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Old
02-18-2004, 06:29 PM
  #1
Olly2
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Kevin Lowe

I think Kevin Lowe has made a few mistakes this year.

1) Why make the Comrie deal at that point of the season?

The Flyers offered the Oilers assets that were not going to help this year, in fact, those assets may not even help next year. This deal could have been done after the All-Star break, or even a little closer to the trading deadline. Doing the deal early only helped the Flyers. It didn't do anything for the Oilers in the near future. Every year, there is a team that suffers an injury which sends an organization on a mission to fill that hole. Lowe let the media and fans get to him. He was not patient enough.

2) Goaltending Situation?

The Oilers have done nothing to improve their goaltending for the future. The bottom line is Conklin is a decent backup, and Salo is washed up. Deslauriers is still years away from the big leagues. Buffalo has a surplus of goaltending. Either Biron or Noronen would be an upgrade, both at a very reasonable salary compared to Salo. How about Ryan Smyth for Biron and one of their young forwards. Buffalo seems to have surplus of young forwards that could succeed in a different environment. Connolly, Pyatt, or Afinogenov. I know that the Oilers are in tough with the Salary restrictions. These are the types of moves they need to make if they want to survive.

3) Why not move players not doing their job?

Laraque hasn't been fighting until recently, yet he is still an Oiler. Salo hasn't been good, Trade him, if nobody wants him, Waive him. He needs to show both veterans and young players that no matter who you are, if you are not performing, you are not going to be around very long.

4) Questionable Drafting?

Although the drafting has improved, you just don't pass up on players like Parise and Hudler. As an organization, I could only recall 2 players drafted by the Oilers that have become skilled players in the NHL. Satan and Hemsky. The Oilers need to draft skill. Although Pouliot may still turn out to be a good skill player, why take the risk. Right now, Parise is way ahead of him in development. Was that extra pick really worth it?

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02-18-2004, 06:32 PM
  #2
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There are quite a few threads already about the Comrie situation (which I disagree with you about), and the Parise/Pouliot thing. Just do a search a the top.

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02-18-2004, 06:34 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olly2
I think Kevin Lowe has made a few mistakes this year.

1) Why make the Comrie deal at that point of the season?

The Flyers offered the Oilers assets that were not going to help this year, in fact, those assets may not even help next year. This deal could have been done after the All-Star break, or even a little closer to the trading deadline. Doing the deal early only helped the Flyers. It didn't do anything for the Oilers in the near future. Every year, there is a team that suffers an injury which sends an organization on a mission to fill that hole. Lowe let the media and fans get to him. He was not patient enough.

2) Goaltending Situation?

The Oilers have done nothing to improve their goaltending for the future. The bottom line is Conklin is a decent backup, and Salo is washed up. Deslauriers is still years away from the big leagues. Buffalo has a surplus of goaltending. Either Biron or Noronen would be an upgrade, both at a very reasonable salary compared to Salo. How about Ryan Smyth for Biron and one of their young forwards. Buffalo seems to have surplus of young forwards that could succeed in a different environment. Connolly, Pyatt, or Afinogenov. I know that the Oilers are in tough with the Salary restrictions. These are the types of moves they need to make if they want to survive.

3) Why not move players not doing their job?

Laraque hasn't been fighting until recently, yet he is still an Oiler. Salo hasn't been good, Trade him, if nobody wants him, Waive him. He needs to show both veterans and young players that no matter who you are, if you are not performing, you are not going to be around very long.

4) Questionable Drafting?

Although the drafting has improved, you just don't pass up on players like Parise and Hudler. As an organization, I could only recall 2 players drafted by the Oilers that have become skilled players in the NHL. Satan and Hemsky. The Oilers need to draft skill. Although Pouliot may still turn out to be a good skill player, why take the risk. Right now, Parise is way ahead of him in development. Was that extra pick really worth it?
As much as I hear what you are saying, these topics have been beat to death on this board, I don't know if there is a point to this thread?

