HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Winnipeg Jets
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Evaluate Chevy - Part III (mod warning post #104, #122)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-17-2014, 12:02 PM
  #301
Guardian17
Strong & Free
 
Guardian17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter368 View Post
We're way to good to get him, no way we can suck as bad as some of those of teams.
Then we must commence "Operation Vaccu-Suck"



Guardian17 is offline  
Old
08-17-2014, 01:57 PM
  #302
Hollywood3
Bison/Jet/Moose Fan
 
Hollywood3's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,086
vCash: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsFan815 View Post
I think you guys are being too negative on this season. Pavs will turn it around and post a .920 sv % season, all you have to do is BOLIEVE
Ha! Rainbows and Unicorns! I can see it coming for 2015-16.

Hollywood3 is online now  
Old
08-17-2014, 03:47 PM
  #303
Evil Little
Registered User
 
Evil Little's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,821
vCash: 1837
Here's what Cheveldayoff's plan for the last trade deadline may have looked like a week out [speculation alert]:

-Trade Jokinen as a rental, move O'Dell to 3rd line C
-Trade Setoguchi as a rental, cope just fine with the loss given the fact that he was--I seem to recall--healthily scratched a couple of times prior to that. Recoup a late 2nd, maybe a 3rd and avoid having fans complain about trading a 2nd for Setoguchi for months--years?--to come.

Then:

-Rental market falls apart. Jokinen goes from maybe a late 1st--despite a sizeable caphit and lack of playoff pedigree--to a 2nd? 3rd? Setoguchi goes from a 2nd/3rd to who knows what?
-Scheifele goes down for the season (making Jokinen a great deal less expendable, especially given the diminished value)


If there was a West Side Story trade in the works (rumoured to be Setoguchi, Thorburn for Kennedy, Burish, Sheppard, according to Lawless), I figured at the time they were looking at Seto and Thorburn was a throw-in. Pretty much all of the Sharks' offseason moves point to the notion that they were going after Thorburn and that Setoguchi would have been the throw-in.

So what happened that night--the same night Scheifele went down--with San Jose's head scout in the building? Setoguchi had a classic Setoguchi game--yawn--and Thorburn went and injured himself on Matt Martin's fists (classic Thorburn game?).

Subsequently, the proposed trade is seemingly killed, Cheveldayoff signs Mark Stuart for four years* and we begin months of hockey fans of all teams constantly moaning that Cheveldayoff doesn't know how to trade hockey players.

*This contract is currently holding third place in the Chevy's Worst Contract standings after P****** and Thorburn, but the timing of the deal suggests to me--along with the San Jose rumour--that Stuart and Thorburn both still hold trade value. Granted, Stuart's (modified) NTC diminishes said value a little, but I think that while it was probably given to save money, something like a five team no-trade list--I don't know what his NTC states--isn't going to tie the Jets' hands too much, and is almost nice to see granted to a loyal, intangible journeyman, no matter how lousy he is with the puck. I'd love to see Stuart traded if you can get value, but I also would like to see him land somewhere he wants (one of his top 25 choices, at least ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetkarma View Post
We all know the story for the Oduya trade , if he had caved the return would have been less. He knows what he is doing.
I don't think I do. Something exciting?

Evil Little is online now  
Old
08-17-2014, 04:09 PM
  #304
Evil Little
Registered User
 
Evil Little's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,821
vCash: 1837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Board Bard View Post
#3 -- Would this "valid management tactic" involve tarot cards or a crystal ball reader? How would they know, if they got into the playoffs, that they would be worse next year? In fact I think the natural assumption would be that they'd turned a corner for the better.

If that is the Jets' plan, then yes, it is "as crazy as it sounds."
Yup. Strategically priorizing upgrades is sorcery.

Evil Little is online now  
Old
08-17-2014, 05:21 PM
  #305
Mortimer Snerd
Free Pavelec
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,468
vCash: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy View Post
Here's what Cheveldayoff's plan for the last trade deadline may have looked like a week out [speculation alert]:

-Trade Jokinen as a rental, move O'Dell to 3rd line C
-Trade Setoguchi as a rental, cope just fine with the loss given the fact that he was--I seem to recall--healthily scratched a couple of times prior to that. Recoup a late 2nd, maybe a 3rd and avoid having fans complain about trading a 2nd for Setoguchi for months--years?--to come.

Then:

-Rental market falls apart. Jokinen goes from maybe a late 1st--despite a sizeable caphit and lack of playoff pedigree--to a 2nd? 3rd? Setoguchi goes from a 2nd/3rd to who knows what?
-Scheifele goes down for the season (making Jokinen a great deal less expendable, especially given the diminished value)


If there was a West Side Story trade in the works (rumoured to be Setoguchi, Thorburn for Kennedy, Burish, Sheppard, according to Lawless), I figured at the time they were looking at Seto and Thorburn was a throw-in. Pretty much all of the Sharks' offseason moves point to the notion that they were going after Thorburn and that Setoguchi would have been the throw-in.

