his 10 games of action he received an average of 9:48. With a maximum of 12:34 on December 31st and a minimum of 7:00 on December 10th. Factor in his three healthy scratches and I'm sure you get the picture now...certainly not 2nd line minutes.

These statistics don't suggest that he never played on the second line during these stints. However, they do suggest that you've conveniently over-exaggerated Marcel's participation.

I think that you'll find if you compare box scores over October, November, and December of this year during which Prucha undeniably struggled for part of that period, the statistics for playing time would be quite similar. He played on that second line with Cullen and Shanny for a LONG time and the three of them were given ample opportunity to come together.

Despite these coloured glasses that some of you seem to be viewing the world from, Renney is far from a bad coach. His weaknesses are over-exaggerated and strengths understated.

He's learning, he's a better coach now than when he started two and a half seasons ago, and he's only going to get better.

It wasn't too long ago that players like Pock, Hossa, and even Fedor Tyutin were offered as trade bait in everyone of JOrts proposals. Now THAT is a measure of success!

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04-09-2007, 09:26 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Actually, I think Renney started implimenting the ideas that many here have been pushing for (not that he is reading our posts, just that he is doing it on his own.) He matched lines last night, getting Jagr away from Souray and Komisarik. He was able to use the line change to get Shanahan out with Jagr and Nylander which resulted in a goal. I think recently Renney has been using the last change to the team's benefit, which is something he stubbornly refused to do in the 1st half.

We called for Betts to be simply the 4th line center and he hasn't played better since the demotion. We want Prucha in the lineup and not on the 4th line... scores within the first 3 minutes. We want Nylander, Straka and Jagr separated, the team starts scoring.

Point is there are lots and lots of good things this guy is doing but the knock is that you can go back to October and November and find us clamouring for these very ideas to be used. He deserves full marks for Hossa and Isbister on the 1st line, not something any of us would do but it seems to work. Beyond that, I don't know how we can pat him on the back and say you were right, we were wrong. I'm not trying to rip Renney, he's turned the team around... but I'm not eating crow when he is finding success with our ideas.
That is incredible. Success with your ideas. Get your application in as soon as possible.

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04-10-2007, 06:45 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by PanniniClaus View Post
That is incredible. Success with your ideas. Get your application in as soon as possible.
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Actually, I think Renney started implimenting the ideas that many here have been pushing for (not that he is reading our posts, just that he is doing it on his own.)
We called for Betts to be simply the 4th line center and he hasn't played better since the demotion. We want Prucha in the lineup and not on the 4th line... scores within the first 3 minutes. We want Nylander, Straka and Jagr separated, the team starts scoring.

Point is there are lots and lots of good things this guy is doing but the knock is that you can go back to October and November and find us clamouring for these very ideas to be used. He deserves full marks for Hossa and Isbister on the 1st line, not something any of us would do but it seems to work. Beyond that, I don't know how we can pat him on the back and say you were right, we were wrong. I'm not trying to rip Renney, he's turned the team around... but I'm not eating crow when he is finding success with our ideas.
Great reading comprehension, really. I thought I made it clear that it wasn't me or anyone here for that matter advising Renney at any point. In fact I'm pretty sure the point is that if any of us can come up with the correct solution 4 months before the coach it is kind of sad. It's not that the solution was some brilliant master plan... it's that the solution was the obvious, normally 1st or 2nd solution.

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04-10-2007, 07:49 AM
  #83
Fletch
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BigE...

is it 2006 or 2005 that TB's speaking of?

Mugerya, not even sure why you bothered...

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04-10-2007, 12:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
is it 2006 or 2005 that TB's speaking of?

Mugerya, not even sure why you bothered...
I know, I'm just sick of people avoiding valid points when they don't agree with you.