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Old
02-18-2004, 06:42 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olly2
I think Kevin Lowe has made a few mistakes this year.

1) Why make the Comrie deal at that point of the season?

The Flyers offered the Oilers assets that were not going to help this year, in fact, those assets may not even help next year. This deal could have been done after the All-Star break, or even a little closer to the trading deadline. Doing the deal early only helped the Flyers. It didn't do anything for the Oilers in the near future. Every year, there is a team that suffers an injury which sends an organization on a mission to fill that hole. Lowe let the media and fans get to him. He was not patient enough.
The later you go on in the season, the more the value drops for a guy who isn't playing. Was Philly's return for Comrie better than the Oilers return for Comrie? And factor in that Comrie had been playing for a month when Philly traded for him. If Lowe didn't get an impact player in the first month, the chances of him getting one later only got less likely.

Quote:
2) Goaltending Situation?

The Oilers have done nothing to improve their goaltending for the future. The bottom line is Conklin is a decent backup, and Salo is washed up. Deslauriers is still years away from the big leagues. Buffalo has a surplus of goaltending. Either Biron or Noronen would be an upgrade, both at a very reasonable salary compared to Salo. How about Ryan Smyth for Biron and one of their young forwards. Buffalo seems to have surplus of young forwards that could succeed in a different environment. Connolly, Pyatt, or Afinogenov. I know that the Oilers are in tough with the Salary restrictions. These are the types of moves they need to make if they want to survive.
The problem is you'd need to find something to do with Salo. Biron and Noronen are going to be there at the end of the season, so why not deal for one at that point? Doing it in mid-season means that you risk losing Conklin on waivers, or it means you have to attempt to buy out Salo. Buffalo isn't going to trade one of these guys now, so why not wait until later so you aren't wasting extra resources to get them?

Quote:
3) Why not move players not doing their job?

Laraque hasn't been fighting until recently, yet he is still an Oiler. Salo hasn't been good, Trade him, if nobody wants him, Waive him. He needs to show both veterans and young players that no matter who you are, if you are not performing, you are not going to be around very long.
The problem with just moving guys is that when you sell low, you can't win a deal. Laraque early on was reportedly on the block, but do you trade him only for a 5th rounder? Aren't Oiler fans lamenting about the loss of Satan because he was dealt for basically nothing? As for waiving Salo, unfortunately, you still have to pay him, and the Oilers don't have that kind of money around to pay a guy $4mil to play in the minors.

Quote:
4) Questionable Drafting?

Although the drafting has improved, you just don't pass up on players like Parise and Hudler. As an organization, I could only recall 2 players drafted by the Oilers that have become skilled players in the NHL. Satan and Hemsky. The Oilers need to draft skill. Although Pouliot may still turn out to be a good skill player, why take the risk. Right now, Parise is way ahead of him in development. Was that extra pick really worth it?
Let's not question passing over Hudler or Parise just yet. Neither of them have accomplished anything at the NHL level yet, so to say the Oilers blew it when not picking them isn't fair. Would it be a mistake if in 3 years Pouliot is our #2 centre and Parise is struggling to find a role in New Jersey? You haven't drafted wrong until the guy you picked isn't doing as well in the NHL as the guy you passed over.

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02-18-2004, 06:51 PM
  #5
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Mike Comrie Isn't Yashin

but once upon a time Marshall Johnson let him sit a whole year and then he picked up Chara plus a pick that ended up being Spezza.

Now, don't get me wrong this draft doesn't seem to be as deep as that one was and I'm not saying we could get anything close to that but saying the longer you hold a guy the more his value decreases is quite simple a load of aplogist crap.

I'm not ragging on Lowe because of what Clarke turned Comrie into, I'm ragging on Lowe becasue we need centres who can play this year and next and/or a goalie that can bridge the gap to JDD and Lowe ended up with a possible late 1st rounder plus another defenseman.

