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Old
04-21-2007, 02:45 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
Okay, it makes sense when you say what you mean. Instead of relying on telepathy. Talking about draft positions with regards to actual players is a mistake and that's what it came off as.
O'Marrs fits into what this team seems to be building. He's a hard-working N/S guy. Good frame that can still add weight to. Good be a decent 2nd or very god 3rd line center IMO.

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04-21-2007, 02:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
O'Marrs fits into what this team seems to be building. He's a hard-working N/S guy. Good frame that can still add weight to. Good be a decent 2nd or very god 3rd line center IMO.
Agree, I said it earlier, I think he'll have the same effect on the lineup as someone like Avery. Experts will say he's a third liner, but with his hockey savvy and very focused skill, he'll contribute on a top two line and not look out of place. With these guys its more about fitting the pieces rather than finding six guys with Kovalchuk, supremely talented skill.

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04-21-2007, 02:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
You mean for average goalies in their 30's?

Rolie brought a 1st round pick for the Wild, and Biron just brought Buffalo the 1st pick in the 2nd round.

Now what would a top 3 goalie prospect in the world bring back?
Rolie is an established NHL starter. Biron is an established NHL starter and got a second round pick in return. Montoya is a maybe never will be who will be a backup and you think he will command more than Biron?

Montoya is a top 3 goalie prospect in the world? Not sure this is true but let's say it is for purpose of this discussion:

Being a prospect is one thing. Being a star at the next level is a whole different thing. The road is littered with great prospects who ended up being nothing.

Do you want Monty to backup next year? How many games do you think he should play? You think if he plays 30 games it might disturb our #1 superstar goalie? Is that a smart way to run a team. Or we could play Monty 10-15 games, in which case he will fetch less than he will today.

The Rangers have one of the top 5 goalies, perhaps one of the top 2, in hockey and he is young and there are some people who seem more concerned about losing Montoya than destroying what is for the Rangers an amazing setup and future in nets.

You want Monty to backup next year; how many games do you think he should play?

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04-21-2007, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Not having any prospect goalie depth after Al I don't think I'd be inclined to deal him for O'Marra and a mid 1st rd. pick. Montoya IMO is going to be a legit No. 1 NHL goaltender and trading that for a couple potential third liners doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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04-21-2007, 03:50 PM
  #55
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I would definitely do that. We have Lunqvist as our goalie of the future, and Montoya isn't going to see a lot of action in the NHL as a Ranger if Henrik stays healthy. O'Marra would just add to our group of talented young stars, and him possibly playing on a line with Prucha and Callahan intrigues me. This deal is good for both sides, and I would love to see this happen.

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04-21-2007, 04:00 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Wow..that very even IMO.

Getting O'Marra would give us a GREAT 3rd line center and a leader for the future..(when I mean great I mean a top 3rd liner in the NHL). We also get a 15th overall pick with our 17th pick.

We give up Montoya but we have Lundqvist...(but ((Knock on wood)) if he gets injured or something, we have nothing to fall back on).


I wouldn't by any means jump on it..but its worth thinking about...which is more then I can say about pretty much all the Montoya proposals.

Again, IMO...Montoya will sooner or later..will be moved...when the best deal comes up I hope Sather pulls that trigger.
Terrible to trade AM for O'Mara - lets see what Montoya does in the post season, if he does well than we can use him to move up in the draft as opposed to picking up a 3rd line center. We already have a 3rd line center IMO in Dubinsky for next year and there is no need to trade for another.

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04-21-2007, 10:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't see it that way. The Rangers are not deep at center. And they add another first round pick.
yeah, okay, I guess I'm forgetting that Cliche was traded and that Dupont s a winger now. still O'Marra is very similar to what we have in Pyatt, IMO, so I don't see it as the greatest fit. the first round pick is what makes it quantity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Um kay. ??? back at you.

My point is we raved about getting Bourret. O'Marra was actually a higher pick than him. Let's not discount what kind of player O'Marra could be.
if Bourret was acquired as the centrepiece in a deal sending Montoya the other way, no one would be raving.

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04-21-2007, 10:32 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger1135 View Post
Terrible to trade AM for O'Mara - lets see what Montoya does in the post season, if he does well than we can use him to move up in the draft as opposed to picking up a 3rd line center. We already have a 3rd line center IMO in Dubinsky for next year and there is no need to trade for another.
Dubinsky will be our future 2nd line center...he's got too much offensive skill to be on the 3rd line.

