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04-20-2007, 08:23 AM
  #1
param
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Will Trotz be fired?

will he be fired if the preds dont' make to to at least the 3rd round?

just trying to get the perspective from you guys, seeing what everyone thinks of him?

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04-20-2007, 08:55 AM
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will he be fired if the preds dont' make to to at least the 3rd round?

just trying to get the perspective from you guys, seeing what everyone thinks of him?
If he could get them to the third round at this point, I think he'd be anointed mayor of nashville for life.

I think if they lose tonight, 98% of the fanbase will want him fired, however I will actually be surprised to see Poile pull the trigger on a firing, even if they lose tonight.

I think the x-factor is Leipold. He's generally patient, but extremely passionate and he obviously has a huge financial stake. If Leipold is staunchly a Trotz guy, I think Trotz is back no matter what, because I think Poile is staunchly a Trotz guy and won't campaign Leipold for his firing.

If Leipold blows a gasket after a game 5 loss, all bets are off. I'd say it's 60-40 that Trotz will be back with a loss tonight. If they pull off the miracle and win this series, there is no way he'll be fired no matter what happens in the second round. (well maybe if it's a 4 game sweep getting outscored 25-0 in the 4 games, or something)

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04-20-2007, 09:11 AM
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I'd have to disagree. If Preds lose tonight I would say that it is atleast 80% chance Trotz is gone. I like him, but I think he needs to get more fire in his belly. Show some emotion towards the refs on some of these bad calls. The team often takes on the HC's personality and they need to get more fire.

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04-20-2007, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by volntitan View Post
I'd have to disagree. If Preds lose tonight I would say that it is atleast 80% chance Trotz is gone. I like him, but I think he needs to get more fire in his belly. Show some emotion towards the refs on some of these bad calls. The team often takes on the HC's personality and they need to get more fire.
But the fanbase isn't firing Trotz, Poile and Leipold are and, imo, they will be far more (maybe too much) even-keeled about this than the fans. I can rattle off reasons why I think they should fire Trotz, but I'm not on the bench and I'm not in the locker room. It doesn't mean anything that I think that perhaps the players need to hear a different voice. David Poile has to think that and all we can base this on is David Poile's history which is to be patient (maddeningly, at time) and methodical in his big picture planning. I don't think Poile is the type of guy to make an impulse firing. I don't know, but imo, I think he values our successful regular seasons more than we do and will cut some slack from the injury standpoint.

Furthermore, if he fires Trotz he potentially sets up his own firing a year from now if they don't succeed with the new coach. This has all the makings of a "fire an assistant coach (Horachek) to send the message and put Trotz on a short leash next season and fire him after a slow start or fire him if they lose in the first round again" scenario.

Here is another key to this that we can't possibly know...what do the players think of Trotz? Beyond that...what do Timonen, Hartnell, Kariya, and Forsberg think of Trotz? Obviously, we know Hartnell and Trotz are love-hate. Trotz's firing could affect free agent signings either positively or negatively. We also don't know which of the 4 UFAs Poile values more than others. If he values Hartnell and Forsberg the most, but they hate Trotz, maybe he signs them and fires Trotz? Or the opposite. It goes far deeper than what we fans get upset about on the surface.

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04-20-2007, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by vopatsrash View Post
But the fanbase isn't firing Trotz, Poile and Leipold are and, imo, they will be far more (maybe too much) even-keeled about this than the fans. I can rattle off reasons why I think they should fire Trotz, but I'm not on the bench and I'm not in the locker room. It doesn't mean anything that I think that perhaps the players need to hear a different voice. David Poile has to think that and all we can base this on is David Poile's history which is to be patient (maddeningly, at time) and methodical in his big picture planning. I don't think Poile is the type of guy to make an impulse firing. I don't know, but imo, I think he values our successful regular seasons more than we do and will cut some slack from the injury standpoint.

Furthermore, if he fires Trotz he potentially sets up his own firing a year from now if they don't succeed with the new coach. This has all the makings of a "fire an assistant coach (Horachek) to send the message and put Trotz on a short leash next season and fire him after a slow start or fire him if they lose in the first round again" scenario.