Now Lowe has to make two deals to address a need as he needs to turn that pick and some of Brew, Smith, Lynch or Woywitka into either a goalie or a centre.

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Old
02-18-2004, 06:55 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olly2
1) Why make the Comrie deal at that point of the season?
2) Goaltending Situation?
4) Questionable Drafting?
I will ask Kevin Lowe these questions for you very soon.

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Old
02-18-2004, 06:57 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olly2
I think Kevin Lowe has made a few mistakes this year.

1) Why make the Comrie deal at that point of the season?

The Flyers offered the Oilers assets that were not going to help this year, in fact, those assets may not even help next year. This deal could have been done after the All-Star break, or even a little closer to the trading deadline. Doing the deal early only helped the Flyers. It didn't do anything for the Oilers in the near future. Every year, there is a team that suffers an injury which sends an organization on a mission to fill that hole. Lowe let the media and fans get to him. He was not patient enough.

2) Goaltending Situation?

The Oilers have done nothing to improve their goaltending for the future. The bottom line is Conklin is a decent backup, and Salo is washed up. Deslauriers is still years away from the big leagues. Buffalo has a surplus of goaltending. Either Biron or Noronen would be an upgrade, both at a very reasonable salary compared to Salo. How about Ryan Smyth for Biron and one of their young forwards. Buffalo seems to have surplus of young forwards that could succeed in a different environment. Connolly, Pyatt, or Afinogenov. I know that the Oilers are in tough with the Salary restrictions. These are the types of moves they need to make if they want to survive.

3) Why not move players not doing their job?

Laraque hasn't been fighting until recently, yet he is still an Oiler. Salo hasn't been good, Trade him, if nobody wants him, Waive him. He needs to show both veterans and young players that no matter who you are, if you are not performing, you are not going to be around very long.

4) Questionable Drafting?

Although the drafting has improved, you just don't pass up on players like Parise and Hudler. As an organization, I could only recall 2 players drafted by the Oilers that have become skilled players in the NHL. Satan and Hemsky. The Oilers need to draft skill. Although Pouliot may still turn out to be a good skill player, why take the risk. Right now, Parise is way ahead of him in development. Was that extra pick really worth it?
I think i disagree with everything you say.

1) Comrie thing was due to the what happened with the Ducks. I think it was only a matter of time before Comrie or Brian Murray would pay for the $3.5M to KLowe. And at the time, KLowe didn't want Comrie to go Duck, prolly to teach him a lesson that you can't always get what you want or he truly didn't want him in the West. It was just a huge distraction for the team. And I am glad we did the trade.

2) Goaltending. Sure I would love to have Biron. But first off, KLowe has stated he won't be forced to make a trade due to financial reasons. So it' highly unlikely Smyth will go for a goaltender. I don't think the market value for goalies are that high anyways. Look at Sean Burke, Kripussof, and Chechemanek. All went for 2nd picks at best. We could easily get Biron for a 2nd in my opinion. Plus, another reason why Smyth won't be leaving is he's a veteran. And with Klowe signing vets to long term deals, I don't think that will happen anytime soon.

3) Laraque took himself out of the market when he said he wouldn't fight no more if he got traded. i think laraque's still valuable to this team. He adds tons if you can get him motivated. I think that's what happens. You don't put him on the hot-seat, he won't budge. Plus, just having him on the ice sends a message to the other team that you can't rough EDM. Even tho we have Smith, Moreau, Staois and a bunch of tough guys, i don't think you would call them enforcers to ensure we don't get roughed up. Laraque ensures that no teams take advantage of us.

4) Drafting. I don't think we have questionable drafting anymore with Lowe at the helms. He's done a pretty good job. And I trust his decision to take Pouliot over Parise. Stoll, Semenov, Hemsky, Markannen is not bad over 3 years.