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04-10-2007, 08:20 PM
  #85
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Ahh TB, I missed you buddy! Where have you been?
Lots and lots of work
Quote:
These statistics don't suggest that he never played on the second line during these stints. However, they do suggest that you've conveniently over-exaggerated Marcel's participation.
However, reality is different. Up until the point when he was banished from the lineup (probably the December 28th date you are refering to), he was in fact playind exclusively on the 2nd line. Now, it must be mentioned that it was during ES, so if he recieved little special teams time, that would be indicative of the total time that you are mentioning. IF you recall, and apprently you do not, when he went into his 25 or so game funk and did not score a single point, there seemed to be daily threads about just what is it that Hossa is doing on THE SECOND line. After his return from his banishment, he did not play on the 2nd line. However, most, if not all, of his ES time for October, November & December was spent exclusively on the 2nd line. Stating that he did not do is is not factual. Judging by your post, this is something that you have forgoten. I, however, did not.

Please do not state that I am conveniently over-exaggerating his participation during that time. He played only the 2nd line at that time. The daily treads about him playing there were not becuase he was playing on the 4th line.
Quote:
He played on that second line with Cullen and Shanny for a LONG time and the three of them were given ample opportunity to come together.
No matter which way you slice it, he did not last the 3 months that Hossa did on the 2nd line. And last I checked, Shanny and Cullen still have not come together.
Quote:
Despite these coloured glasses that some of you seem to be viewing the world from, Renney is far from a bad coach. His weaknesses are over-exaggerated and strengths understated.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I happen to think that he is a mediocre coach, whose strengths are over-exaggerated and weaknesses are understated by those who wish to glorify him.

Oh, and I missed you too.

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04-10-2007, 09:37 PM
  #86
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Lots and lots of work

However, reality is different. Up until the point when he was banished from the lineup (probably the December 28th date you are refering to), he was in fact playind exclusively on the 2nd line. Now, it must be mentioned that it was during ES, so if he recieved little special teams time, that would be indicative of the total time that you are mentioning. IF you recall, and apprently you do not, when he went into his 25 or so game funk and did not score a single point, there seemed to be daily threads about just what is it that Hossa is doing on THE SECOND line. After his return from his banishment, he did not play on the 2nd line. However, most, if not all, of his ES time for October, November & December was spent exclusively on the 2nd line. Stating that he did not do is is not factual. Judging by your post, this is something that you have forgoten. I, however, did not.
This has become an argument from memory and all you've brought to support yourself is a bunch of absolutes followed by in my opinion type statements.

Twenty-five or so? Be specific. What was it, really?

October, November & December...right. He was scoring in October, and of the ten games he actually played in December he played less than 10 minutes on six of those occassions. Do you mean to tell me that the second line was playing less than 10 minutes a game during that period? This even discounts the three games he was marked as a healthy scratch, which you totally shrug off.

Sure he played on the 2nd line for some of those games, but he was also given a few games on Jagr's line and more than a few games on Betts' line playing 7-8 minutes per.

Quote:
Please do not state that I am conveniently over-exaggerating his participation during that time. He played only the 2nd line at that time. The daily treads about him playing there were not becuase he was playing on the 4th line.
Again with the absolutes...

Then you follow it up with another exaggeration: daily threads. Perhaps there was the odd weekly threaded started by yourself or a few other trigger-happy posters, but not daily.

These may seem like little things, but they all add up in the end. All of the "maybe's" and "or so's" don't fit an argumentive style that focuses upon absolutes.

Quote:
No matter which way you slice it, he did not last the 3 months that Hossa did on the 2nd line. And last I checked, Shanny and Cullen still have not come together.
No, Prucha did not last 3 months, but neither did Hossa and that is my point.

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04-12-2007, 06:44 AM
  #87
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Obviously Lundqvist has a great deal to do with the fact that we are in the Playoffs
I agree, but too much shouldn't be put into that argument.

Renney got Lundqvist and Jagr, though allot of other coaches also got good players, some guys are experts at pretending that Jagr and Lundqvist have made Renney.

Though take away the top goalie and top player from just about any team and they aren't close to the PO's.