So what happened that night--the same night Scheifele went down--with San Jose's head scout in the building? Setoguchi had a classic Setoguchi game--yawn--and Thorburn went and injured himself on Matt Martin's fists (classic Thorburn game?).

Subsequently, the proposed trade is seemingly killed, Cheveldayoff signs Mark Stuart for four years* and we begin months of hockey fans of all teams constantly moaning that Cheveldayoff doesn't know how to trade hockey players.

*This contract is currently holding third place in the Chevy's Worst Contract standings after P****** and Thorburn, but the timing of the deal suggests to me--along with the San Jose rumour--that Stuart and Thorburn both still hold trade value. Granted, Stuart's (modified) NTC diminishes said value a little, but I think that while it was probably given to save money, something like a five team no-trade list--I don't know what his NTC states--isn't going to tie the Jets' hands too much, and is almost nice to see granted to a loyal, intangible journeyman, no matter how lousy he is with the puck. I'd love to see Stuart traded if you can get value, but I also would like to see him land somewhere he wants (one of his top 25 choices, at least ).



I don't think I do. Something exciting?
I don't think there was ever a chance of getting a 1st, even a very late 1st for Joker but a 3rd for him and even a 5th for Seto would have been huge compared to what we got.

Either Kennedy or Sheppard for Seto & Thorbs would have been a huge win although from the comments in the FP some people don't thinks so and Lawless really likes Thor. Too bad it fell through but as you describe it I can't blame Chevy.

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
08-18-2014, 12:17 PM
  #306
indigobuffalo
Portage and Main
 
indigobuffalo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg MB
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,893
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsFan815
I think you guys are being too negative on this season. Pavs will turn it around and post a .920 sv % season, all you have to do is BOLIEVE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
Ha! Rainbows and Unicorns! I can see it coming for 2015-16.
It's not that crazy. Pavelec is top 3 over the last 3 seasons in average ice-time per season.

I would think that if that could be reduced to a roughly 60/40 split between Pavelec and the backup (probably Hutch), then there is no reason to believe his number can't make a resurgence.

At the very least, people should have an optimistic/hopeful outlook, because it really can't get any worse.

indigobuffalo is offline  
Old
08-18-2014, 12:28 PM
  #307
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 21,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
I don't think there was ever a chance of getting a 1st, even a very late 1st for Joker but a 3rd for him and even a 5th for Seto would have been huge compared to what we got.

Either Kennedy or Sheppard for Seto & Thorbs would have been a huge win although from the comments in the FP some people don't thinks so and Lawless really likes Thor. Too bad it fell through but as you describe it I can't blame Chevy.
I'm not sure that getting Kennedy or Sheppard would be a "huge win" for the Jets in the medium to longer term. They might help out the bottom of our 3rd line and 4th line, but they are both UFAs after this year so it would just be a stop-gap until prospects are ready to take those roles. Kennedy makes about twice what Thorbs is making.

I hate that we lost a 2nd round pick for one year of Seto, but I can't get bothered that we didn't pick up a couple of bottom line rentals.

Whileee is offline  
Old
08-18-2014, 12:36 PM
  #308
Mortimer Snerd
Free Pavelec
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,468
vCash: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
It's not that crazy. Pavelec is top 3 over the last 3 seasons in average ice-time per season.

I would think that if that could be reduced to a roughly 60/40 split between Pavelec and the backup (probably Hutch), then there is no reason to believe his number can't make a resurgence.

At the very least, people should have an optimistic/hopeful outlook, because it really can't get any worse.
It could get worse, in any of several ways. Pavs has 1 good season convincing Chevy that he has been right all along and Pavs is a great goaltender justifying continuing to keep him. That would be worse. Or simply having a .899 sv% instead of .901 would be worse. Pavs played a lower % of games last year and it didn't improve his sv%. If a lighter workload produced a higher sv% then all the backups would have better numbers than the starters. Or, more likely all the coaches would ensure that their starters played less and got more rest.

If you want to be optimistic and hopeful I suggest you either hope that Pavs reverts to career average, slightly better .906 or that Hutch just takes the job away by the strength of his play.

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
08-19-2014, 08:45 PM
  #309
paul-laus
Registered User
 
paul-laus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 274
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
It could get worse, in any of several ways. Pavs has 1 good season convincing Chevy that he has been right all along and Pavs is a great goaltender justifying continuing to keep him. That would be worse. Or simply having a .899 sv% instead of .901 would be worse. Pavs played a lower % of games last year and it didn't improve his sv%. If a lighter workload produced a higher sv% then all the backups would have better numbers than the starters. Or, more likely all the coaches would ensure that their starters played less and got more rest.

If you want to be optimistic and hopeful I suggest you either hope that Pavs reverts to career average, slightly better .906 or that Hutch just takes the job away by the strength of his play.



