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Old
08-08-2014, 11:32 PM
  #76
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I'll say the same thing I keep saying about it, and about everyone else who says "**** you" to the system.... If everyone took the same initiative, the league would collapse. That system is there for a reason.
Really. A General who obtusely clings to dogma & doctrine, who wont change course continually ordering his troops into slaughter despite the losses loses the battle & ultimately the war.

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08-08-2014, 11:34 PM
  #77
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What?

What war?

There's a war going on?

Should every 1st overall say "I'm not going to play for said struggling franchise, I'm going to wait until they trade me to someplace where they'll shower me in adoration"?

The implication is that it's the "smart" thing to do, yeah?

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08-08-2014, 11:41 PM
  #78
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Should every 1st overall say "I'm not going to play for said struggling franchise, I'm going to wait until they trade me to someplace where they'll shower me in adoration"?
Where are you getting that from, that bit about receiving unearned adoration? Your premise is flawed.

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08-09-2014, 12:16 AM
  #79
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Where are you getting that from, that bit about receiving unearned adoration? Your premise is flawed.
Well it was certainly true in Lindros' case that he was primarily concerned with marketing - there was absolutely no reason to assume that he was going to get shafted on contract money with all the attention he was going to bring to hockey in Quebec. And we already know how things would've turned out in his case if he'd stayed on a hockey team with Sundin, Sakic, and Forsberg.

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08-09-2014, 12:39 AM
  #80
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Well it was certainly true in Lindros' case that he was primarily concerned with marketing - there was absolutely no reason to assume that he was going to get shafted on contract money with all the attention he was going to bring to hockey in Quebec. And we already know how things would've turned out in his case if he'd stayed on a hockey team with Sundin, Sakic, and Forsberg.
Ya, there was reason to assume that. Small market. Had he reported dutifully his earnings beyond his Contract wouldve been limited, a ceiling, capped. Had Montreal or any other Big Market team Drafted him no problem. This was really not so unusual at that time nor even previously but it was new for the NHL. Players had clauses in their Contracts, NFL, NBA & MLB no trades to Pittsburgh. Its a long story. But essentially no, had nothing to do with existing talent on the Diques, there was a "read" on Aubut that wasnt good, Snake, several factors.

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08-09-2014, 02:14 AM
  #81
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All expansion markets started out small.

The Flyers paid Lindros 3.5 for the first three years, something I doubt Quebec would've had too much trouble matching.

That would've nestled him right alongside all the aforementioned players for at least the 95 season on that salary, and I'm going to go ahead and say that those four players could've basically won the Cup by themselves in that shortened season.

And a Cup tends to help things.

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08-09-2014, 03:43 AM
  #82
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If everyone took the same initiative, the league would collapse.
If a league's existence is based on the attempt to take away freedom of choice from its (potential) employees then I'm not sure how that is more an argument against freedom of choice than an argument against the league.

That said, the league would not actually collapse, it would just change radically.

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All expansion markets started out small.
Quebec wasn't exactly an expansion market in 1991/1992.

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08-09-2014, 12:23 PM
  #83
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If a league's existence is based on the attempt to take away freedom of choice from its (potential) employees then I'm not sure how that is more an argument against freedom of choice than an argument against the league.

That said, the league would not actually collapse, it would just change radically.



Quebec wasn't exactly an expansion market in 1991/1992.

Theo, I'm sure you're aware of why leagues instituted the draft, and furthermore, the very long history of reserve clauses and other mechanisms that leagues employed to do exactly that-- restrict player rights in choosing for whom to play. Even today, something that is clearly an anti-competitive practice, is nevertheless allowed because it's nested within a collective bargaining process. (Entry draft, entry-level contract restrictions, and free agency conditions/terms.)

Would the leagues collapse? Some would say all the machinations that attempt to disperse talent and control costs (cap systems) enable viability for all members. Without it, you'd see all the top talent only wanting to play for the biggest and richest teams, thereby ruining competition and perhaps the very ability of teams to survive. (Sorry for going OT in this thread. We can move posts if the discussion warrants it.)

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08-09-2014, 01:00 PM
  #84
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... Sorry for going OT in this thread. We can move posts if the discussion warrants it.
Quite alright. I'll allow it to stand. For now.

Its' relevant to the discussion.

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08-09-2014, 01:07 PM
  #85
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Quite alright. I'll allow it to stand. For now.

Its' relevant to the discussion.

Ah, okay, thanks there, Killy. I was worried about getting in trouble with the mods.