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Old
02-18-2004, 07:03 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
I'm not ragging on Lowe because of what Clarke turned Comrie into, I'm ragging on Lowe becasue we need centres who can play this year and next and/or a goalie that can bridge the gap to JDD and Lowe ended up with a possible late 1st rounder plus another defenseman.
I've been a Lowe booster since he came aboard, still am, but it seems to me that he's been more focused on Olympics and outdoor games than the Edmonton Oilers.

This summer, he needs to address gaping holes at center, goal and a dman capable of a headman pass.

Otherwise, he's gone and it doesn't matter how many Cups he won.

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02-18-2004, 07:04 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
but once upon a time Marshall Johnson let him sit a whole year and then he picked up Chara plus a pick that ended up being Spezza.

Now, don't get me wrong this draft doesn't seem to be as deep as that one was and I'm not saying we could get anything close to that but saying the longer you hold a guy the more his value decreases is quite simple a load of aplogist crap.
Really now... look at this deal:

Superstar for top draft pick, and project defenseman

now this one:

good young offensive player for 1st round pick, 3rd round pick and project defenseman.

Are we really comparing these? Who has more value, the allstar after yet another solid year, or the young kid after a bad season?

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Old
02-18-2004, 07:31 PM
  #10
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2 comments:

20/20 hindsight is easy

you need someone to buy what your selling or any trade proposal is pointless

Armchair GMing is fine - but no one here has anything close to a real understanding on what is actually going on in the player market (see todays trade for Bondra as an example - 99.9% of posters in this forum would have laughed you out the door if you suggested that yesterday).

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Old
02-19-2004, 11:20 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
I'm not ragging on Lowe because of what Clarke turned Comrie into, I'm ragging on Lowe becasue we need centres who can play this year and next and/or a goalie that can bridge the gap to JDD and Lowe ended up with a possible late 1st rounder plus another defenseman.

Now Lowe has to make two deals to address a need as he needs to turn that pick and some of Brew, Smith, Lynch or Woywitka into either a goalie or a centre.
Instead of simply crying over the fact that Lowe never brought back a Center or Goalie in the Comrie trade, why don't you try and look at the big picture.

As far as a goalie goes, yes Lowe has to address that position and most people fully expect that to happen once Salo's contract is up. With that said, what would Lowe have gained by buying Salo's contract out at the beginning of the season? He would have simply spent 2.6 mil on Salo's contract, had to take on another contract for say 1.5 mil (min) and been right back where he was. Paying 4 mil for a goalie that still wouldn't take the team to the promised land because of the developmental stage the rest of the team is at.

Now despite your opinion of Salo's play over the last few years, he really only had one bad season. Does Lowe trade a player going into the last year of his contract because he had one bad year? The league is littered with players that slumped for a season only to come back and make up for it a year later. One of the best examples is probably Marchant and the contrast of his last two years in Edmonton.

So Lowe does the most logoical thing, he keeps Salo and hopes that he has a re-birth here in Edmonton in which case he can concentrate on other areas of the team or parlay him into a good return at the deadline. Or Salo continues to struggle but at the end of the year Lowe simply lets him walk. He is no further ahead nor would he be any further behind.

Good goaltending certainly could have made the difference in the team making the playoffs this year, but the player in question today never did have an impact on how the team is being built for tomorrow.

Now as far as converting Comrie into a goalie, which goalie would you have suggested Lowe pick up? Does he go get Burke from Pheonix and put another 4 mil on the books and only secure the position for 1 season? Does he go after Biron (I believe he is a guy your an advocate of) when Buffalo already has Briere? Even if he does find a goalie, does he spend 5.5 or 6 mil on goaltending this year? Is it a good move to try and sneak Conklin through waivers if he brings in another goalie? Does he waive Salo and pay a minor league goalie 4 mil a year?

This years goaltending is what it is. Nothing was going to change that unless Lowe was able to flip Salo for a younger guy which clearly wasn't a possibility.

Now as far as Lowe bringing a center back in for Comrie, I find the notion laughable. What kind of Center does Lowe need to bring in? A young, offensive, inexpensive and preferably big kid.