The fact that people on these boards are now even accepting of the fact that Hutchinson and O'Dell are primed to snatch full time NHL spots suggests to me just how fruitless this off season has been for the franchise. "Hey great news! I heard the jets just hired another statistician!...."

paul-laus is offline  
Old
08-19-2014, 09:05 PM
  #310
ps241
Gordie Baby ❤️
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 18,186
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul-laus View Post
[/B][/I][/U]

The fact that people on these boards are now even accepting of the fact that Hutchinson and O'Dell are primed to snatch full time NHL spots suggests to me just how fruitless this off season has been for the franchise. "Hey great news! I heard the jets just hired another statistician!...."
Players do transition from the AHL no?

ps241 is online now  
Old
08-19-2014, 10:29 PM
  #311
paul-laus
Registered User
 
paul-laus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 274
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Players do transition from the AHL no?
Agreed. Paul Postma and Grant Clitsome transitioned from the AHL too. And they are currently in our top six-seven just ahead of a mannequin and a crash test dummy.... As I've said all summer, build from within and stay the course but still augment your roster with legitimate NHL players via signings. The Jets fail in this area continuously. To put things into perspective, a guy like kings forward Scott Fraser would be useful as a vet with two cup wins, but why would the jets want a player like that when management have got such grand aspirations of more waiver claims in the James Wright and Eric Tangradi mold? Players available at this point are likely just trying to catch onto an NHL roster and the nobody wants to play in Winnipeg loses significant strength....

paul-laus is offline  
Old
08-22-2014, 10:18 PM
  #312
Mortimer Snerd
Free Pavelec
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,468
vCash: 190
I never once mentioned "Do the current core members of the Winnipeg Jets approve of their GM's inactivity?" in my reply to Whileee's post so I have pasted it in here where I think it better belongs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
MS, you and others keep on slagging the Jets for not yet making a big trade this off-season. Take a quick look at the cap situation for most NHL teams. More than half couldn't trade for a Buff or Kane without sending back significant salary (i.e. not prospects, picks or young players). I am pretty sure that if the Jets trade a core vet, that's what they'll want in return. The teams with cap space are looking for the same things as the Jets (picks / prospects).

The Jets have transitioned a very good AHL goalie who took his team to the Calder Cup final. He played 3 games in the NHL (1.64 GAA and .943 SV%). You and others might not see that as good as signing a guy like Greiss, or trying to get into a bidding war for Halak with a team that is more desperate than the Jets (and the Jets would almost certainly have had to overpay), but that's not "doing nothing". They didn't buy out Pavelec. Big deal. I wonder when folks are going to get over that.
You are sure putting a lot of words in my mouth. You are not the only one. I've seen a lot of that recently in this particular debate.
"They could now trade from a position of much greater strength but will they? They could have, maybe should have done some trading this off-season. They still might but it doesn't look good so far." That is what I said about trading in the post you are replying to. It was in direct response to another post making something of the (claimed) fact that the Jets could now trade from a position of strength as evidence of the organizations progress. If we are to accept that claim as valid then where is the proof? The proof would be a trade. You call that slagging? I don't buy your cap strapped argument. 16 of the 29 other teams could take on either Kane or Buff by sending back $1 mil or less. Most of those could do it without sending anything back. Most of the others could probably find a way if they really wanted a player or the Jets could take back significant salary to make a deal work. There is at least some potential for trade with ALL 29 other teams. That said it only takes 1 partner to make a trade. I am disappointed that they haven't made a good trade but I am not slagging anyone over that. I prefer no trade to a bad one but I am in agreement with the poster I was replying to who was (Oh look) you. The Jets are now in a position to trade from (relative) strength. Which is why I wanted and expected to see 1 good trade. The truth is (and I have said exactly the same before) there is no IMMEDIATE need for any trade. It is not a current 'must do'. There are at least 2 trade NEEDS on the horizon, maybe 3. Frolik if he does not resign, Kane if he really wants out and doesn't change his mind (plenty of time on that one) and both Buff and Ladd before they lose their market value. I lean toward trading Buff and extending Ladd but I would be OK with extending Buff too. I am not OK with waiting too long and having them walk or be traded cheap as pending UFA rentals. I think now is the time to start transitioning our older (not yet old) core 1 player at a time but I have no problem with waiting a while to get a good deal.

They have NOT transitioned an AHL goalie. They appear to be about to. It is not a done deal yet. They did not need to sign Greiss or Halak although either would have been good. They could have kept Montoya for about the same as what Greiss got and a lot less than Halak. I think Hutch will be better than Greiss. Not buying out Pavelec is doing nothing. He is still here, in the way, getting overpaid. Sign Monty 7-8 months ago. 2 years at $1 mil/yr. Buyout Pavs, pocket the savings (~ .5mil/yr). Bring in Hutch and let him transition into the starting role as he is able. They didn't buyout Pavs, YES big deal. That I slagg Chevy over. I will calm down over it when Pavs is gone or when he somehow turns into a good NHL goalie. 2 years from now or 3 years or 5 years from now when we are 'evaluating Chevy' and saying how wonderful he is and how glad we are that Chipman hired him it will still be at the top of the list of his negatives when we are making a list. By then it may be massively outweighed by his drafting genius and trading brilliance but it will still top the list. If there is a worse mistake on the list anywhere I doubt very much he will still be an NHL GM.