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08-09-2014, 01:24 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Really. A General who obtusely clings to dogma & doctrine, who wont change course continually ordering his troops into slaughter despite the losses loses the battle & ultimately the war.
Never heard of Sir Douglas Haig, OBE, have you?

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08-09-2014, 01:34 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
If a league's existence is based on the attempt to take away freedom of choice from its (potential) employees then I'm not sure how that is more an argument against freedom of choice than an argument against the league.
This is utterly trite; it's like saying "why does the government limit my freedom by making it illegal to steal my neighbor's stuff".

We make some stuff against the rules because it's better for everyone, not just one person or one group.

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That said, the league would not actually collapse, it would just change radically.
Yeah, all parity would be lost and we'd go back to six teams.

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08-09-2014, 01:35 PM
  #88
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Never heard of Sir Douglas Haig, OBE, have you?
... Earl Haig Secondary School an arch rival of my old alma mater back in Toronto eons ago. A "tech school" that we'd deride rather snottishly. Fitting it be named after General Haig. So ya, indeed I have heard of & read about Sir Douglas Haig... Cavalry & Infantry men Sir. No time for these new fangled tanks. Merely a fad. Over the top Boys. Hoo-ah. 400,000 dead for a 10 mile gain at the Somme. Brilliant.

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08-09-2014, 06:43 PM
  #89
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Theo, I'm sure you're aware of why leagues instituted the draft, and furthermore, the very long history of reserve clauses and other mechanisms that leagues employed to do exactly that-- restrict player rights in choosing for whom to play.
Sure, it's easy to understand why the do it, but it's also easy to understand a player who doesn't like to be restricted in such manner.

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Would the leagues collapse? Some would say all the machinations that attempt to disperse talent and control costs (cap systems) enable viability for all members. Without it, you'd see all the top talent only wanting to play for the biggest and richest teams, thereby ruining competition and perhaps the very ability of teams to survive.
Leaving the question of competition law aside, from the viewpoint of individual choice the salary cap is not that much of an issue as opposed to the draft. The cap only limits your options when you make the choice to insist on a certain salary, that's up to you of course, while the draft categorically limits your options to one team and takes your choice away completely. (To be precise, one choice remains: the choice to not play in the NHL under the given conditions - which is what Lindros chose and which is now used as an argument against him. Therefore those who blame Lindros pretty much deny him the freedom of choice: they seem to believe you HAVE TO play in the NHL if you get drafted.)

So what would the league look like without the draft? Fewer teams, lesser parity. But just because some teams wouldn't survive doesn't mean the league wouldn't survive.

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it's like saying "why does the government limit my freedom by making it illegal to steal my neighbor's stuff".
Not sure why one would think of a private business enterprise like the NHL in the same way as one would think of public institutions. A hockey league surely doesn't have the same legal and moral entitlement to limit individual freedom as a government.

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Yeah, all parity would be lost and we'd go back to six teams.
Fewer teams for sure, but considerably more than six in all likeliness.

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08-09-2014, 06:55 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Sure, it's easy to understand why the do it, but it's also easy to understand a player who doesn't like to be restricted in such manner.
Indeed, and reserve clauses are actually an argument in favour of the reticent players, since in the WHA brouhaha the court called the reserve clause monopolistic and illegal.

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08-09-2014, 09:08 PM
  #91
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Sure, it's easy to understand why the do it, but it's also easy to understand a player who doesn't like to be restricted in such manner.
Doesn't this bypass the point that Cursed was trying to make (or at least that I think he was trying to make), that if all players acted as did Lindros, the system wouldn't really work?

Obviously, I know why players don't or even shouldn't like the draft, but the vast majority in all the sports choose to comply.

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Leaving the question of competition law aside, from the viewpoint of individual choice the salary cap is not that much of an issue as opposed to the draft. The cap only limits your options when you make the choice to insist on a certain salary, that's up to you of course, while the draft categorically limits your options to one team and takes your choice away completely. (To be precise, one choice remains: the choice to not play in the NHL under the given conditions - which is what Lindros chose and which is now used as an argument against him. Therefore those who blame Lindros pretty much deny him the freedom of choice: they seem to believe you HAVE TO play in the NHL if you get drafted.)
Here's what I said:
Some would say all the machinations that attempt to disperse talent and control costs (cap systems) enable viability for all members. Without it, you'd see all the top talent only wanting to play for the biggest and richest teams, thereby ruining competition and perhaps the very ability of teams to survive.
The cap and other machinations (Draft, ELC and free agency deferral) are all used to ensure competitiveness and some form of parity.