Here is another key to this that we can't possibly know...what do the players think of Trotz? Beyond that...what do Timonen, Hartnell, Kariya, and Forsberg think of Trotz? Obviously, we know Hartnell and Trotz are love-hate. Trotz's firing could affect free agent signings either positively or negatively. We also don't know which of the 4 UFAs Poile values more than others. If he values Hartnell and Forsberg the most, but they hate Trotz, maybe he signs them and fires Trotz? Or the opposite. It goes far deeper than what we fans get upset about on the surface.
Good post Vopatsrash, agreed fully.

Another X-factor is Crispy.
Despite what many want to believe in the hockey world, Cripsy is much more hockey knowledgable than his "on-air" persona would suggest, based on my 2 trips with the team.
This organization values his opinion highly and he has made mildly veiled comments lately on the radio that he feels Trotz is not running this team right, especially in the physical play department. He has also said that he would "like to come back as head coach, given the right cicumstance"...that being taking a team on the cusp to the Cup, not a rebuilding situation.
That being said, I don't know that Crispy would be the prime or primary candidate to replace Trotz, but his opinion is very highly valued behind the scenes from management.

One of the factors that Leipold will have to consider if we go one and done again....is what will season ticket buyers/corporate sponsors need as far as a change, to convince them that it won't be more of the same old, same old next year, and create an enthusiasm that we can get over the hump next year.......that, in itself, may throw the pendulum over to getting rid of Trotz.

All much more complex than it appears on the surface.

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04-20-2007, 10:26 AM
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If we lose tonight, I don't think firing Trotz would be a "impulse" firing. After last year's performance and so far this year's, I think they have been more than patient. Like I said, I like him and it wouldn't kill me if he stayed, but also wouldn't bother me if they let him go.

One point you brought up I really agree with...what does Forseberg think of Trotz. If keeping Trotz means that some way Forseberg decides to stay on with the team, then I say do it. Anything we can do to convince Forseberg to stay on, we HAVE to do. I know it is a long shot, but having some one like him go an entire offseason and season with this young team would be immearsuable.

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04-20-2007, 10:29 AM
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Its not a case of firing Trotz ... Its a matter of the team not picking up the option on his contract for next season

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04-20-2007, 11:10 AM
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Unless a miracle happens, I say he is out. Anyone that can't take this kind of talent past the 1st round, is not the man for the job. He has had three years to get us some place (and so far the best we have done was 2 seasons ago, against the #1 seed when we were the 8th seed!) See ya Trotzy, thanks for the 9 years.

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04-20-2007, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
Good post Vopatsrash, agreed fully.

Another X-factor is Crispy.
Despite what many want to believe in the hockey world, Cripsy is much more hockey knowledgable than his "on-air" persona would suggest, based on my 2 trips with the team.
This organization values his opinion highly and he has made mildly veiled comments lately on the radio that he feels Trotz is not running this team right, especially in the physical play department. He has also said that he would "like to come back as head coach, given the right cicumstance"...that being taking a team on the cusp to the Cup, not a rebuilding situation.
That being said, I don't know that Crispy would be the prime or primary candidate to replace Trotz, but his opinion is very highly valued behind the scenes from management.

One of the factors that Leipold will have to consider if we go one and done again....is what will season ticket buyers/corporate sponsors need as far as a change, to convince them that it won't be more of the same old, same old next year, and create an enthusiasm that we can get over the hump next year.......that, in itself, may throw the pendulum over to getting rid of Trotz.

All much more complex than it appears on the surface.
I'm not even going to bother posting my view over on NP.com....there are some real freaks over there right now...impossible to have an intelligent conversation. It's either "fire Trotz and hit some people" or nothing. Anyway Handtrick, I saw what you posted here and over there about Crispy. You and I have both have had some great conversations with him and I agree with you that he really is not the "court jester" that he comes across on the air sometimes......but......why is it that in the past ten years, no one has recruited him back to coaching? That worries me that there is something going on we don't know about. I'm not sure he is our answer either......