Mortimer Snerd is online now  
Old
08-22-2014, 11:16 PM
  #313
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 21,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
I never once mentioned "Do the current core members of the Winnipeg Jets approve of their GM's inactivity?" in my reply to Whileee's post so I have pasted it in here where I think it better belongs.



You are sure putting a lot of words in my mouth. You are not the only one. I've seen a lot of that recently in this particular debate.
"They could now trade from a position of much greater strength but will they? They could have, maybe should have done some trading this off-season. They still might but it doesn't look good so far." That is what I said about trading in the post you are replying to. It was in direct response to another post making something of the (claimed) fact that the Jets could now trade from a position of strength as evidence of the organizations progress. If we are to accept that claim as valid then where is the proof? The proof would be a trade. You call that slagging? I don't buy your cap strapped argument. 16 of the 29 other teams could take on either Kane or Buff by sending back $1 mil or less. Most of those could do it without sending anything back. Most of the others could probably find a way if they really wanted a player or the Jets could take back significant salary to make a deal work. There is at least some potential for trade with ALL 29 other teams. That said it only takes 1 partner to make a trade. I am disappointed that they haven't made a good trade but I am not slagging anyone over that. I prefer no trade to a bad one but I am in agreement with the poster I was replying to who was (Oh look) you. The Jets are now in a position to trade from (relative) strength. Which is why I wanted and expected to see 1 good trade. The truth is (and I have said exactly the same before) there is no IMMEDIATE need for any trade. It is not a current 'must do'. There are at least 2 trade NEEDS on the horizon, maybe 3. Frolik if he does not resign, Kane if he really wants out and doesn't change his mind (plenty of time on that one) and both Buff and Ladd before they lose their market value. I lean toward trading Buff and extending Ladd but I would be OK with extending Buff too. I am not OK with waiting too long and having them walk or be traded cheap as pending UFA rentals. I think now is the time to start transitioning our older (not yet old) core 1 player at a time but I have no problem with waiting a while to get a good deal.

They have NOT transitioned an AHL goalie. They appear to be about to. It is not a done deal yet. They did not need to sign Greiss or Halak although either would have been good. They could have kept Montoya for about the same as what Greiss got and a lot less than Halak. I think Hutch will be better than Greiss. Not buying out Pavelec is doing nothing. He is still here, in the way, getting overpaid. Sign Monty 7-8 months ago. 2 years at $1 mil/yr. Buyout Pavs, pocket the savings (~ .5mil/yr). Bring in Hutch and let him transition into the starting role as he is able. They didn't buyout Pavs, YES big deal. That I slagg Chevy over. I will calm down over it when Pavs is gone or when he somehow turns into a good NHL goalie. 2 years from now or 3 years or 5 years from now when we are 'evaluating Chevy' and saying how wonderful he is and how glad we are that Chipman hired him it will still be at the top of the list of his negatives when we are making a list. By then it may be massively outweighed by his drafting genius and trading brilliance but it will still top the list. If there is a worse mistake on the list anywhere I doubt very much he will still be an NHL GM.
I just think that your concerns are premature. Chevy hasn't made a big trade of a core player, but neither has he missed any important windows to do so, as you have pointed out. My point is that I can understand why there hasn't been a good opportunity yet (because of the shrinking cap), and I am of the opinion that the draft is perhaps the worst time to trade a core player if you are trying to get draft picks back. If you look at the teams that could take on a core player from the Jets in a trade (for picks / prospects) they are mostly teams that are also looking to build through the draft and develop mode right now. Just because you can find one trade partner doesn't mean that you are maximizing your asset in a trade.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if the Jets don't save money by buying out Pavs. It's their money and I don't think they would have reduced the cost of my tickets if they had bought out Pavs. They aren't struggling with the cap and I don't want them to just get cap space so that they can waste it on a temporary UFA solution that clogs up the opportunities for upcoming prospects.

I'm not a fan of Greiss. At the same age as Pavs has been over the past few years Greiss was struggling to maintain a 0.900 save percentage in the AHL. I don't think we had any realistic chance of out-bidding the Isles for Halak, particularly since I expect he preferred NY. I'm pretty sure that if Maurice really liked Montoya and wanted to keep him, Chevy would have re-signed him. You can put a lot of that decision on Maurice's shoulders. I think it's very clear that Maurice and the Jets' entire hockey staff think that Hutch will be a better choice this year than Montoya. I like what Montoya did the past couple of years as a back-up, but I'm not convinced he's the answer as a starting goalie.

Whileee is offline  
Old
08-23-2014, 12:03 AM
  #314
Unholy goalie
Registered User
 
Unholy goalie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 404
vCash: 500
I don't think that many organisations are as open to dealing with the Jets as others. I think that Chevy has been pretty complacent, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that it might be harder to negotiate from Winnipeg's position (generally).