Leagues don't hold drafts just for fun, but to insure that all members have a somewhat equal footing in building teams. Sure, Lindros could have chosen not to play in the NHL, but seeing that the leagues are private businesses, it is up to them to decide the terms and conditions under which anyone is employed. It's something they value, ostensibly for the health of the league itself.

Would a ploy like Lindros's work today? I somehow doubt it. He was denied a choice that was denied to every other player in the league. Certainly, he had the choice to not play in the NHL, and I'm surprised that the league let him subvert the process the way he did. If you're saying the league bears the greater blame for letting him circumvent the process, then sure, I agree.

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So what would the league look like without the draft? Fewer teams, lesser parity. But just because some teams wouldn't survive doesn't mean the league wouldn't survive.
I agree, having long preferred a free market system, but knowing it may never happen.

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08-09-2014, 09:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Doesn't this bypass the point that Cursed was trying to make (or at least that I think he was trying to make), that if all players acted as did Lindros, the system wouldn't really work?

Obviously, I know why players don't or even shouldn't like the draft, but the vast majority in all the sports choose to comply.
Well, yes, if most players chose not to abide by the system imposed upon them, then said system would be ineffective. Most players choose to abide by it, and that's their prerogative. But those few that choose not to do not deserve to be derided as they have been in this thread.

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Sure, Lindros could have chosen not to play in the NHL, but seeing that the leagues are private businesses, it is up to them to decide the terms and conditions under which anyone is employed.
This is not how employment law works in North America. There are some things employers are barred from doing, for example, no matter how much they might want to, or how many people would be willing to accept employment under those conditions.

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08-09-2014, 10:13 PM
  #93
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Well, yes, if most players chose not to abide by the system imposed upon them, then said system would be ineffective. Most players choose to abide by it, and that's their prerogative. But those few that choose not to do not deserve to be derided as they have been in this thread.
I don't really care if they're derided or not. My point is that the system would cease to function as intended if more players chose to play by their own rules. It's not clear to me why the NHL at the time chose to accommodate Lindros, but I imagine that Bettman would not make the same decision.

The NHL is a private entity, after all, and the only rules they have to abide by are any labor or anti-trust laws. Beyond that, if a player chooses not to play in the NHL, that indeed is his prerogative. All teams agreed to a system that forces dispersion of talent by their own method versus allowing new entrants to pick teams-- or have those teams compete for their services on the free market.



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This is not how employment law works in North America. There are some things employers are barred from doing, for example, no matter how much they might want to, or how many people would be willing to accept employment under those conditions.
To which employment laws are you referring, specifically?

The NHL and the other leagues are on firm footing with regard to the draft system's legality, and any conditions thereafter that have been agreed to collectively. These are the only employment conditions relevant to the current discussion.

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08-09-2014, 10:57 PM
  #94
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Doesn't this bypass the point that Cursed was trying to make (or at least that I think he was trying to make), that if all players acted as did Lindros, the system wouldn't really work?
If that was his point then there is no disagreement since it's not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact. But he also wrote that 1) players like Lindros shouldn't have the bargaining power to bypass the system (=he sides with the system which is a statement of opinion as opposed to fact, fair enough but that's where the disagreement kicks in) and that 2) the league would collapse which I don't entirely agree with if you're talking about the draft.

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seeing that the leagues are private businesses, it is up to them to decide the terms and conditions under which anyone is employed.
Sure, but it's also up to Lindros whether he wants to get employed under those conditions. He choose to rather not play in the NHL. Fine for him and fine with me, but the public opinion throws him under the bus for it.

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If you're saying the league bears the greater blame for letting him circumvent the process, then sure, I agree.
If there is any blame at all then yes, the league is responsible for it. Of course that's not the way the story is told, not even by the ones who are oh so upset about the circumvention of the system. Why is that? Simple: they don't even think that far, they stop at the very moment Lindros decides to not go to the NHL instead of playing in Quebec. Because that's the real issue for them emotionally, that's Lindros' lapse in their eyes: the NHL called and he was not willing to answer unconditionally. What entitlement!

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The NHL and the other leagues are on firm footing with regard to the draft system's legality, and any conditions thereafter that have been agreed to collectively. These are the only employment conditions relevant to the current discussion.
If we're talking about legal relevance sure, but in reality the fact that it's an exceptionally restrictive system (compared to other fields of labour) is relevant too, especially in respect to the mind and interests of a highly talented player (who on top of everything has had no part in the collective bargaining process of course).