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04-21-2007, 11:38 PM
  #59
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This is the last offseason you can trade Montoya as a "high-end" prospect.

He can't be hidden in the minors beyond this season without other teams throwing up flags/question marks over his upside.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if you trade Al Montoya after being a backup, teams will be evaluating him on his real play in the NHL. No more top-10 draft pick hype, no more "American goalie of the future"...no more Cuban heartbreak stories...his actual performance.

And unless Al plays lights out or shows solid and consistent glimses of being a true, elite #1, his value is exactly with all the other very good backups who could be #1s on other teams...a 2nd round pick & change (see Kipper, see Biron, see Noronena, etc.)

Unfortunately, goalie prospects are not like fine wines. Everyone has this belief that you can hold on them and their values just escalate. But with goalies, teams always look for something proven. And goalies are as speculative as they come. The only situation where Alvaro Montoya fetches more than he would in this offseason is if Lundqvist gets hurt, Montoya fills in with a top 5 (league) season performance, and then Lundqvist is healthy for return.

Moving Montoya will require a great deal of creativity and insight within the Ranger organization. While many greedy (and out of touch fans) believe a player of Horton's ceiling/development can be found, that is just a bit too unrealistic.

Draft position means less and less every second after you're picked...it's performance...sooner or later, no one cares how you did in your Third Grade Spelling Bee

This is the last year he's a prospect...from here on out, you're trading his performance (good or bad)

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Old
04-22-2007, 12:40 AM
  #60
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Nyr-phi

Let's put another quick spin on this...

how about:

PHI:
Steve Downie
Nashville's Pick (22nd)

for

NYR:
Al Montoya

Montoya is about 3 projected years away before being a top tier, number 1 goalie. This is potential/ceiling. While the Flyers did just sign Biron, he's a midpack, #1 goalie and not a franchise keeper. He's the type of goalie with a good team that gets you to the 2nd round, plays well, will win you games, but will not steal a series (ie. Manny Fernandez).

Now the Flyers have done an admirable job of re-tooling and have added some serious meat (Coburn and Parent) to a weak pool of defensive prospects. But Paul Holmgren has a HUGE hole at goalie...

Now I know Ranger fans would demand Carter or Richards for Montoya, but I see this as being a very fair and balanced deal. Anyone bite...a VERY solid, GRITTY 2nd/3rd line center plus another high pick (goalie!)?


Last edited by frozenrubber: 04-22-2007 at 01:08 AM. Reason: typo
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Old
04-22-2007, 12:57 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
Let's put another quick spin on this...

how about:

PHI:
Steve Downie
Nashville's Pick (15th)

for

NYR:
Al Montoya

Montoya is about 3 projected years away before being a top tier, number 1 goalie. This is potential/ceiling. While the Flyers did just sign Biron, he's a midpack, #1 goalie and not a franchise keeper. He's the type of goalie with a good team that gets you to the 2nd round, plays well, will win you games, but will not steal a series (ie. Manny Fernandez).

Now the Flyers have done an admirable job of re-tooling and have added some serious meat (Coburn and Parent) to a weak pool of defensive prospects. But Paul Holmgren has a HUGE hole at goalie...

Now I know Ranger fans would demand Carter or Richards for Montoya, but I see this as being a very fair and balanced deal. Anyone bite...a VERY solid, GRITTY 2nd/3rd line center plus another high pick (goalie!)?
Dont think these division rivals like to trade. And I disagree that Montoya is 3 years away from being a #1 NHL goalie. Maybe not in his prime but he will be better than a lot of guys that were NHL starters in 06-07.

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04-22-2007, 06:12 AM
  #62
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If all O'Marra projects to being is a very good 3rd liner--that along with a mid round first pick is not enough for us to trade away our goaltending insurance. As noted above Pyatt might turn out just as well or maybe even better than O'Marra. What the Rangers lack isn't forward prospect depth--it's elite forward prospect depth. O'Marra would be just one more player in a pool about a dozen at that point. Montoya projects to be better at his position than O'Marra and notwithstanding the potential of the other mid first round pick we would get he would project to be the best player in the deal in the long run. Goaltender is the most critical position on a hockey team and we would be trading what amounts to our only good prospect to address an area that does not really need it. Not a good idea.