That said, he should have bought out Pavelec without a question.

Statistically, any replacement goalie would have had a better shot.. including Greiss.

Unholy goalie is offline  
Old
08-23-2014, 10:16 AM
  #315
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 21,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketHoquet View Post
I don't think that many organisations are as open to dealing with the Jets as others. I think that Chevy has been pretty complacent, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in that it might be harder to negotiate from Winnipeg's position (generally).

That said, he should have bought out Pavelec without a question.

Statistically, any replacement goalie would have had a better shot.. including Greiss.
The question isn't whether Greiss would be a better option than Pavs so much as whether he would be better than Hutchinson. Would you rather give 28-year old Greiss the starting position on the Jets, or 24-year old Hutchinson? The Jets obviously believe that Hutchinson is a better choice. He certainly has a much better resume at the AHL level than Greiss ever did.

Your suggestion that other organizations are less open to dealing with the Jets than others is frankly very odd and completely without evidence, and suggests a rather negative bias in your perspective on Chevy.

Whileee is offline  
Old
08-23-2014, 10:44 AM
  #316
CaptainChef
Registered User
 
CaptainChef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bedroom Jetsville
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I just think that your concerns are premature. Chevy hasn't made a big trade of a core player, but neither has he missed any important windows to do so, as you have pointed out. My point is that I can understand why there hasn't been a good opportunity yet (because of the shrinking cap), and I am of the opinion that the draft is perhaps the worst time to trade a core player if you are trying to get draft picks back. If you look at the teams that could take on a core player from the Jets in a trade (for picks / prospects) they are mostly teams that are also looking to build through the draft and develop mode right now. Just because you can find one trade partner doesn't mean that you are maximizing your asset in a trade.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if the Jets don't save money by buying out Pavs. It's their money and I don't think they would have reduced the cost of my tickets if they had bought out Pavs. They aren't struggling with the cap and I don't want them to just get cap space so that they can waste it on a temporary UFA solution that clogs up the opportunities for upcoming prospects.

I'm not a fan of Greiss. At the same age as Pavs has been over the past few years Greiss was struggling to maintain a 0.900 save percentage in the AHL. I don't think we had any realistic chance of out-bidding the Isles for Halak, particularly since I expect he preferred NY. I'm pretty sure that if Maurice really liked Montoya and wanted to keep him, Chevy would have re-signed him. You can put a lot of that decision on Maurice's shoulders. I think it's very clear that Maurice and the Jets' entire hockey staff think that Hutch will be a better choice this year than Montoya. I like what Montoya did the past couple of years as a back-up, but I'm not convinced he's the answer as a starting goalie.
Your response to Mortimers excellent points just makes no sense. How do you really feel about trades - not needed? the fact that we have not had a real player for player trade made in all the time Chevy has been GM despite us being a terrible team is not a biggy? the fact that we have guys that we need to make big decisions with ASAP (Frolic, Buff, Ladd, and to a lesser degree Kane if he really wants out -- which I say he does based on his actions); no problem right? We have a GM here that is a good negotiator and will make timely decisions and trade in a timely fashion if they are not going to resign right?

And then we get your response to our tending situation. No biggy that they are wasting all that money for the next three years on a goaltender that doesn't even have the credentials of a decent backup right? They could have got anybody through FA or the KHL to replace him (or resigned Montoya), brought in Hutch as a backup and really shown some initiative there, but who cares -- they don't really need that $ or wouldn't use it wisely anyway is your response. It wouldn't get me cheaper tickets so its not needed.

Ever wonder what an extra 1 mil a year to play with in the Frolic negotiations might have done? He'd probably be signed long-term and be a happy productive player going into the season rather than an impending UFA -- and those of us who have lost faith in Chevy don't have confidence that he will be able to get a good result in this one anyway.

Oh well, start the season already, I'm sure some big moves from Chevy are just around the corner.

[mod]


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 08-23-2014 at 11:31 AM. Reason: OT
CaptainChef is online now  
Old
08-23-2014, 11:08 AM
  #317
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 21,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by troubabooster View Post
Your response to Mortimers excellent points just makes no sense. How do you really feel about trades - not needed? the fact that we have not had a real player for player trade made in all the time Chevy has been GM despite us being a terrible team is not a biggy? the fact that we have guys that we need to make big decisions with ASAP (Frolic, Buff, Ladd, and to a lesser degree Kane if he really wants out -- which I say he does based on his actions); no problem right? We have a GM here that is a good negotiator and will make timely decisions and trade in a timely fashion if they are not going to resign right?

And then we get your response to our tending situation. No biggy that they are wasting all that money for the next three years on a goaltender that doesn't even have the credentials of a decent backup right? They could have got anybody through FA or the KHL to replace him (or resigned Montoya), brought in Hutch as a backup and really shown some initiative there, but who cares -- they don't really need that $ or wouldn't use it wisely anyway is your response. It wouldn't get me cheaper tickets so its not needed.