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08-09-2014, 11:31 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
<snip>

If we're talking about legal relevance sure, but in reality the fact that it's an exceptionally restrictive system (compared to other fields of labour) is relevant too, especially in respect to the mind and interests of a highly talented player (who on top of everything has had no part in the collective bargaining process of course).
This is where I see things differently. On a personal level, I think players should decertify their union and go the free market route. That said, no, I don't think that a highly talented player should have more freedom or more rights than any other player. None of the new entrants had a say in the collective bargaining process. In any case, I'm highly doubtful that such a ploy would work in Bettman's NHL, regardless of how any of us feel about the draft system and collective bargaining in pro sports.

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08-10-2014, 12:09 AM
  #96
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I don't really care if they're derided or not. My point is that the system would cease to function as intended if more players chose to play by their own rules.
And that's true, but trivial. If the system relies on players toeing the line, and they refuse to do so, then obviously the system will fail. But it's not up to each player to make sure the system functions as intended. Indeed, since the system is designed to take advantage of young players relative to veterans, I can't see rationally assigning any responsibility to the young players to uphold it.

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The NHL and the other leagues are on firm footing with regard to the draft system's legality, and any conditions thereafter that have been agreed to collectively. These are the only employment conditions relevant to the current discussion.
They've been agreed to collectively by players who have already been through the system, and most of who are now entitled to negotiate with whatever team they wish. The young players being drafted had no say whatsoever in the collective bargaining process.

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08-10-2014, 01:01 AM
  #97
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And that's true, but trivial.
Hardly trivial if it would change the face of the leagues.

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If the system relies on players toeing the line, and they refuse to do so, then obviously the system will fail. But it's not up to each player to make sure the system functions as intended. Indeed, since the system is designed to take advantage of young players relative to veterans, I can't see rationally assigning any responsibility to the young players to uphold it.

They've been agreed to collectively by players who have already been through the system, and most of who are now entitled to negotiate with whatever team they wish. The young players being drafted had no say whatsoever in the collective bargaining process.
The problem for draftees is that they are not yet in the league. The players who are employed by the teams in the league have decided to bargain with the leagues as a group. The leagues have agreed not to employ anyone who is not part of the union. The players (current employees) have agreed to the system in place.

That leaves new entrants/NHL'er wannabes with two options: 1) Accept the league's system and join the PA, or 2) Seek employment elsewhere.

They cannot have a voice in something of which they are not a part.

It's not about assigning a responsibility to them to uphold the system, it's about making a choice if they wish to work for said league, or go elsewhere.

As written above, I put more blame on the NHL for allowing Lindros to work around the draft, and honestly do not believe that would work in the same way today. If the PA valued individual rights to choose their destination, even at the outset, they'd make it a priority in a CBA, and/or decertify. Clearly, they don't seem to value it that greatly.

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08-10-2014, 04:48 PM
  #98
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Hardly trivial if it would change the face of the leagues.
I meant trivial in the sense that it's true by definition. Something that only works if everyone uses it will not work if not everyone uses it.

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That leaves new entrants/NHL'er wannabes with two options: 1) Accept the league's system and join the PA, or 2) Seek employment elsewhere.
This is exactly the sort of scenario that led to the WHA, and as I mentioned upthread, during the WHA debacle an appelate court called the NHL's business practices monopolistic and illegal. They have changed since then, of course, but the NHL needs young players as much as the players need the NHL. Perhaps more so. Players can earn a living playing hockey in a variety of leagues. What would become of the NHL if enough young players said "no thanks" and went elsewhere, such that the NHL was no longer the premier hockey league? Who suffers more then? How long would the NHL survive with only the players it currently has?

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08-10-2014, 06:40 PM
  #99
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Neal Broten probably deserves a mention - not because he didn't enjoy playing the game, but apparently he doesn't enjoy anything else to do with it. This article goes into it a good deal.

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Many former athletes exercise their right to shy away from the spotlight. But Broten didn't just stop participating in hockey; he says he hasn't spent a single passing moment keeping tabs on the game. He doesn't watch hockey, he doesn't read about hockey. He barely even talks about it.

"I don't really know anyone who is playing anymore in the NHL," Broten said. "I don't follow it very closely. I couldn't tell you who is in first place or who is in last place."

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