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Old
04-22-2007, 08:15 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
Let's put another quick spin on this...

how about:

PHI:
Steve Downie
Nashville's Pick (22nd)

for

NYR:
Al Montoya

Montoya is about 3 projected years away before being a top tier, number 1 goalie. This is potential/ceiling. While the Flyers did just sign Biron, he's a midpack, #1 goalie and not a franchise keeper. He's the type of goalie with a good team that gets you to the 2nd round, plays well, will win you games, but will not steal a series (ie. Manny Fernandez).

Now the Flyers have done an admirable job of re-tooling and have added some serious meat (Coburn and Parent) to a weak pool of defensive prospects. But Paul Holmgren has a HUGE hole at goalie...

Now I know Ranger fans would demand Carter or Richards for Montoya, but I see this as being a very fair and balanced deal. Anyone bite...a VERY solid, GRITTY 2nd/3rd line center plus another high pick (goalie!)?

Personally, I'd rather not deal Montoya to someone in the East, let alone our own division, let alone Philly.

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Old
04-22-2007, 08:35 AM
  #64
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To Washington: Montoya, Dawes, 1st rounder



To New York: Semin, 4th rounder

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04-22-2007, 08:45 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Seems like a very interesting propoal and fair value...could happen. Of course, I have to caveat all that by saying I'm not exactly sure how good O'Mara is. I am in the move sooner than later school of thought on Montoya. Sometimes, great prospects lose their luster over time. Back when Frank Cshen was running the Mets they did a great job of hyping their prospects (anyone remember David West?) and then traded them at the peak of their value before they became journeyman major leaguers. No one knows better than the Rangers what they really have here. If Schoenfield is as smart as many think he is he's already told Sather and Maloney exactly what we are dealing with. And all of the early pulls indicate to me that Schoney may not be all that sold on Alvaro. It only takes one team to make a big trade and if the right offer comes along, I have no doubt the Rangers will jump...now, tomorrow or a year from now.
I take what Schoeny is doing with Montoya is tough love. Watching Montoya throughout his college career one of the things I was concerned about was his occassional lack of concentration. Some of the goals he would let in I felt stemmed from an obviously lack of concentration. I think he still must do that. I think Schoeny is teaching him an object lesson in concentration. You maintain your focus from the drop of the puck until the buzzer sounds to end the game. Whenever Schoeny sees him not keeping that focus and he starts badly he yanks him and he will keep yanking him until he masters the technique of keeping his focus. That my opinion.

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04-22-2007, 08:57 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
O'Marrs fits into what this team seems to be building. He's a hard-working N/S guy. Good frame that can still add weight to. Good be a decent 2nd or very god 3rd line center IMO.
O'Marra was the guy I hoped we would pick. I want a grizzled, tough as nails, N/S hard forechecking game. I want old time hockey where we punish the opposing team, not the stupid mindless checking that Hartley has his player do, but an orchestrated style of play like the old oilers or canadiens. I want a well balanced team that can play it anyway the opposition wants to play and beat them at their own game. We have the components I believe to play that style and sarts in goal with Lundqvist and Montoya and is followed by Tyutin, Staal, Sauer, Girardi, Pock and Sanginuetti(sp). We need a big time physical defender to round out the backline. Up front we have the makings of the kind of forechecking forwards who have speed, grit and the requiste nastiness their games like Dubi, Dupont, Callahan, Korpedo, Avery, etc.

Any move we make with Montoya has to be to start adding pieces to the equation that we currently do not have. Horton would be an excellent addition and if that meant moving Prucha I maybe inclined to do it. I would hold out for Montoya and a lesser prospect & a pick especially if the rumblings are true that Horton wants out.

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04-22-2007, 09:02 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by collinsjimster View Post
To Washington: Montoya, Dawes, 1st rounder



To New York: Semin, 4th rounder
Lose our trading a #1 and washington can keep their 4th round pick and that is a deal I would do. I don't know about Washington though. Semin is a player.

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04-22-2007, 09:41 AM
  #68
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*No to Ryan O'marra. He's O'verrated.

*Never trading Monty to Philly. Never.

*Washington is not looking to trade AO's best friend, not to mention one heck of a player on a team that is thin, so thin, upfront. Plus they are high on top picks Neuvirth & Varlamov.