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04-12-2007, 07:59 AM
  #88
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ola...

last season more than this season Jagr and Lundqvist made Renney's job very easy. He was able to send Jagr out there 20-22 minutes per game, with Straka and Nylander, which enabled him to be extremely flexible with the rest of his lines. Lundqvist afforded the team an opportunity to win on most nights, despite play in front of him on many of those nights. Not too many coaches in the league can say they had the most dangerous offensive weapon in the league, one of the top lines in the league, and a top 5 goaltender in the league. It's like giving a 5 meter head start to a sprinter in a 100 meter race. That contributed significantly.

This season he tried the same plan as last season, and the results early weren't as good as last season because he didn't have the most dangerous offensive weapon in the league and the goalie was playing like a middle-of-the-pack goatender rather than a top five goalie.

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04-12-2007, 08:44 AM
  #89
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last season more than this season Jagr and Lundqvist made Renney's job very easy. He was able to send Jagr out there 20-22 minutes per game, with Straka and Nylander, which enabled him to be extremely flexible with the rest of his lines. Lundqvist afforded the team an opportunity to win on most nights, despite play in front of him on many of those nights. Not too many coaches in the league can say they had the most dangerous offensive weapon in the league, one of the top lines in the league, and a top 5 goaltender in the league. It's like giving a 5 meter head start to a sprinter in a 100 meter race. That contributed significantly.

This season he tried the same plan as last season, and the results early weren't as good as last season because he didn't have the most dangerous offensive weapon in the league and the goalie was playing like a middle-of-the-pack goatender rather than a top five goalie.
I don't agree with that, we outshoot the other team something like 55% of the time, thats pretty convincing evidence that we ought to have been in the run with a mediocre goalie, right?

Jagr scored a ton, but how much does that help Renney, when our 1st line as a unit didn't score more then the avg 1st line in the league? Jagr gave Renney a 1st line, but he didn't alone give him a great first line compared to others around the league.

Renney himself said last season that he weren't suprised about how well his team played, but that he were suprised about how some of the other teams played. Renney clearly hit bullseye with the style he wanted his team to play, all successful teams this season hangs on to the puck allot, got bluelines that can move the puck, trys to play a controlled transition game. Last season allot of teams tryed to play like they did before the rulechanges, lifting out the puck, not handling it. Trying to minimize misstakes in their own end and in the neutralzone at all cost, at the expense of the offensive game, that didn't work, most of thoose teams pretty much only spent time in their own end and got run over.

Renney didn't have many quality players besides JJ and Lundqvist, thats a fact that we all can agree on, but I just don't get the argument that thoose two made our team? There aren't many teams in this league who could survive without their top 2 players. You talk about headstart, I don't get it.

Take away Hossa and Kovalchuk from ATL, Brodeur and Elias from NJD, Alfie, Spezza and Heatly from Ott, Richard, LeCav and MSL from Tampa, Crosby alone from Pitts, and all thoose teams would struggle, the list can be made long. Take away Mess and Richter from the 94' team, would Keenan have won a cup with that team with Nemchinov as his 1st line C and Healy in the net? He still had a ton of great players, but I wouldn't have called it easy to win a cup without thoose two.

We played well last season at times, had allot of weak stretches, but thats not strange since we pretty much had a expansion roster with Jagr, had started from scratch that season with only 3 returning players from the start of the season before... Its also takes 3-4 years for a coach who starts from scratch to implement his ideas. But for a vast majority of the time we actually outshoot the other team, and we all know how little we shoot the puck. That can't be credited on one forward and one goalie.

If Renney's job was easy last season, I don't know what to call the job of the other coaches who made the PO in the east? Hartleys team only out shoot that other team 45% of the time last season, and he had Hossa, Kovalchuk, Savard, Holik, Kozlov and co.

This season we have looked allot better after a weak start with a shaky Lundqvist, a onearmed Jagr, three banged up D's who really sucked, and a huge miscalculation that left us without a 4th line... Our defense is the best in the east 5 on 5, that says alot. We give up less shots on goal then NJD, that says allot. If Renney didn't do a good job last season, he sure as heck must be the most improved person in the game of Hockey this season.

