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How good is David Backes?

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Old
04-18-2007, 10:28 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
Skill wise you may be right; but you are ignoring his intangibles. Backes is more "Captain Material" than anybody else we have up front at this point(prospects/young players only) with Stempniak being the only real runner-up(Backes and Stempy were the C's of their College teams; none of our other top prospects have that note on their records). Even if his production only tops out at 2nd line level, taking on a leadership role would give him a place in our top 6.


For a long time now I have been seeing Backes/Shane Doan comparrisons. I think it's a fairly close/valid comparrison.
Whatever, Kimzey. Don't tell me what I'm "failing to take into account" because that's typically arrogant of you. It's getting old. You have no more insight into Blues players than anyone else, don't act like you do. Intangibles and all don't make Backes a legit top 6 forward on a team with depth. If he's in a top 6 role, your team lacks depth. Pretty simple. He's a support, not core, player.

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04-18-2007, 10:42 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
Whatever, Kimzey. Don't tell me what I'm "failing to take into account" because that's typically arrogant of you. It's getting old. You have no more insight into Blues players than anyone else, don't act like you do. Intangibles and all don't make Backes a legit top 6 forward on a team with depth. If he's in a top 6 role, your team lacks depth. Pretty simple. He's a support, not core, player.
nice to see you've written off any of the kid's upside after 49 NHL games. To say he'll always be a support player and not a legit top-6 forward smacks of just as much arrogance as you accuse Kimzey of possessing. You may think that Kimzey has "no more insight into the Blues players than anyone else", but if i were you i wouldn't get into a debate about hockey knowledge with him...


Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 04-18-2007 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Removed personal attacks
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04-18-2007, 10:58 AM
  #28
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mmmm hmmm thats right

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04-18-2007, 01:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
Whatever, Kimzey. Don't tell me what I'm "failing to take into account" because that's typically arrogant of you.

OK; show me where you DID take his intangibles into account.
Call me arrogant if you want, I don't care. I'm still going to pick apart your posts if you post things that are blatantly incorrect or only show half the truth.

The TRUTH is; you are labeling Backes SOLELY on what you perceive his production to be(I'm not going to dispute your perceptions at this time). I'm sorry if you don't like this; but production is NOT the be-all-end-all of what defines a top 6 forward.

Look at somebody like Dallas Drake. Are you telling me that Drake wasn't one of our "Top 6 core forwards" on the 2002-2003 team? I Know FOR A FACT that the coaching staff at the time would disagree with you(heck; the Turnip would have disagreed with you this PAST season).

Quote:
It's getting old. You have no more insight into Blues players than anyone else, don't act like you do.
Actually; I DO have more insight into Blues players than some on here(you included). I also admit to being totally outclassed by others here.

Either way; I'm not going to drudge this conversation into a flame war. If I were you, I'd stop with the personal attacks.

Quote:
Intangibles and all don't make Backes a legit top 6 forward on a team with depth. If he's in a top 6 role, your team lacks depth. Pretty simple. He's a support, not core, player.
1) As I said before, I know FOR A FACT that the previous coaching staff for the Blues would disagree with this statment. Unless you're saying you know better than Joel Q this statement is flat out wrong.

2) As I also said before; Tell that to Dallas Drake. Dallas Drake's role on the 2002-2003 Blues team COMPLETELY undermines your premise. Drake regularly lined up on the 3rd line with Rucinsky and Cajanek that year and was considered the #1 "core" forward on the team by Joel Q. What line a player lines up on and what his status is in regards to the "core Top 6" are COMPLETELY seperate issues and any Junior coach could tell you that.

3) Put your projection for Backes in numbers. I'm not going to argue semantics with you; I want to know EXACTLY what type of production you think Backes is capable of at the NHL level. Until I know this; this conversation is over.

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04-18-2007, 01:44 PM
  #30
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It is FAR too early to label Jon DiSalvatore a "bust". The kid hasn't even been given HALF a chance at the NHL level (3 games under the Turnip's guidance does NOT constitute a "chance"). I still contend that, given an actual chance, the kid could stick as a better than average 3/4 liner. Until he's actually GIVEN that chance and failed, I can't see ANY logical way to label the guy a bust (BTW, bringing up Sejna was JD's move, not Murrray's; I can tell you with absolute certainty that Sejna was 4th on Murray's list of callups behind King, Whitfield and Disalvatore based on the weekend Murray took to scout Peoria).


Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 04-18-2007 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Removed references to deleted posts; left analysis of DiSalvatore, although probably better suited to a different thread
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04-18-2007, 02:33 PM
  #31
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Anybody can see that Backes has the potential to put up 25-30 goals on a regular basis. For a guy whose "hands aren't good enough and neither is his skating", he sure was impressive for a college kid with half a season of professional seasoning. Do you really think that Backes isn't going to get any better, at all? Because a full season of play would have put him at about 17-22-39. That's a pretty strong rookie campaign.

You do realize that you need not go 50-50-100 to be considered a top-6 scorer, right? The league is filled with top-6 forwards who consistently "only" put up 50-65 points per season. If David can go 25-25-50 and provide physical play, strong forechecking, responsible backchecking with a splash of leadership and dose of heart, he would CERTAINLY be considered a top-6 forward.


Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 04-18-2007 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Removed references to previously-deleted posts
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04-18-2007, 02:42 PM
  #32
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Backes certainly had solid flashes last year and moments when he displayed a nice skill set including a good shot and nice hands around the net. I have no doubt that he'll be a consistent 20 - 25 goal scorer and good for about 45 - 60 points per year. I also have no doubt that he'll be a good character player for the Blues. I'm very fond of Backes as an outstanding depth player for the Blues but I simply do not see the high end skill associated with being a true top 6 forward at the NHL level. His hands are good but don't make up for his lack of first step quickness. Jason Spezza can get away with being an average skater. Backes can't. Additionally his skating isn't so great to make up for essentially good but not truly high end hands. Doan he isn't. Doan has another set of jets to burn past defensemen that Backes lacks. Backes lacks one great aspect to his game, whether it be skating, or reads in the offensive zone or great playmaking skills or a truly great shot. He has nice skills and a great attitude apparently and works hard for the team. A nice addition to any team, but not a top 6 forward in a Cup worthy team with solid NHL level top end scoring and sufficient depth.


Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 04-18-2007 at 03:12 PM. Reason: Unwarranted threats removed
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04-18-2007, 02:54 PM
  #33
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Backes game used stick is on EBAY right now. The auction ends within few hours. I just posted this for those fans who like him

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04-18-2007, 03:02 PM
  #34
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kimzey/2forroughing:

Both of you, knock off the schoolyard chest-thumping right freakin' now...

You both have valuable insights to post here. Don't deprive everyone of those insights by getting banned for being a pair of buffoons in a pissing contest...

That is all.

P_B


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04-18-2007, 03:10 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
Backes certainly had solid flashes last year and moments when he displayed a nice skill set including a good shot and nice hands around the net. I have no doubt that he'll be a consistent 20 - 25 goal scorer and good for about 45 - 60 points per year. I also have no doubt that he'll be a good character player for the Blues. I'm very fond of Backes as an outstanding depth player for the Blues but I simply do not see the high end skill associated with being a true top 6 forward at the NHL level. His hands are good but don't make up for his lack of first step quickness. Jason Spezza can get away with being an average skater. Backes can't. Additionally his skating isn't so great to make up for essentially good but not truly high end hands. Doan he isn't. Doan has another set of jets to burn past defensemen that Backes lacks. Backes lacks one great aspect to his game, whether it be skating, or reads in the offensive zone or great playmaking skills or a truly great shot. He has nice skills and a great attitude apparently and works hard for the team. A nice addition to any team, but not a top 6 forward in a Cup worthy team with solid NHL level top end scoring and sufficient depth.
2for, a few questions for you.

1. Did you consider Carolina last year to be a "Cup-worthy team?" If not, why not?

2. Do you consider Erik Cole to be a legitimate top 6 forward on that Cup-winning team? If not, why not?

3. What does Erik Cole have, other than NHL experience, that Backes does not?

Doan is a much better skater (currently) than Backes; Cole, however, is not significantly better than Backes in skating skills, and Cole is a 25-30 goal, 55-60 point player year in and year out.