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04-20-2007, 11:21 AM
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I'm not even going to bother posting my view over on NP.com....there are some real freaks over there right now...impossible to have an intelligent conversation. It's either "fire Trotz and hit some people" or nothing. Anyway Handtrick, I saw what you posted here and over there about Crispy. You and I have both have had some great conversations with him and I agree with you that he really is not the "court jester" that he comes across on the air sometimes......but......why is it that in the past ten years, no one has recruited him back to coaching? That worries me that there is something going on we don't know about. I'm not sure he is our answer either......
I don't pretend to know anything about this, but some of the older Calgary fans have a pretty negative view of him, even with the cup he brought them. As one poster put it a while back, he was "run out on a rail" from Calgary. I'd be interested to hear more about that.

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04-20-2007, 11:48 AM
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I don't pretend to know anything about this, but some of the older Calgary fans have a pretty negative view of him, even with the cup he brought them. As one poster put it a while back, he was "run out on a rail" from Calgary. I'd be interested to hear more about that.
I had heard some "under the surface" rumblings like that too but never anything concrete.....but there has to be a reason no one has come after him to coach in the last 10 years.

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04-20-2007, 12:41 PM
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Crispy wasnt exactly that successful in Tampa Bay either
maybe not "run out on a rail" but still

While he obviously should have some pull and his opinion listened to
I dont think he should be a serious candidate for HC

I'm also concerned about the lack of really good coaches out there
where are you going to find one? I'm not a fan of rehashing other peoples trash

i'd be in favour of finding an exceptional coach in the AHL before picking up a Crisp or a whatever

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04-20-2007, 01:02 PM
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Crispy wasnt exactly that successful in Tampa Bay either
maybe not "run out on a rail" but still
The way he spoke yesterday was inspiring. He sounded like he cared more than Trotz. Maybe he didn't do so well in Tampa Bay, but he didn't have guys like Karyia, Forsberg, Sullivan, Arnott, Radulov, Legwand, Weber, Dumont and countless others. I mean TB's captain was Bill Houlder! Come on. I want Crispy for two years. He has been to the big dance and won. He is respected (here at least) beyond almost any one else in hockey. He seems to know how to get things done and he seems to have the will and strength to scare the He11 out of anyone that steps out of line. He said yesterday on the radio, that he would not have taken Wilson's BS. And that he would have had the players step their "dirtiness" up. He literally suggested running the goalie. Ok, that seems a bit extreme, but it is opposite of how Trotz is treating everything, and I love it. Do what it takes to win, they just remember that you won, not how you won.

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04-20-2007, 01:19 PM
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I would love to see Crispy as coach. I think he could light some fires under the players' fannies...

Do you think it hurts his credibility with the current roster players (that he "jokes" around with most of 'em and they might not take him seriously) ?

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04-20-2007, 01:22 PM
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The thing about Crispy is - we would see a team almost completely different in style than the one we have now. Our net presence, protection of the goalie, and defensive zone coverage would all drastically change from Trotz's passive, do not take a penalty route.

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04-20-2007, 01:28 PM
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The thing about Crispy is - we would see a team almost completely different in style than the one we have now. Our net presence, protection of the goalie, and defensive zone coverage would all drastically change from Trotz's passive, do not take a penalty route.
Yes! That would be the best. We NEED a different style. Maybe then we could win a series!

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04-20-2007, 01:50 PM
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The problem that most don't appear to grasp is that any major change in coaching styles would require a complete retooling of this team.....and the way our roster is put together, and lack of great prospects in the pipeline, maybe short of Franson....we are looking at a 3-5 year rebuilding program at least.

Our market just can't take that.

Also, one of the main reasons that UFA's of any quality have wanted to come to the hockey Siberia known as Nashville has been our stability in management and coaching staff....every one of them have sited that. You have to believe that we would go through a drought of top line free agents wanting to sign here until we proved that we were again a contender with a completely new regime.

It just seems like people don't think through all the ramifications when they start screaming for wholesale changes.

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04-20-2007, 01:51 PM
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and defensive zone coverage would all drastically change from Trotz's passive, do not take a penalty route.
If that's our current defensive scheme, then we're doing an incredibly poor job following the game plan this series.