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04-12-2007, 08:55 AM
  #90
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^^ When Fletch says last season, I believe he means 05-06, not 06-07.

Although sometimes that post seems like you're talking about last season and sometimes it seems like you're talking about this season.

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04-12-2007, 08:56 AM
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ola...

you may have to re-read my post. By last season I mean 2005/2006. Then I compared that to the beginning of this season (say first 3/4 of the season) and said when they didn't have those guys doing what they did the previous season, and had a similar game plan, the results were vastly different. I was pointing out the difference in having Jagr be Jagr and Lundqvist be Lundqvist, as opposed to Jagr and Lundqvist not being on. It makes a huge difference in a team. Just look at how this team performed with Lundqivst performing like a top 5 goalie and a middle-of-the-pack goalie this season. The defense and forwards had far greater balance this season than last, and made up for some of Jagr's slack and Renney did a good job with that. But honestly, one cannot deny the effect of having the most dangerous offensive weapon and a top goalie on your roster - it makes a coach's job much easier (oh, and even this season, when you know you're going to play Jagr 22 minutes per game and know the other team's focus is on Jagr, it helps you roll-out the other three lines).

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04-12-2007, 08:58 AM
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That's correct, tawnos...

sorry for the confusion...

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04-12-2007, 09:02 AM
  #93
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I don't disagree that Lundqvist's play has an enormous amount to do with our late season run. However, the fact is that the Rangers' defense (including forwards) started playing well at right about the same time that Lundqvist did, so it's hard to seperate the two. My problem with the first part of the season was that I didn't feel like we really had a complete set of lines... there were spare parts all over the place that weren't fitting together. When Hossa started emerging, then with the acquisition of Avery... all of the sudden we had solidity. That, combined with Lundqvist regaining his form, is where the season turned around. Note that what I'm talking about happened before the injuries started piling up.

Everyone wants to put weight on why this happened and why that happened. I think it was a combination of all things equally.

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04-12-2007, 09:16 AM
  #94
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tawnos...

I don't disagree that in the last 20 games or so this team looked like a team; one that can grind out wins, win battles, move the puck well and compete with the best of them, and that was a team effort. I loved the way the team looked, for the most part, down the stretch. With so many points coming in close games (many one-point games, both wins and OTLs/SOLs), a top-notch goaltender was needed, and with a narrow margin for error, this team likely doesn't get in the playoffs with many starting goalies in this league. I'm not taking anything away from Renney, as I'm pretty much done with that argument since we can spin these things most any way we choose depending on which side we're on, however, I was just pointing out what a top 5 goaltender can do for a team (as well as a top-flight winger) and how that can help a coach (the best coaches do have this too, so I'm not trying to slight Renney (except for his first season and a half -sorry, guess I couldn't stay away).

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04-12-2007, 09:22 AM
  #95
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I know you aren't trying to slight Renney, and I don't see it that way. Having a top 5 goalie helps enormously, no doubt. As overrated as I think Brodeur is, New Jersey doesn't win those Cups with Tommy Salo in net. Your last jibe at Renney... well, if you're going to give credit to Lundqvist for his part of the run, you've gotta foist some of the blame on Lundqvist for the beginning of the season too. He was overly aggressive, out of position, depositing rebounds in front of the net and had very few games where he kept the puck out with a big save. The way I saw it, he was stopping everything easy to moderately difficult but not the very difficult stuff.

This discussion is fun

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04-12-2007, 09:45 AM
  #96
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tawnos...

Lunqvist contributed to the early season woes of the Rangers...agreed...my point had been that better coaching could've mitigating his struggles in determining the eventual outcomes of many games...