I see a comparison of Backes to Cole as being much more realistic than a Backes-Doan analogy. Agree or disagree?

P_B


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04-18-2007, 03:21 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
I have no doubt that he'll be a consistent 20 - 25 goal scorer and good for about 45 - 60 points per year.
1) What, you couldn't have just said this for me 4 posts ago and saved us both a lot of time?


2) There were 119 forwards in the NHL last year that scored 20 or more goals.

Divide that number among the 30 teams: each team had an average of Four (3.98 to be exact; but I'm trying to be nice) 20 goal scorers.

I repeat: based on this years stats each team had an average of FOUR(4) players that scored 20 goals.

Of this years PO teams; only Buffalo had more than 6 players that scored 20 goals(they had 7).

The Average number of 20 goal scorers per PO team was 4.75(note; I'm being nice and counting Dan Boyle as a 20 goal scorer).

In the Western Conference:
Nashville lead the way with 6 forwards with 20 goals(small note; only 3 teams in the entire NHL had 6 players with 20 goals; Buffalo, Nashville and (believe it or not) the Islanders).

The Average number of 20 goal scorers per Western Conference PO team was 4.5.

Being a 20 goal forward makes Backes a top 6 forward BY DEFAULT. When you further add his intangibles it is ludicrous to suggest that Backes ISN'T a top 6 forward. He may be more on the 5/6 end of things; but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

3) Might I suggest that you go look at Doan's career stats.

Here's a hint: The guy has only hit the 30 mark once and has routinely been closer to the 25 goal mark.

I'd suggest you re-think your assessment of Doan. He's not half the player he's hyped up to be.

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04-18-2007, 03:33 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
2for, a few questions for you.

1. Did you consider Carolina last year to be a "Cup-worthy team?" If not, why not?

2. Do you consider Erik Cole to be a legitimate top 6 forward on that Cup-winning team? If not, why not?

3. What does Erik Cole have, other than NHL experience, that Backes does not?

Doan is a much better skater (currently) than Backes; Cole, however, is not significantly better than Backes in skating skills, and Cole is a 25-30 goal, 55-60 point player year in and year out.

I see a comparison of Backes to Cole as being much more realistic than a Backes-Doan analogy. Agree or disagree?

P_B

I'll interject by saying that Cole is a much stronger skater than either Backes or Doan (one of the most overrated players in the league). Cole is about as good as it gets when it comes to driving wide past a defenseman to the net.

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04-18-2007, 03:36 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
Backes certainly had solid flashes last year and moments when he displayed a nice skill set including a good shot and nice hands around the net. I have no doubt that he'll be a consistent 20 - 25 goal scorer and good for about 45 - 60 points per year. I also have no doubt that he'll be a good character player for the Blues. I'm very fond of Backes as an outstanding depth player for the Blues but I simply do not see the high end skill associated with being a true top 6 forward at the NHL level. His hands are good but don't make up for his lack of first step quickness. Jason Spezza can get away with being an average skater. Backes can't. Additionally his skating isn't so great to make up for essentially good but not truly high end hands. Doan he isn't. Doan has another set of jets to burn past defensemen that Backes lacks. Backes lacks one great aspect to his game, whether it be skating, or reads in the offensive zone or great playmaking skills or a truly great shot. He has nice skills and a great attitude apparently and works hard for the team. A nice addition to any team, but not a top 6 forward in a Cup worthy team with solid NHL level top end scoring and sufficient depth.

How you describe what Backes can become is exactly what kind of player Shane Doan is now: a gritty forward who can score 25-30 goals and 55-65 points.


Last edited by Rabid Ranger: 04-18-2007 at 04:21 PM.
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04-18-2007, 03:44 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
2for, a few questions for you.

1. Did you consider Carolina last year to be a "Cup-worthy team?" If not, why not?

2. Do you consider Erik Cole to be a legitimate top 6 forward on that Cup-winning team? If not, why not?

3. What does Erik Cole have, other than NHL experience, that Backes does not?

Doan is a much better skater (currently) than Backes; Cole, however, is not significantly better than Backes in skating skills, and Cole is a 25-30 goal, 55-60 point player year in and year out.