What GM in the league is going to trade for Mike Comrie when he has to essentially give up a kid that fits the same mold only with size? It's not going to happen.
The best Lowe could have done is get an older center with a larger contract in return and that doesn't do anything for the Oilers in the big picture.

Instead Lowe got a 1st round pick which is not only an attractive trading chip but if kept could return a player that can contribute to this team. And a highly touted defenceman that is of the age and has the upside to again, be an attractive trading chip or contribute to this team for a long time. More importantly he brings in a kid at a position that affords Lowe the luxury of either flipping him or trading another D. It is more likely that Lowe will get a better return when shopping for a center if he is offering a defenceman because any team that is willing to part with a center would be doing so because they have extra depth at that position but are thin elsewhere.

This is not that different than how he handled the Weight trade. He brought in a player that was then flipped for what has turned out to be a pretty good return. However I guess I wouldn't expect you to realize that because when you comment on the Weight trade you tend to only see Jan Horacek as the return.

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Old
02-19-2004, 02:39 PM
  #12
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Asiaoil is right.

The Bondra trade shows what the market is still geared to the buyers. Lowe needs to wait until the deadline when power finally shifts.

Brilliant move by Muckler, who frequently talks of his Edmonton history in interviews.

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02-19-2004, 04:48 PM
  #13
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I believe the title of my post

was Mike Comrie isn't Yashin and I understood but you also have Comrie's contract demands, at least toward's another team, weren't as daunting as Yashin's either.

And 1st/3rd means nothing compared to that pick Ott got for Yashin.

And yeah I know Hecht was flipped for two picks that became Stoll and JDD. How did that shake out though? was that a year the Oilers didn't otherwise have 2nd round picks?

even though if those guys pan out that's to the credit of Pendergast and Co more than anyone else.

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02-19-2004, 05:00 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olly2
I think Kevin Lowe has made a few mistakes this year.

1) Why make the Comrie deal at that point of the season?

The Flyers offered the Oilers assets that were not going to help this year, in fact, those assets may not even help next year. This deal could have been done after the All-Star break, or even a little closer to the trading deadline. Doing the deal early only helped the Flyers. It didn't do anything for the Oilers in the near future. Every year, there is a team that suffers an injury which sends an organization on a mission to fill that hole. Lowe let the media and fans get to him. He was not patient enough.

2) Goaltending Situation?

The Oilers have done nothing to improve their goaltending for the future. The bottom line is Conklin is a decent backup, and Salo is washed up. Deslauriers is still years away from the big leagues. Buffalo has a surplus of goaltending. Either Biron or Noronen would be an upgrade, both at a very reasonable salary compared to Salo. How about Ryan Smyth for Biron and one of their young forwards. Buffalo seems to have surplus of young forwards that could succeed in a different environment. Connolly, Pyatt, or Afinogenov. I know that the Oilers are in tough with the Salary restrictions. These are the types of moves they need to make if they want to survive.

3) Why not move players not doing their job?

Laraque hasn't been fighting until recently, yet he is still an Oiler. Salo hasn't been good, Trade him, if nobody wants him, Waive him. He needs to show both veterans and young players that no matter who you are, if you are not performing, you are not going to be around very long.

4) Questionable Drafting?

Although the drafting has improved, you just don't pass up on players like Parise and Hudler. As an organization, I could only recall 2 players drafted by the Oilers that have become skilled players in the NHL. Satan and Hemsky. The Oilers need to draft skill. Although Pouliot may still turn out to be a good skill player, why take the risk. Right now, Parise is way ahead of him in development. Was that extra pick really worth it?

I think you make some good points here. I agree with you about Parise and with respect to the Comrie deal I wish he would have traded him at the draft to get the Ducks pick and take Ryan Getzlaf. If the Oilers need size at centre, why not go for big size like Getlaf rather than Pouliot. It's the hindsight is 20/20 arguement but it seems obvious that Lowe and MacT didn't want Comrie back - why not stock up on good skilled centres like Parise and Getzlaf?

