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Old
04-21-2007, 12:43 PM
  #1
Mothra
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Poile

Is Poile not taking any heat for this?

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04-21-2007, 12:59 PM
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ChuckyToGally
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As an outsider point of view, you guys should be really happy with what he did for you. Poile saved your team.

He made a couple great moves. He's a nice GM. The team was just not ready. I could see you be contender for years to come.

You owe that to Poile.

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04-21-2007, 01:12 PM
  #3
SmokeyClause
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezhogin_19 View Post
As an outsider point of view, you guys should be really happy with what he did for you. Poile saved your team.

He made a couple great moves. He's a nice GM. The team was just not ready. I could see you be contender for years to come.

You owe that to Poile.

Poile didn't save anything. I think he's done a fine job, but let's not blow this out of proportion. Poile will take some heat, deservedly or not, for this playoff disaster. This team lacked any veteran leadership on the blueline with any playoff pedigree. It lacked a lot of the mental toughness needed to succeed in the face of adversity. Depending on who you talk to, it lacked a lot more than just what I mentioned.

Like it or not, Poile is responsible for all of this. The dumb penalties, they are Poile's responsibility. He selected the coach. He selected the players. He has to take a fair portion of the blame. The shaky play on the blueline, they are his responsibility too for the same reasons as the first.

He chose to stand pat on the team, top to bottom, at the trade deadline. Whether it was a wise move at the time or not, it resulted in failure. And Poile is responsible for that.

That being said, this franchise is still very solid. Though this really looks like it was our best year now and going forward, we still have a great foundation. Poile needs to learn the lessons provided by this failure and work towards the future. There were a lot of mistakes made by this organization this year that resulted in the outcome that we witnessed in this series. Poile's real worth will be taking this franchise to the next level. He's already shown he can build a regular season dynamo.

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04-21-2007, 01:49 PM
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Mothra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
Poile didn't save anything. I think he's done a fine job, but let's not blow this out of proportion. Poile will take some heat, deservedly or not, for this playoff disaster. This team lacked any veteran leadership on the blueline with any playoff pedigree. It lacked a lot of the mental toughness needed to succeed in the face of adversity. Depending on who you talk to, it lacked a lot more than just what I mentioned.

Like it or not, Poile is responsible for all of this. The dumb penalties, they are Poile's responsibility. He selected the coach. He selected the players. He has to take a fair portion of the blame. The shaky play on the blueline, they are his responsibility too for the same reasons as the first.

He chose to stand pat on the team, top to bottom, at the trade deadline. Whether it was a wise move at the time or not, it resulted in failure. And Poile is responsible for that.

That being said, this franchise is still very solid. Though this really looks like it was our best year now and going forward, we still have a great foundation. Poile needs to learn the lessons provided by this failure and work towards the future. There were a lot of mistakes made by this organization this year that resulted in the outcome that we witnessed in this series. Poile's real worth will be taking this franchise to the next level. He's already shown he can build a regular season dynamo.

well said.....its good to get a well thought out perspective on this from a Nashville fan, me being a Caps fan that was around for the Langway trade and knows what Poile did (and didnt) do for the Capitals.

I think he should absolutely feel some heat. For all the reasons you state. Its a tough draw for sure but if you are talked about as a contender, you have to expect to play, and beat, the good teams. While hind site is always 20/20, expecting to win the Cup without the sort of veteran blueline presence on a team whose 2 goalies had what, 11 games playoff experience combined....well....it's a tall order.

I think he is a quality GM, but im not sure if he is ever going to change. Its like im watching a remake of a mid 80's movie or something....because ive seen this before

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04-21-2007, 02:12 PM
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RaiderDoug
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[QUOTE=SmokeyClause;9020053]

He chose to stand pat on the team, top to bottom, at the trade deadline. Whether it was a wise move at the time or not, it resulted in failure. And Poile is responsible for that.

QUOTE]

I dont know if you can say that.

Nearing the trade deadline, we all wanted another center, and a big physical defenseman.

So, he goes out and gets the #1 center available. And doesnt mortgage too much to do it either.

Then he trades a useless guy who doesnt want to be here for a big hitting physical defenseman with cup experience, and then Trotz refuses to play him.

IMHO, this team was well built for a cup run this year, and isnt too far away from putting together another run next year.

I cant see how you can pin the blame on Polie for the end of year slide, Sully getting hurt, Trotz not playing VV, Kariya vanishing, etc.

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04-21-2007, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
I dont know if you can say that.