Personally, I don't trade Monty now, i'd like to see him win the backup job & work a full season with Allaire

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04-22-2007, 11:46 AM
  #69
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I dont like this trade much. If you look at what teams were giving up at the trade deadline, if you hold off on tading Al and give him some games next year and he is very good, you could probably get a lot from a team that has goaltending issues. The only way I would trade Montoya is to a west coast team. I had heard Florida was a possibilty but he would kill us for the next 10 years

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04-22-2007, 11:54 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by motime42 View Post
The only way I would trade Montoya is to a west coast team. I had heard Florida was a possibilty but he would kill us for the next 10 years
Maybe so, but it's not like we fight it out for the division title. As long as we don't trade Montoya to a divisional rival I'll be ok with it if the package is solid. In any event, I still think we're at least a year (if not 2) away from dealing him.

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04-22-2007, 12:06 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Maybe so, but it's not like we fight it out for the division title. As long as we don't trade Montoya to a divisional rival I'll be ok with it if the package is solid. In any event, I still think we're at least a year (if not 2) away from dealing him.
I agree with you because if Montoya does what is expected, he will have a ton more trade value. This trade could give the Rangers a chance at few Cups. Id say wait and get all you possibly can for Montoya

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Old
04-22-2007, 01:03 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
I take what Schoeny is doing with Montoya is tough love. Watching Montoya throughout his college career one of the things I was concerned about was his occassional lack of concentration. Some of the goals he would let in I felt stemmed from an obviously lack of concentration. I think he still must do that. I think Schoeny is teaching him an object lesson in concentration. You maintain your focus from the drop of the puck until the buzzer sounds to end the game. Whenever Schoeny sees him not keeping that focus and he starts badly he yanks him and he will keep yanking him until he masters the technique of keeping his focus. That my opinion.
That's an interesting perspective. I had read Montoya was very emotional and mentally tough but pre-draft evaluations and what happens in the pros can be two different things. I'm going to pose that question to someone who might have the answer and see what I can find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
Lose our trading a #1 and washington can keep their 4th round pick and that is a deal I would do. I don't know about Washington though. Semin is a player.
Nope...Semin is a head case. I would trade the same package to Florida for Horton though.

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Old
04-22-2007, 02:28 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HVPOLARBEARS19 View Post
No, no no no no no no.
NO.
Look at the successful teams lately...Anaheim has Giggy and Bryzgalov, SJ has Nabokov and Toskala, Carolina had Ward and Gerber, NSH has Vokoun and Mason, Minny had Roli and Fernandez, and now Backstrom. All these teams have split situations.
Lundqvist is better than all of these goalies, and Montoya might be also. Having a duo of Montoya and Lundqvist would be amazing.
For some reason, everyone feels that you shouldn't have a good backup goalie, or a split situation. If Lundqvist played 55 games a season and Montoya had the other 27 or even 60 and 22 that'd be a hell of a situation.
We don't need to play like the Devils and have our starting goalie play 78 games a year, and we don't need to trade Montoya just because he's a good young player with a lot of value.
Montoya has been absolutely lights out in Hartford and might end up being even better than Lundqvist if that's even imaginable.
I'm not impressed with O'Marra and the Isles first round pick is a mid rounder.
Hold onto Montoya and do what SJ did. Now if one falters or gets hurt, no problem put the other one in.
Look what happened to Lundqvist last year in the playoffs. He was dead tired and hurt, and Kevin Weekes couldn't pull us out of it.
Just keep Montoya for now, he's a great goalie and just because we have one already doesn't mean we should just go trade whatever else we have.
Yeah BUT paying 2 number 1 goalies is a little much so if thats what you want to do, it cant last for more than a few years when Montoya is a free agent. For that reason nom atter what, we have to trade him eventually. Also I can tun the duo thing around and say look at Atlantas combo. How did that work for them?

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Old
04-22-2007, 08:08 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
That's an interesting perspective. I had read Montoya was very emotional and mentally tough but pre-draft evaluations and what happens in the pros can be two different things. I'm going to pose that question to someone who might have the answer and see what I can find out.
According to my source, there's no definite pattern on the multiple pulls -- sometime's it's Al not playing well and sometimes it's the team not playing well. Apparently he has thoroughly outplayed Toivonen so far in the playoffs so that's a good thing.

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04-22-2007, 08:47 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collinsjimster View Post
To Washington: Montoya, Dawes, 1st rounder



To New York: Semin, 4th rounder
Sold!!

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