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02-19-2004, 05:06 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts

even though if those guys pan out that's to the credit of Pendergast and Co more than anyone else.
actaully you are correct here. When JDD was available ( he was expected to be a mid 1st rounder, 10-15 overall), the scouts begged Lowe to make a deal. In Lowe's defense, he has proven that he actually listens to his scouts). The Stoll pick-up was another huge stroke of luck as he might be a top 10 pick if that draft were done today.

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02-19-2004, 05:20 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
even though if those guys pan out that's to the credit of Pendergast and Co more than anyone else.
That's a fair statement but on the flip side some people still don't think the team has been drafting well (not directed at you inparticular), and as a result they generally critisize Lowe as being the problem.

Let's face it, wether talking about drafting or trades, scouting is a big part of it and yet Lowe is ultimately the guy in the line of fire. It isn't really fair to short him on a good decision if he is the only one taking heat for a poor one.

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02-19-2004, 05:35 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
That's a fair statement but on the flip side some people still don't think the team has been drafting well (not directed at you inparticular), and as a result they generally critisize Lowe as being the problem.

Let's face it, wether talking about drafting or trades, scouting is a big part of it and yet Lowe is ultimately the guy in the line of fire. It isn't really fair to short him on a good decision if he is the only one taking heat for a poor one.
It's also up to Lowe to fill his scouting staff with hockey-smart people he can rely on and trust.

So whenever there is a good pick or a good trade, the credit does go to the scouts in part, but let's not forget that Lowe hired these guys because he beleives in them.

In the mid 90's the scouting let the Oilers down, but Fraser isn't the only guy to blame. Sather is the one who put him in charge so it does float back to him.

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02-19-2004, 05:39 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
And 1st/3rd means nothing compared to that pick Ott got for Yashin.
No... and Comrie hadn't proven to be the same kind of offensively gifted player Yashin had, which is probably why there is a discrepancy between what will be a mid-20's pick and 2nd overall. You wanted to compare it to the Yashin trade, and it looks pretty comparable considering the players at the core of it.

Quote:
even though if those guys pan out that's to the credit of Pendergast and Co more than anyone else.
And didn't Lowe hire the guys (or in some cases retain their services)?

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02-19-2004, 05:45 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axis
It's the hindsight is 20/20 arguement but it seems obvious that Lowe and MacT didn't want Comrie back - why not stock up on good skilled centres like Parise and Getzlaf?
Umm... The mistake Lowe made was waiting until November or so before realizing that Comrie wasn't coming back. Lowe very clearly did want Comrie back.

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02-19-2004, 08:29 PM
  #20
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Yeah he also gave KracKT three years and Simpson the keys to the PP kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
No... and Comrie hadn't proven to be the same kind of offensively gifted player Yashin had, which is probably why there is a discrepancy between what will be a mid-20's pick and 2nd overall. You wanted to compare it to the Yashin trade, and it looks pretty comparable considering the players at the core of it.



And didn't Lowe hire the guys (or in some cases retain their services)?
so how do you want to trade that off? yes good on Lowe for hiring those guys but unless he's a micromanager there's no way that the lion's share of the credit for those selections don't fall in the lap of Pendergast and Co.

And Copper I'm not one of those guys who's said the team has drafted bad under Lowe. In fact the Oilers have been drafting better for awhile now. Comrie-Semi-Salmo-Rita in 99 even before Lowe took over.


Last edited by Matts: 02-19-2004 at 08:37 PM. Reason: content
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Old
02-19-2004, 08:38 PM
  #21
dawgbone
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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I don't need to trade it off with anything because I am not the one who has issues over that... you are, remember?

Were you happier in the glory days of 1998 when the best team the Oilers could afford reached their ceiling and couldn't get over it, at least not as Oilers?

And I never said the lion's share of the credit should go to anyone... you were just super quick to take away any credit to Lowe when he was obviously smart enough to surround himself with some really bright hockey people.

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