Ever wonder what an extra 1 mil a year to play with in the Frolic negotiations might have done? He'd probably be signed long-term and be a happy productive player going into the season rather than an impending UFA -- and those of us who have lost faith in Chevy don't have confidence that he will be able to get a good result in this one anyway.

Oh well, start the season already, I'm sure some big moves from Chevy are just around the corner.

BTW so happy to see the pop-up Polaris back today.
I've said a bunch of times that I think that the Jets will likely have to move older core players to transition to a younger core. How many more times would you like me to say it? All that I've said is that I can understand that such a trade has not been made yet because the shrinking cap has made it difficult to make those types of trades. I've said that I'll be as harsh as anyone on Chevy if he misses the boat, but that he hasn't missed that boat yet. MS and I actually agree on this. Making a hurried trade when the market is not conducive is not "timely", it is premature and unwise. I refuse to get wound up about it just because some fans are impatient, and I don't think it has any bearing on whether Chevy is a "good trader" or not.

I already indicated that I don't think Montoya (or a KHL replacement) was the long-term solution, and I'm much happier having Hutchinson as the heir-apparent than Greiss. You suggest that the extra money could have just been thrown at Frolik in negotiations, without any knowledge about what he was asking or how it fits with the Jets salary structure. I certainly don't want Chevy to start throwing around over-priced contracts just because he made some room in his budget for it. You have absolutely no evidence that Chevy won't be able to work out a contract with Frolik. In fact, all the evidence points to the fact that Chevy is a very good negotiator, having come to very good contract agreements with Ladd, Bogo, Kane, Wheeler and Little. He's signed Perreault as a UFA. Somehow he is a capable contract negotiator for all of those players, but we should panic because you and some other fans "don't have confidence" in his negotiating abilities.

I agree. Let's get the season started. These hand-wringing threads are getting tiresome.

Whileee is offline  
Old
08-23-2014, 12:42 PM
  #318
CaptainChef
Registered User
 
CaptainChef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bedroom Jetsville
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I've said a bunch of times that I think that the Jets will likely have to move older core players to transition to a younger core. How many more times would you like me to say it? All that I've said is that I can understand that such a trade has not been made yet because the shrinking cap has made it difficult to make those types of trades. I've said that I'll be as harsh as anyone on Chevy if he misses the boat, but that he hasn't missed that boat yet. MS and I actually agree on this. Making a hurried trade when the market is not conducive is not "timely", it is premature and unwise. I refuse to get wound up about it just because some fans are impatient, and I don't think it has any bearing on whether Chevy is a "good trader" or not.

I already indicated that I don't think Montoya (or a KHL replacement) was the long-term solution, and I'm much happier having Hutchinson as the heir-apparent than Greiss. You suggest that the extra money could have just been thrown at Frolik in negotiations, without any knowledge about what he was asking or how it fits with the Jets salary structure. I certainly don't want Chevy to start throwing around over-priced contracts just because he made some room in his budget for it. You have absolutely no evidence that Chevy won't be able to work out a contract with Frolik. In fact, all the evidence points to the fact that Chevy is a very good negotiator, having come to very good contract agreements with Ladd, Bogo, Kane, Wheeler and Little. He's signed Perreault as a UFA. Somehow he is a capable contract negotiator for all of those players, but we should panic because you and some other fans "don't have confidence" in his negotiating abilities.

I agree. Let's get the season started. These hand-wringing threads are getting tiresome.
OK we agree on some things - that some of the existing core needs to be "moved". I'm hoping by moved you mean traded - not lost to free agency. Its that aspect, and the patience talk, that really is scary. As I indicated, we are the only team that hasn't made a player for player trade in over 3 years -- thats scary. Yes, there are always issues including cap concerns that make these deals difficult, but other GMs find a way to make it happen. Our GM gets excused because its too hard to convince someone to come to Wpg or it doesn't work into the cap. Your fear of him ever making a "hurried trade" is so far from reality as to be laughable.

Is Chevy a good negotiator? I'd say the jury is far from out on this one. yes, his contracts with the big 5 you mention seem in the ballpark - all were high initially but now seem quite affordable. But then you get the ridiculous Pavs contract which was tons too much (and was shown to be at least 1.5 mill per year too much based on his performance when he was signed). Thorbs -- well the amount on that one plus the length are head scratchers all the way. In fact its been demonstrated that we have far too great a % spent on our collective bottom 6 and our vast number of also-ran defensemen (the big group of #5-9 defensemen that we have signed up). So saying he has demonstrated anything as a negotiator is far from the truth -- at best he might be getting by, at worst he'd get a D grade from many for his demonstrated negotiation skills to date.