I see a comparison of Backes to Cole as being much more realistic than a Backes-Doan analogy. Agree or disagree?

P_B

Eric Cole is a far better player than David Backes. Yes, I consider Cole a legit top 6 forward. He's a much better skater and he has a better shot. I also believe his offensive instincts are all around higher than Backes. He is a smart player with a skill set that is all around better than Backes.
I don't see the Backes/Cole comparison at all, really. Cole has Backes beat by a wide margin in a number of critical areas. Cole is a much better skater than Backes, by the way.

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04-18-2007, 03:56 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
Backes certainly had solid flashes last year and moments when he displayed a nice skill set including a good shot and nice hands around the net. I have no doubt that he'll be a consistent 20 - 25 goal scorer and good for about 45 - 60 points per year. I also have no doubt that he'll be a good character player for the Blues. I'm very fond of Backes as an outstanding depth player for the Blues but I simply do not see the high end skill associated with being a true top 6 forward at the NHL level. His hands are good but don't make up for his lack of first step quickness. Jason Spezza can get away with being an average skater. Backes can't. Additionally his skating isn't so great to make up for essentially good but not truly high end hands. Doan he isn't. Doan has another set of jets to burn past defensemen that Backes lacks. Backes lacks one great aspect to his game, whether it be skating, or reads in the offensive zone or great playmaking skills or a truly great shot. He has nice skills and a great attitude apparently and works hard for the team. A nice addition to any team, but not a top 6 forward in a Cup worthy team with solid NHL level top end scoring and sufficient depth.
I'd just like to say I don't recall making any threats of any kind. I am not a violent person in the least bit and I mean no harm to any living creature although I hope George W. Bush stubs his toe and it hurts really freakin' bad. Other than that I didn't mean any inferred or explicit threats to come across in my post. Complete apologies if it was taken that way.
I simply asked that if the poster was going to continue to make a personal issue out of the topic that we move that aspect of it to a venue "off the boards." I was not referring to a physical confrontation in the real world at all.

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04-18-2007, 04:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
How you describe what Backes' can become is exactly what kind of player Shane Doan is now: a gritty forward who can score 25-30 goals and 55-65 points.
To begin with RR I agree that Doan is vastly overrated. He's closer to a true top 6 forward than Backes is just because his skills are higher overall. His shot is better and he's a much better skater and he's more physical and is already a proven leader on his club at a young age. I think he lacks the true high end skills that I'd like to see on a top 3 forward, but in his case intangibles take him to another level. This was not always the case with Doan as he developed as a player, something Backes will do as well. I just don't see Backes as having the tool set that Doan has. Doan's much faster and his hands are slightly better, pretty much the same things that separate all the elite players from the not so elite ones. So, no, I don't see Doan as a real top 6 forward but he's closer to it than Backes.

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04-18-2007, 05:28 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing
Eric Cole is a far better player than David Backes.
As of right now, certainly he is. But, I will make the case that, as a rookie, Cole was only a marginally better performer -- if better at all -- than Backes demonstrated in this, his rookie season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing
Yes, I consider Cole a legit top 6 forward. He's a much better skater and he has a better shot.

I also believe his offensive instincts are all around higher than Backes. He is a smart player with a skill set that is all around better than Backes.
Really? And upon what do you base that comparison?

Once again, there's no doubt that today, right now, Erik Cole is a much better NHL player than David Backes.

But the Erik Cole of 2006-07, with the "all around higher" offensive instincts and "all around better" skill set, is not the same Erik Cole that broke into the NHL in 2001-02

You yourself have stated that Backes' upside is a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point player.

Cole's career numbers, over five seasons in the NHL:

345 GP, 107-122-229, +8, 330 PIM.

That's 21.4 G, 24.4 A, 45.8 points per year, playing in an average of 69 games per year. He has missed sigificant time as an NHLer to injury, something that Backes has never been particularly susceptible to in the USHL, college, or minor pro.