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04-20-2007, 02:02 PM
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The problem that most don't appear to grasp is that any major change in coaching styles would require a complete retooling of this team.....and the way our roster is put together, and lack of great prospects in the pipeline, maybe short of Franson....we are looking at a 3-5 year rebuilding program at least.

Our market just can't take that.

Also, one of the main reasons that UFA's of any quality have wanted to come to the hockey Siberia known as Nashville has been our stability in management and coaching staff....every one of them have sited that. You have to believe that we would go through a drought of top line free agents wanting to sign here until we proved that we were again a contender with a completely new regime.

It just seems like people don't think through all the ramifications when they start screaming for wholesale changes.
Huh? First off, any "new" coach is going to know what the team is made up of and would have to conform to what players we have. Just say Crispy (or anyone for that matter) was our "new" coach. Do you really think he would try to change everything? No way. Do you really think they would want to go through more rebuilding? No way. They would work with what they have and try to improve upon that. I don't think they would hire a coach that wanted to rebuild.

The majority of the blame for this (so far) HAS to go somewhere. We know it is not the talent. They are not properly motivated. Why? I am not ibehind the scenes like you handtrick, so what gives? You woiuld have better answers than I would. So please shed some light on what the problem is? From this view, it is a motivation and determination problem... That equals coach to me.

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04-20-2007, 02:15 PM
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The problem that most don't appear to grasp is that any major change in coaching styles would require a complete retooling of this team.....and the way our roster is put together, and lack of great prospects in the pipeline, maybe short of Franson....we are looking at a 3-5 year rebuilding program at least.

Our market just can't take that.

Also, one of the main reasons that UFA's of any quality have wanted to come to the hockey Siberia known as Nashville has been our stability in management and coaching staff....every one of them have sited that. You have to believe that we would go through a drought of top line free agents wanting to sign here until we proved that we were again a contender with a completely new regime.

It just seems like people don't think through all the ramifications when they start screaming for wholesale changes.
I know we've been through this before, but I don't think a new coach necessarily means you have to gut the team. Some guys would have to move on, but I think our core would remain relatively intact...and I don't think a new coach hurts our credibility with free agents any more than being known as the team that dominates the regular season only to get spanked in the playoffs. Look at Detroit after Bowman retired...went to Dave Lewis...now to Mike Babcock. In that time, they've brought along their young players(Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lebda, Hudler, etc) while retaining their veteran core(Lidstrom, Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom) pretty seamlessly.
I don't think we need some radical philsophical change. Overall, I think our system works from game to game. The problem is that when we run into something that it DOESN'T work against, we simply don't know what to do. Personnel wise, I'm not sure that Trotz knows how or is able to coach the "veterans" on the team. We've decried his methods with the young players...but historically, we've seen that players like Kariya, Arnott...and going back to Walker...get something of a pass, out of respect for their body of work. I'd like to see someone come in that will hold these guys accountable. They're paid a lot of money to do something they're not...bring it when it matters the most. As amazing as Kariya can be, 4 point nights vs the Blue Jackets aren't what he's paid for. No one remembers the night Arnott scores 2 goals against an eastern conference team in November. It's silly to blame that all on Trotz, but it's silly to give him a free pass on it, as well.

Anyway, I'm digressing and getting into my frustrations with Trotz again...but the point I was trying to make...a new coach doesn't necessarily mean a rebuild.