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04-12-2007, 09:51 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
you may have to re-read my post. By last season I mean 2005/2006. Then I compared that to the beginning of this season (say first 3/4 of the season) and said when they didn't have those guys doing what they did the previous season, and had a similar game plan, the results were vastly different. I was pointing out the difference in having Jagr be Jagr and Lundqvist be Lundqvist, as opposed to Jagr and Lundqvist not being on. It makes a huge difference in a team. Just look at how this team performed with Lundqivst performing like a top 5 goalie and a middle-of-the-pack goalie this season. The defense and forwards had far greater balance this season than last, and made up for some of Jagr's slack and Renney did a good job with that. But honestly, one cannot deny the effect of having the most dangerous offensive weapon and a top goalie on your roster - it makes a coach's job much easier (oh, and even this season, when you know you're going to play Jagr 22 minutes per game and know the other team's focus is on Jagr, it helps you roll-out the other three lines).
Yeah, I understood that. Though, we still where in a PO spot, or close to one, without thoose players performing (early this season)...

My point is just that I don't think it makes sense to say that Renney's accomplishments are worth less since we got JJ and Lundy. All successful coaches got good rosters, right? We outshoot the other team something like 55% of the time last season, 05-06. Atlanta outshoot the other team 45% of the time, with a ton of stars.

Herb Brooks won Olympic Gold without a good roster, but besides him its really hard to find many examples of ****** teams that have won anything, and thoose how got anywhere all played a extremely defensive game in a era were that payed off more then anything else.

We just can't look at last years roster, take away JJ and Lundy, and say here Renney, win something with this team... How much cred doesn't Hartly still get for winning the cup with Roy, Blake, Bourque, Forsberg and Sakic among many many other stars.

Considering the circumstances, that we only had Kaspar, Tyutin and Orts on last years team who that started the season before that, that we pretty much only had guys who nobody else wanted, Renney did a heck of a job with that team, something I stated at the time too. Even when taking in account that he had JJ and Lundy.

We had JJ and Lundy, but other teams had Hossa, Kovalchuk and Savard, Alfie, Spezza, Heatly, Chara, Redden and Hasek, Gagne and Forsberg, Broudeur, Elias, Gomez and Gionta, Richard, LeCav and MSL -- you get my point. Sure, Renney probably had a easier job then Hanlon and Terrien, but defenitly not a easier job then the rest of the PO teams. We can't forget that he had to practically start from scratch.

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04-12-2007, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I know you aren't trying to slight Renney, and I don't see it that way. Having a top 5 goalie helps enormously, no doubt. As overrated as I think Brodeur is, New Jersey doesn't win those Cups with Tommy Salo in net. Your last jibe at Renney... well, if you're going to give credit to Lundqvist for his part of the run, you've gotta foist some of the blame on Lundqvist for the beginning of the season too. He was overly aggressive, out of position, depositing rebounds in front of the net and had very few games where he kept the puck out with a big save. The way I saw it, he was stopping everything easy to moderately difficult but not the very difficult stuff.

This discussion is fun
We also outshoot the other team 22 out of the last 28 games. Shot totals can be somewhat deciving, we doesn't shoot much, but we also gives up quite many huge chances, its hard to say what way that goes. But you could make the argument that we should have won 22 of thoose games with a "avg" goalie, like a Dipietro or Voukon.

There are also allot of factors that played a part in our early season struggle. Both Malik and Kaspar really sucked, Ozo sucked, Cullen couldn't handle the 2nd line center role, Prucha had a soapmore slump, our best kids wheren't ready, Lundqvist were really shaky, the players started to feel the pressure ect.

Nah I don't buy thoose arguments at all. JJ had allot of help last season. Our 3rd and 4th lines shifted the momentum on a game by game basis. We played a offensive style that gives players like him allot of room to play their style. Lundqvist had allot of help too, he faced less shots then the guy on the other side of the ice for the majority of the time.

If both thoose players had blown their knees in October we wouldn't have made the PO's, but I would bet anything that their isn't a coach out there who would have gotten last years team anything else then Eric Johnsson without thoose two players on the roster. Just like Ottawa wouldn't go anywhere without Alfie, Spezza and Heatly.

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