Now, Cole -- a player that I like a great deal, BTW -- did score 29 goals and 61 points in 71 games this year, and was 30-29-59 in 60 games last year. So the case can be made that he's a consistent 30-goal scorer... but he has become this consistent 30-goal man only after he had the benefit of three NHL seasons under his belt, in which his combined numbers were 214 GP, 48-61-109.

That's 71 GP, 16-20-36 on average for each of his first three seasons.

Backes, in his first 49 NHL games, was 10-13-23. Not too far off the pace set by Cole, with his "all around higher" offensive instincts, over his first three seasons.

Cole, in his first NHL season (2001-02), was 16-24-40 in 81 games, after a full season in the minors (Cincinnati / IHL) the year before, where he was 23-20-43 in 69 games.

Cole's first NHL season breakdown: 0.1975 goals/game, 0.2963 assists/game, 0.4938 points/game.

Backes, in his first NHL season -- without the benefit of a full season at the top minor pro level to develop his game -- was 10-13-23 in 49 games. That's 0.2041 goals/game, 0.2653 assists/game, and 0.4694 points/game. Over 81 games, that comes out to 17 goals, 21 assists, and 38 points.

Once again, not too far off the early-career pace set by a player whose offensive instincts and skill set are supposed to be considerably better than those of David Backes. In fact, Backes, with a supposedly inferior shot to Cole, actually scored goals at a slightly higher pace than Cole did as a rookie, and Backes' projected full-season totals (based on actual performance) are slightly better than the average of Cole's first three NHL seasons.

And, for what it's worth, "a smart player" is exactly how Backes has been described to me by every coach or personnel man that I've had the privilege of speaking with about him. In particular, Dave Baseggio, Backes' coach in Peoria, had nothing but praise for Backes' intelligence and hockey sense.

No offense, but I'm inclined to give Dave Baseggio's assessment of Backes' game just a little more weight than I'd give to your assessment of Backes' game, or to that of any other poster on this board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing
I don't see the Backes/Cole comparison at all, really. Cole has Backes beat by a wide margin in a number of critical areas. Cole is a much better skater than Backes, by the way.
I'm sure you don't "see the Backes/Cole comparison at all," judging by your previous disparagement of Backes (which was edited out along with the personal insults and personal challenges to other posters in previous posts). I can't place much stock in your objectivity after seeing some of the things I have seen you post about Backes...

But I have just shown you that, at comparable points of their careers, Backes has accomplished every bit as much as Cole did. Backes has his whole future ahead of him, and seeing that he has a similar physical frame to Cole, and has come from a similar background (junior A to college to minor pro to the NHL), there's absolutely no reason to believe that David Backes cannot develop into an NHL player very similar in style and production to Erik Cole.

Cole may well be a better skater than Backes -- although I'd like to see a more objective and authoritative source indicate as much -- but Backes skates well enough to get the job done, and once again, has actually scored goals (or, to put it another way, "done his job") at a slightly higher pace than Cole did at the same point of his career.

Actually, Backes is scoring goals at a slightly higher pace than Cole at an earlier point in his pro career, since again, Backes did not have the benefit of a full season in the minors to further hone his game prior to making the jump to the NHL.

The Cole/Backes comparison is absolutely valid, IMO, and I think I've amply demonstrated here exactly why I think it's valid.

Your witness, counselor.

P_B



Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 04-18-2007 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Correcting capitalization and typographical errors...
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04-18-2007, 05:53 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
So, no, I don't see Doan as a real top 6 forward


If you don't think Doan is a "true top 6 forward" your standards for evaluating players are TERRIBLY flawed. The guy may be over-rated; but NOBODY doubts whether or not he's a legit top 6 forward(except for you that is).

I have to SERIOUSLY question your standards right now. If a consistent 25 goal scoring Power Forward CAPTAIN isn't a "real top 6 forward" in your books WHAT IS? Seriously man; what standards are you judging players by if a guy like that doesn't rank as a top 6 forward? I truely and honestly want to know.