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04-20-2007, 02:25 PM
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I know we've been through this before, but I don't think a new coach necessarily means you have to gut the team. Some guys would have to move on, but I think our core would remain relatively intact...and I don't think a new coach hurts our credibility with free agents any more than being known as the team that dominates the regular season only to get spanked in the playoffs. Look at Detroit after Bowman retired...went to Dave Lewis...now to Mike Babcock. In that time, they've brought along their young players(Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lebda, Hudler, etc) while retaining their veteran core(Lidstrom, Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom) pretty seamlessly.
I don't think we need some radical philsophical change. Overall, I think our system works from game to game. The problem is that when we run into something that it DOESN'T work against, we simply don't know what to do. Personnel wise, I'm not sure that Trotz knows how or is able to coach the "veterans" on the team. We've decried his methods with the young players...but historically, we've seen that players like Kariya, Arnott...and going back to Walker...get something of a pass, out of respect for their body of work. I'd like to see someone come in that will hold these guys accountable. They're paid a lot of money to do something they're not...bring it when it matters the most. As amazing as Kariya can be, 4 point nights vs the Blue Jackets aren't what he's paid for. No one remembers the night Arnott scores 2 goals against an eastern conference team in November. It's silly to blame that all on Trotz, but it's silly to give him a free pass on it, as well.

Anyway, I'm digressing and getting into my frustrations with Trotz again...but the point I was trying to make...a new coach doesn't necessarily mean a rebuild.
Amen! Thank you!

And maybe this can not all be blamed on Trotz, but he is coach and it is his reponsibility to make this team click. So if the problem is something else, it is Trotz's problem to fix it. He is the mouth piece, he is the rider, he is the commander, so he needs to start acting like it.

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04-20-2007, 02:30 PM
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Amen! Thank you!

And maybe this can not all be blamed on Trotz, but he is coach and it is his reponsibility to make this team click. So if the problem is something else, it is Trotz's problem to fix it. He is the mouth piece, he is the rider, he is the commander, so he needs to start acting like it.
To make an analogy...

If at my company, the numbers and productivity take a slow, steady decline...and I'm given whatever I ask for to make an improvement...and at times, things do improve...invariably returning to the same decline...

...which is more likely to happen...

All of the workers are fired....or the manager is let go?

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04-20-2007, 02:40 PM
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But any winning, proven coach brings in his systems....and just doesn't change everything he has won with, to our group of guys right off the bat.
A transition time has to be expected to develop his "typical" results....you can't expect that to happen right off the bat.

As far as Detroit, that is a bad analogy in my mind....they have a proven puck control system that works...we have no such animal.

We have a speed team, with undersized puck moving defensemen....short of gutting the team...that is what we are going to have unless a major overall is enacted.
Legwand, Sully, Erat, Radulov, Dumont, Arnott, Tootoo are signed on the front line.
Weber, Suter, Zids, and Hamhuis are signed on the back line.
Making a significant change and additions to that core any time soon is going to be extremely expensive through free agency.

I am not saying that a coaching change is not warranted, but any of you that think that we are just going to sail on deep into the Playoffs next year with a major coaching regime change and all the change in systems, chemistry, and organizational upheaval that all that entails are being naive. It is certainly not a given for that to happen.

On the other hand, if "the room" feels that Trotz and the whole coaching staff is the reason that they aren't succeeding in the Playoffs....then a total regime change is necessary.
I don't think the verdict is in yet on that question, though.


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04-20-2007, 02:47 PM
  #24
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To make an analogy...



All of the workers are fired....or the manager is let go?
The manager is let go....not always because it is the right decision, but because it is the easier decision.

I think the hate-on for Trotz colors many posters perception that firing Trotz is the only solution.

Now going three one and dones in a row, may in fact, be the straw that broke the camel's back, and may be Trotz's final undoing....but don't come crying to me when we are on the outside, looking in at the playoffs next year wondering how it could have ever happened.

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04-20-2007, 02:52 PM
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The manager is let go....not always because it is the right decision, but because it is the easier decision.

I think the hate-on for Trotz colors many posters perception that firing Trotz is the only solution.

Now going three one and dones in a row, may in fact, be the straw that broke the camel's back, and may be Trotz's final undoing....but don't come crying to me when we are on the outside, looking in at the playoffs next year wondering how it could have ever happened.
If it takes 1-3 years to a) get the right coach b) the right players that coach desires and c) that coach has a history of being able to take a recent team into the playoffs (more than one round) then so be it ... because Trotz has not yet either 1) win one on the road in the playoffs or 2) shown the ability to get his team in the right position to make that next leap (as evidenced by the zero shots in the first 15 minutes of the 3rd period in game 4) ... then so be it

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