Now, you continue to throw around the thought that we had little option for a replacement for Pavs other than Greiss, Halek or Montoya. While any and all would have been suitable replacements at the right price, there were a tons of other options out there (any one of which would have been at least as good as Pavs at a fraction of the cost. Thats the $ we needed to recoup. Thats the $ that would have allowed Frolic to get resigned. Sure, maybe Frolic wanted way too much and it didn't make sense, because I do agree with you that you can't pay him more than your big stars and I agree that you don't need to be overspending on free agents either. But that was the one and only big resigning that Chevy had to this summer and he essentially failed at that one as well


Last edited by CaptainChef: 08-23-2014 at 01:08 PM.
CaptainChef is online now  
Old
08-23-2014, 01:49 PM
  #319
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 21,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by troubabooster View Post
OK we agree on some things - that some of the existing core needs to be "moved". I'm hoping by moved you mean traded - not lost to free agency. Its that aspect, and the patience talk, that really is scary. As I indicated, we are the only team that hasn't made a player for player trade in over 3 years -- thats scary. Yes, there are always issues including cap concerns that make these deals difficult, but other GMs find a way to make it happen. Our GM gets excused because its too hard to convince someone to come to Wpg or it doesn't work into the cap. Your fear of him ever making a "hurried trade" is so far from reality as to be laughable.

Is Chevy a good negotiator? I'd say the jury is far from out on this one. yes, his contracts with the big 5 you mention seem in the ballpark - all were high initially but now seem quite affordable. But then you get the ridiculous Pavs contract which was tons too much (and was shown to be at least 1.5 mill per year too much based on his performance when he was signed). Thorbs -- well the amount on that one plus the length are head scratchers all the way. In fact its been demonstrated that we have far too great a % spent on our collective bottom 6 and our vast number of also-ran defensemen (the big group of #5-9 defensemen that we have signed up). So saying he has demonstrated anything as a negotiator is far from the truth -- at best he might be getting by, at worst he'd get a D grade from many for his demonstrated negotiation skills to date.

Now, you continue to throw around the thought that we had little option for a replacement for Pavs other than Greiss, Halek or Montoya. While any and all would have been suitable replacements at the right price, there were a tons of other options out there (any one of which would have been at least as good as Pavs at a fraction of the cost. Thats the $ we needed to recoup. Thats the $ that would have allowed Frolic to get resigned. Sure, maybe Frolic wanted way too much and it didn't make sense, because I do agree with you that you can't pay him more than your big stars and I agree that you don't need to be overspending on free agents either. But that was the one and only big resigning that Chevy had to this summer and he essentially failed at that one as well
You think he Chevy in previous contracts, and now you think he couldn't sign Frolik because he didn't offer enough, because the money was tied up in Pavs contract.

Please list a fraction of the "tons" of options for a goalie that could have been acquired without giving up important assets, and would have been clearly better than Hutchinson.

Regarding the "overpaying" of the bottom six, the collective salary of:

Slater, Thorburn, Tangradi, Halischuk, Peluso, O'Dell and Galiardi... ($5.46 million). Average salary = $872,860. If we paid ALL of these 7 players the league minimum, we would save a total of about $2.2 million in salary.

Others in our "bottom six" would include Kane / Buff and Perreault.

Most of our "vast" number of lower end defensemen will end up playing in the AHL. All except Stuart or Clitsome are making well under $1 million a year (NHL salary). I suppose you could argue that Stuart is overpaid, but that doesn't mean Chevy is a "bad negotiator". I expect that Stuart could command that sort of salary on the open market. Have a quick look at this list of UFA signings... (http://www.capgeek.com/ufa-tracker/).

Whileee is offline  
Old
08-23-2014, 02:28 PM
  #320
CaptainChef
Registered User
 
CaptainChef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bedroom Jetsville
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,088
vCash: 500
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2014/...litsome-slater
The Jets have good value contracts in their top six forwards and their top pairing defencemen, but the lower half of their roster is out of whack with other teams who are not budget teams. It isn't the top guys that is the problem, it is the fact that the Jets have Eric Tangradi, Anthony Peluso, Jim Slater, and Chris Thorburn as fourth line guys, blocking a spot for an AHL guy, who would be cheaper, for no reason.

Then there is the defence. Instead of giving Zach Redmond a shot, Chevy decided to stay with old faithful Mark Stuart for $2 625 000/year while paying Grant Clitsome $2 066 667/year. While the Jets have gotten and continue to get great value out of some of their forwards, their defence features some highly problematic contracts that, when combined with an internal budget, may lead to forcing Josh Morrissey into the lineup before he is ready for the minutes that the Jets will need him to play due to poor planning on their part. The Jets currently have 9.39% of their cap tied up in defencemen that will ideally occupy spots 5-8, not 4-7

CaptainChef is online now  
Old
08-23-2014, 02:35 PM
  #321
CaptainChef
Registered User
 
CaptainChef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bedroom Jetsville
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,088
vCash: 500
As for all the names of goalies that were suggested as suitable replacements for Pavs at a fraction of the cost, I'm not going to revisit all those discussions that went on in the Pav's threads this past spring. Suffice it to say there were at least 20 mentioned and some of the names were KHL goalies any of which has much more impressive credentials than any Pavs has displayed during his last three years here

CaptainChef is online now  
Old
08-23-2014, 02:38 PM
  #322
Aavco Cup
Registered User
 
Aavco Cup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 19,790
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by troubabooster View Post
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2014/...litsome-slater
The Jets have good value contracts in their top six forwards and their top pairing defencemen, but the lower half of their roster is out of whack with other teams who are not budget teams. It isn't the top guys that is the problem, it is the fact that the Jets have Eric Tangradi, Anthony Peluso, Jim Slater, and Chris Thorburn as fourth line guys, blocking a spot for an AHL guy, who would be cheaper, for no reason.