Nearing the trade deadline, we all wanted another center, and a big physical defenseman.

So, he goes out and gets the #1 center available. And doesnt mortgage too much to do it either.

Then he trades a useless guy who doesnt want to be here for a big hitting physical defenseman with cup experience, and then Trotz refuses to play him.

IMHO, this team was well built for a cup run this year, and isnt too far away from putting together another run next year.

I cant see how you can pin the blame on Polie for the end of year slide, Sully getting hurt, Trotz not playing VV, Kariya vanishing, etc.

Forsberg was not acquired at the trade deadline, which was my point. One could argue that we still had holes to fill. And, because we did not mortgage the future on Forsberg, we still had several pieces of interest to fill said holes.

As for the bolded part...as someone who is just now learning the responsibilities of having to work within a leadership capacity, it is Poile's fault for everything that goes on. That's just the way it works. Sully got hurt? Poile knew this could happen (it happened last year) and didn't adequately fill the potential gap. Trotz not playing VV? Well, Poile hired and retained Trotz. And Poile acquired VV. Kariya vanishing? Well, Poile is responsible for the acquisition of Kariya, which while a unabashed regular success, was a monumental postseason failure.

Using the logic you've displayed in the bolded sentence, it'd be difficult to rationalize firing many of the world's most incompetent CEOs. Many dissasociate themselves with the lower level operations of their respective firms. They are merely in charge of the high level ongoings. And at a high-level, it's very difficult to pin blame because failures are generally the result of many lower-level shortcomings.

But you are inevitably responsible for EVERYTHING (I cannot emphasize that enough) that goes on below you. There is some lee-way granted the further the failure is removed from the ultimate decision maker, but blame always flows upwards.

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04-21-2007, 03:32 PM
  #7
Mothra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
I cant see how you can pin the blame on Polie for the end of year slide, Sully getting hurt, Trotz not playing VV, Kariya vanishing, etc.
its not so much pinning it on him....but he deserves some heat and failing to get past the first round next season should mean the end.

His teams, for years, all seem to fall far short of expectations in the post season. He seems to make the right moves, or at least solid ones, but its a pretty obvious trend IMO. The Caps had some legit teams in the 80's that more times than not lost to teams lower (some times much lower) in the standings....every year there is valid reasons...but its every year

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04-21-2007, 03:42 PM
  #8
SmokeyClause
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
its not so much pinning it on him....but he deserves some heat and failing to get past the first round next season should mean the end.
I would tend to agree with this. I think Trotz gets the axe for failure this year. A fourth straight first round exit will mean Poile's departure too. It may seem unfair to some, but the patience Leipold has shown to this point isn't limitless. Failure, if acheived, will eventually catch up to anyone.

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04-21-2007, 03:44 PM
  #9
Seth Lake
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I agree with RaiderDoug that we definitely didn't stand pat at the trading deadline...unless you are only counting the moves made within the 48 hours preceding the deadline as trading deadline moves.

I do not regret the Forsberg trade and as a matter of fact I applaud Poile for going out and getting Peter in a Nashville uniform. We can all argue whether or not Forsberg fit within the Nashville team system very well, but he adjusted and clearly made an impact on this franchise and on this market and not only will his presence here be carried on for years to come through Radulov's play, but it will also be here in the form of Forsberg jerseys and other merchandise. In addition, our market has developed new fans because of the acquistion and generated a lot of media attention that we otherwise would have never received.

I firmly believe that the Walker-Vasicek-Belanger-Vishnevski series of trades were all solid trades as well. At the time Walker was traded he was coming off of a serious injury that severely impacted his game last season and he was the most replaceable of our glut of wingers. We needed a center with size and two-way ability and got Vasicek from Carolina in what I would deem as a redemption trade for both franchises. Vasicek was coming off of a torn ACL, but like Walker had shown the ability to be a solid two-way player prior to injury. Vasicek simply didn't work out here. Yes, you can argue that Walker had a great year, but still...I wouldn't have done anything different.