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04-18-2007, 06:11 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post


If you don't think Doan is a "true top 6 forward" your standards for evaluating players are TERRIBLY flawed. The guy may be over-rated; but NOBODY doubts whether or not he's a legit top 6 forward(except for you that is).

I have to SERIOUSLY question your standards right now. If a consistent 25 goal scoring Power Forward CAPTAIN isn't a "real top 6 forward" in your books WHAT IS? Seriously man; what standards are you judging players by if a guy like that doesn't rank as a top 6 forward? I truely and honestly want to know.
I should have made myself clear: I don't see him as possessing the pure finesse talents of a top NHL forward. That is much different from what came out, which was that he's not a top 6 forward in the NHL, which is an incorrect statement. Doan would be a top 2 line player on pretty much every team in the NHL. Having said that, I don't put him in the elite skill category of the top NHLers like Crosby, Lecavalier, St.Louis and about 15 others.
Doan's a great and valuable player. He's not top end finesse skills for the NHL though, which is what I specifically meant, although articulated poorly.
By the way for reference a list of absolute top 6 players regardless of what team you put them on:

Crosby
Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Hossa
Heatley
Jagr
Gaborik (emerging)
Demitra
St.Louis
Lecavalier
Malkin (already)
Havlat (emerging)
Sakic
Modano
Iginla
Sedins (emerging)
Naslund
Kariya
Semin (emerging)
Thornton
Cheechoo
Marleau (emerging, world class skills)
Cole
Forsberg
Sundin


etc, etc.

By the way a guys like Dustin Penner or even perhaps a Trent Hunter are better comparisons for Backes than Cole and Doan. You guys overestimate Backes skill level, IMO. He's a 2nd tier support player, not a core top 6 forward like Doan and Cole.
It's how I see it, sorry. I'm not sure why you guys think I'm disparaging him. I'm not. I like him as a player. What's the deal with you folks? If I don't wet myself over a player then I have a bias against him? BS.

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04-18-2007, 06:22 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing
By the way a guys like Dustin Penner or even perhaps a Trent Hunter are better comparisons for Backes than Cole and Doan. You guys overestimate Backes skill level, IMO. He's a 2nd tier support player, not a core top 6 forward like Doan and Cole.

It's how I see it, sorry. I'm not sure why you guys think I'm disparaging him. I'm not. I like him as a player. What's the deal with you folks? If I don't wet myself over a player then I have a bias against him? BS.
1. Hmmm... funny you should mention those two players, since Dustin Penner is younger, bigger, and has scored more goals than either of the two stiffs listed ahead of him on the depth chart at LW for one of the best clubs in the NHL, and TSN.ca, a pretty authoritative source, says Trent Hunter is a top six forward on a playoff team...

How do you explain this?

2. No one said you had to "wet yourself" over Backes, or any player. You're overreacting to legitimate, rational dispute over your point of view.

3. The facts, spelled out in great detail, indicate that Backes is on a development path similar to that followed by Erik Cole, and is equal to Cole, or indeed ahead of Cole in some aspects, on that path at this stage of his career.

If you consider Cole a legitimate top-6 forward on a Cup contender, then if Backes does indeed reach the upside that you admit he has, then Backes is every bit as much a legitimate top-6 forward on a Cup-contending team, because Backes' upside of 20-25 goals and 50-60 points per year is actually better on-average production than what Cole has accomplished in his NHL career to date.

It makes little sense to say, on the one hand, that a guy who has averaged 21 goals and 46 points per year in five NHL seasons is a legitimate top-6 player... and then to turn right around and say on the other hand that a guy who projects to be at least that productive at the NHL level -- based on his performance to date -- lacks the skill set and offensive instincts to ever be a legitimate top-6 forward on a Cup contender.

P_B



Last edited by Prussian_Blue: 04-18-2007 at 06:39 PM.
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Old
04-18-2007, 06:37 PM
  #46
kimzey59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
I should have made myself clear: I don't see him as possessing the pure finesse talents of a top NHL forward. That is much different from what came out, which was that he's not a top 6 forward in the NHL, which is an incorrect statement. Doan would be a top 2 line player on pretty much every team in the NHL. Having said that, I don't put him in the elite skill category of the top NHLers like Crosby, Lecavalier, St.Louis and about 15 others.
Doan's a great and valuable player. He's not top end finesse skills for the NHL though, which is what I specifically meant, although articulated poorly.
1) I can understand and agree with this.