Then there is the defence. Instead of giving Zach Redmond a shot, Chevy decided to stay with old faithful Mark Stuart for $2 625 000/year while paying Grant Clitsome $2 066 667/year. While the Jets have gotten and continue to get great value out of some of their forwards, their defence features some highly problematic contracts that, when combined with an internal budget, may lead to forcing Josh Morrissey into the lineup before he is ready for the minutes that the Jets will need him to play due to poor planning on their part. The Jets currently have 9.39% of their cap tied up in defencemen that will ideally occupy spots 5-8, not 4-7
Redmond plays RHD. He was never fighting for a spot with Clitsome and Stuart who play LHD. The only one who can force Morrissey to play this year is Morrissey. His play will determine it. Some of us are worried those contracts will force him back to junior even if he is ready.

Peluso 562K
Tangradi 675k
Thorburn 1.2m
Slater 1.6m

How is that out of whack? OK maybethorburn, but as a whole that's not a lot of $

Aavco Cup is online now  
Old
08-23-2014, 02:56 PM
  #323
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 21,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by troubabooster View Post
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2014/...litsome-slater
The Jets have good value contracts in their top six forwards and their top pairing defencemen, but the lower half of their roster is out of whack with other teams who are not budget teams. It isn't the top guys that is the problem, it is the fact that the Jets have Eric Tangradi, Anthony Peluso, Jim Slater, and Chris Thorburn as fourth line guys, blocking a spot for an AHL guy, who would be cheaper, for no reason.

Then there is the defence. Instead of giving Zach Redmond a shot, Chevy decided to stay with old faithful Mark Stuart for $2 625 000/year while paying Grant Clitsome $2 066 667/year. While the Jets have gotten and continue to get great value out of some of their forwards, their defence features some highly problematic contracts that, when combined with an internal budget, may lead to forcing Josh Morrissey into the lineup before he is ready for the minutes that the Jets will need him to play due to poor planning on their part. The Jets currently have 9.39% of their cap tied up in defencemen that will ideally occupy spots 5-8, not 4-7
I don't mind Clitsome at $2 million, and Stuart might be a bit high, but nothing that is harming the Jets financial flexibility.

As for "cheaper" AHL guys, who are you thinking?

Lowry - $828k
Klingberg - $650k
Lipon - $640k

Those guys are making about the same as Tangradi and Peluso, and not that much less than Slater or Thorbs.

Suffice to say, the Jets really don't have a problem with bad contracts in their bottom-6. It's just another windmill that some Jets fans like to tilt at.

Whileee is offline  
Old
08-23-2014, 04:34 PM
  #324
Blue Shakehead
Registered User
 
Blue Shakehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,845
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
You think he Chevy in previous contracts, and now you think he couldn't sign Frolik because he didn't offer enough, because the money was tied up in Pavs contract.

Please list a fraction of the "tons" of options for a goalie that could have been acquired without giving up important assets, and would have been clearly better than Hutchinson.

Regarding the "overpaying" of the bottom six, the collective salary of:

Slater, Thorburn, Tangradi, Halischuk, Peluso, O'Dell and Galiardi... ($5.46 million). Average salary = $872,860. If we paid ALL of these 7 players the league minimum, we would save a total of about $2.2 million in salary.

Others in our "bottom six" would include Kane / Buff and Perreault.

Most of our "vast" number of lower end defensemen will end up playing in the AHL. All except Stuart or Clitsome are making well under $1 million a year (NHL salary). I suppose you could argue that Stuart is overpaid, but that doesn't mean Chevy is a "bad negotiator". I expect that Stuart could command that sort of salary on the open market. Have a quick look at this list of UFA signings... (http://www.capgeek.com/ufa-tracker/).
Chevy has become a literal laughingstock around the league for his dithering incompetence and you're asking for a list of goalies who could've been an upgrade in net despite something like 12 teams having upgraded their goaltending in the last 2 years? Here's a list of teams with comically bad goaltending that never did anything to improve it in the last 4 years:

Winnipeg.

It's a small list. [mod]


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 08-23-2014 at 04:36 PM. Reason: OT
Blue Shakehead is offline  
Old
08-23-2014, 09:38 PM
  #325
jetkarma*
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Wpg/Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy View Post


I don't think I do. Something exciting?
He was set on getting what he got in return for Oduya. Chevy was speaking with in his words, a long term respected GM that told him he wasn't going to get what he was asking for.

When Chevy did indeed get it , the GM called him back and and congratulated him on getting the price he had set and stuck to and told him he was wrong and Chevy was right.

jetkarma* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:56 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.