The acquistion of Eric Belanger for Vasicek only to see Belanger headed to Atlanta less than 24 hours later for Vitaly Vishnevski was one of the more interesting deals and really just fell into the lap of Poile IMO. Belanger was acquired to fill our third line center role that Vasicek was initially acquired to fill. Belanger fit our system a lot better due to his speed and might have actually worked out, but we also had a major need for a veteran stay-at-home defenseman and were actively looking to fill that hole at the same time. Atlanta was in the market for a third line center as well and I believe they had their eyes on Belanger all along, but would not trade within division because both the Thrashers and Hurricanes were battling for the same playoff spot. I believe that when Belanger was acquired that Don Waddell immediately picked up the phone and dialed Poile to inquire about Belanger and use his veteran stay-at-home defensemen as a bargaining chip. IMO, getting a third line center is much cheaper usually than a veteran stay-at-home defenseman...especially when you are already in discussions with Paul Holmgren in Philadelphia about acquiring Peter Forsberg.

Really scratching my head as to why Vishnevski didn't play more in either the regular season or in the playoffs, but...I can't answer that question with any confidence...so I won't.

Anyhow, I think Poile is a great general manager and although he has not had much success in the playoffs in either Washington or Nashville...he has stayed ahead of the curve in recent years.

We built the NHL's best crop of young defensemen through a shrewd drafting philosophy and have already reaped the benefits of those selections at the NHL level (Weber, Hamhuis, Suter), but more importantly we still have a solid group of defensive prospects still in our stables (although they are not as strong as prior to the Forsberg trade - Franson, Laakso, Koistinen, Kulyash, Sulzer, etc), and we have been able to use those assets to better our franchise (Forsberg trade).

Last summer though we saw a change in the drafting philosophy to something I think many of us are calling for today and outsiders from all over the world are saying we need. SIZE!

After selecting Nashville native and US National Team player Blake Geoffrion in the second round (which I think was admittedly a combination of BPA and local connection), we drafted SIZE. Ryan Flynn, Niko Snellman, Viktor Sjodin all guys with SIZE and two-way ability. Really you can say this goes back to our selection of Ryan Maki a couple of seasons back as well.

To wrap up, I think we have a solid group of prospects in this organization. No one outside of Franson is a sure-fire blue chip prospect, IMO, but still we have some prospect depth at all positions and I believe we will continue to develop/replenish that as the summer gets into full swing. On top of that there was a clear organizational philosophy shift last season to drafting SIZE and I think although we won't see that as clearly in this draft as last season, we will see a that play a large factor in deciding who we believe the BPA is during this summer's draft. Poile gave this team the weapons to succeed this season and although he will share in the blame for this setback...it will not fall directly on his shoulders.

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04-21-2007, 04:28 PM
  #10
SmokeyClause
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
I agree with RaiderDoug that we definitely didn't stand pat at the trading deadline...unless you are only counting the moves made within the 48 hours preceding the deadline as trading deadline moves.
Forsberg was acquired almost two full weeks before the deadline. We can argue all day about whether or not that occurred at the deadline. But that wasn't my point. My point was that the trade deadline came and went with noticeable holes on the Preds roster. These holes were not addressed in anything more than cursory fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
Poile gave this team the weapons to succeed this season and although he will share in the blame for this setback...it will not fall directly on his shoulders.
I would agree that Poile, in large part, gave this team the weapons to succeed. At the very least, he gave this team the weapons to make it to the second round. But filling his team with weapons doesn't mean a GM's job is done there. He is forced to put a leader in place to effectively use the weapons. And if Trotz' head rolls in the coming weeks, it'll be an admission by Poile that he had the wrong man in place. He'll have to shoulder some blame for that.

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04-21-2007, 04:29 PM
  #11
Mothra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
We built the NHL's best crop of young defensemen through a shrewd drafting philosophy and have already reaped the benefits of those selections at the NHL level (Weber, Hamhuis, Suter), but more importantly we still have a solid group of defensive prospects still in our stables
I cant help but think of all those Cap teams with scoring D...one had three 20 goal scoring dmen (Hatcher, Iafrate, Cote, not to mention Calle Johansson with 45 points)

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04-21-2007, 04:37 PM
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Seth Lake
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I can't really disagree with either of the replies to my post so far, but the key point I wanted to make out of that post that probably got lost in all the other writing was that I think we have been hearing a lot about needing two-way big players. Admittedly that was San Jose's major advantage in this series.

My point is that Poile is already working on addressing that concern for the long-term through the draft, but obviously now we are going to have to see if he can address it in the short-term through free agency and trades.

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04-21-2007, 05:22 PM
  #13
triggrman
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Poile put a very talented group on the ice but when the coach waits until his team is down 2 goals to put his most talented rookie on the ice, when Abid gets more time than Arnott in the 3rd period when trailing by one and Zidlicky continues to get ice time it's tough to win.

But Vern Fiddler did score a goal.

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