2) How is this different from Backes? If Backes developes into the player that you described(25 goal-50 point + leadership and grit) he would be a 2nd liner on pretty much any team he went to. Again; that may be on the low end of the "Top 6" spectrum; but it is still in that spectrum of players.

Please make sure you are noting the word FORWARD in that top 6 statement. We're not talking about our "core top 6" which could also include a D man or two. We are simply talking about our 6 featured players up front. Right now; I have a VERy hard time seeing how anybody can NOT put Backes into that group. His atribute set is just so different from what our other players bring to the table that you have to include him in that "top 6" label just based on the different look he gives a line.


Quote:
By the way a guys like Dustin Penner or even perhaps a Trent Hunter are better comparisons for Backes than Cole and Doan. You guys overestimate Backes skill level, IMO. He's a 2nd tier support player, not a core top 6 forward like Doan and Cole.
It's how I see it, sorry. I'm not sure why you guys think I'm disparaging him. I'm not. I like him as a player. What's the deal with you folks? If I don't wet myself over a player then I have a bias against him? BS.
1) Trent Hunter was the Isle's 6th leading goal scorer(with an even 20) this past year and has been an established peice on their 2nd line for 3 years now. He is ABSOLUTELY one of their top 6 forwards.

2) Dustin Penner, along with Perry and Getzlaf, helped form one of the better 2nd lines in the NHL this past year(there are VERY few teams that can boast a better 2nd line than Anaheims Kid line). More importantly, he was the Ducks 2nd leading goal scorer this past season. I'd say he is a VERY legit top 6 forward for Anaheim.

3) You are over-rating Doan and Cole a great deal here. They are just older versions of what Hunter, Penner and even Backes project to be; teir 2 PF's that bring some intangibles to the table. These are not Elite caliber players. ALL that we "Backes kool-aid drinkers" are saying is that players of this ilk (I can think of probably 20 more players that either would have fit into or currently fit into this category) are top 6 forwards. It usually takes them some time to develope the character traits that earn them this label; but once they do gain those traits there is no denying their top 6 status(case in point, Cole or Doan; it took both of them 3 years before they established themselves as "top 6" forwards). Every body is "jumping you" because we see in Backes ALL the tools needed to join this group and don't understand how you can't. He's not quite there yet; but he'll get there eventually.

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Old
04-18-2007, 08:24 PM
  #47
WalterSobchak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
Whatever, Kimzey. Don't tell me what I'm "failing to take into account" because that's typically arrogant of you. It's getting old. You have no more insight into Blues players than anyone else, don't act like you do. Intangibles and all don't make Backes a legit top 6 forward on a team with depth. If he's in a top 6 role, your team lacks depth. Pretty simple. He's a support, not core, player.
It has nothing to do with insight into the Blues players. NOBODY can see the future its all guesswork and predictions. You tend to come off as an arrogant dipstick lately, is it so wrong for other people to have differing opinions from your own?

a simple "I disagree with your assessment will do, the childish attacks make you look foolish.

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Old
04-18-2007, 10:23 PM
  #48
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Backes had a great Bantams coach at Spring Lake Park

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04-19-2007, 01:49 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Bertjk View Post
Backes had a great Bantams coach at Spring Lake Park
are you referring to Coach Benson? That guy was cool.

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Old
04-19-2007, 02:01 PM
  #50
2ForRoughing*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
It has nothing to do with insight into the Blues players. NOBODY can see the future its all guesswork and predictions. You tend to come off as an arrogant dipstick lately, is it so wrong for other people to have differing opinions from your own?

a simple "I disagree with your assessment will do, the childish attacks make you look foolish.
You're the one who just posted a personal attack. Again, if you continue to do so we're going to have a problem. Your post should be edited by the mods to delete your personal attack on me.
Discuss hockey or don't bother responding to my posts, it's pretty simple.

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