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Old
04-24-2007, 12:36 PM
  #51
barrytrotzsneck
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I'm not arguing that the problem may have been lack of execution on the part of the players...

but ultimately, that comes back to the coach. Part of the responsibility of an NHL coach is ensuring that all your plugs are firing. When they're not, the verbage or the action is on your shoulders to ensure that they START to fire.

I don't think my disappointment in Trotz stops at the playoffs, either. For the last three seasons, we've seen a pretty poor showing in "big games," as well. The late season collapses(even when healthy,) the tendency to 'look past' weaker teams at times...it all says something about the coaching AND the leadership group of the team( who don't get a pass here, either).

As for player comments...that stuff is relatively par for the course. In fact, I was kind of irked by Kariya's comment, "We've overachieved..."

How? By being given a lineup that, at the time of the Forsberg deal, analysts were declaring easily the most dangerous, deepest in the league...and skidding down the stretch\getting humiliated in the first round? Or maybe he was talking about last year, where we also competed for the division until 'coming back to earth' and getting manhandled in the playoffs. If anything, this team has underachieved...and like Kariya says...the coach deserves some credit for that. But maybe...in a world where the team thinks it has accomplished more than it naturally should have...maybe there's a perception problem.

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04-24-2007, 01:09 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
If they thought that he was the major reason they didn't advance, they certainly wouldn't have come out and defended him.

The reason[s] that we didn't advance doesn't fit in to the neat little package of "Fire Trotz," it is much more multifactoral than that...but the bottom line is that the player's didn't get it done on the ice....and they, for the most part have acknowledged that.

It is interesting....I called XM radio and asked Phil Esposito....where does the buck stop when you are assigning blame for failure for a team not getting the job done....
His response was that in all his years as a player, GM, and coach....he has never seen a game where the loss was the coaches fault...it always rests with the players not getting the job done on the ice, and it is their responsibility to bring it, not the coaches.
....One may not agree with Phil, but I thought it was an interesting perspective from a guy that should know a little more about it than any of us armchair GMs...
Good stuff. Interesting to hear Phil Esposito's take on the "blame the coach" ilk.
It seems to be that it's a multi-faceted thing......injuries, players that "just don't bring it", players that take "stupid" penalities, coaches who fail to prepare the team properly, GM who failed to get the team the proper mix of players etc. etc.

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04-24-2007, 01:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
Basher, I think you make valid points.

I would also like to add that I am not sure that David Poile, himself, knows what it takes to go deep into the Playoffs like Lou does.
In 24 straight years of being a GM, Poile has only got to the third round once, and second round five times....Lou has, what, 4 Cups?

Lou [and Brodeur] saw that Julien's way of focusing the team was "lacking" what it took to be a Cup contender this year [most reports are that he was too lax on the team]....so Lou made the change and inserted himself...with reasonable results up to this point.

Poile does not have the coaching experience to ever do what Lou did himself....but I would also argue that having never made a run to to the Cup Finals in 24 years of being a GM......I don't think David Poile really knows what it takes to put together the puzzle to make a team that has what it truly takes to make it through the entire grind we know as the Stanley Cup Finals......both the player puzzle and the coaching philosophy to make it materialize.

So....the players and Trotz deserve their share of the blame, but Poile should not be exempt here.....HIS playoff record would state otherwise.
I take it that you don't want to fire Trotz. Or at the very least, you are playing devil's advocate to the throngs in favor of his departure.

If we keep Trotz, what changes to the roster have to occur so that we can make it out of the first round next year? Trotz has been widely criticized by intelligent and idiotic fans alike on these boards. A lot of those criticism are valid.

My concern with keeping Trotz is what roster will it take to make it past the first round? There's a strong argument that it is a system flaw that keeps us in this rut.

I've heard a few counter that Trotz has created this system around the talent that he has been given. My response to this is why haven't we tried to duplicate Buffalo's system? Living in an Eastern Conference city, I've had the good fortune of watching the Sabres compete approximately a doze times this year.

In my opinion, they are a shining example of what our team could be with the right system implementation. I look at the makeup of Buffalo's roster and see distinct similarities with how each team is built. Despite this, Buffalo seemed to be a more dominant squad. And the Sabres had significant injury issues, much like the Preds did.

What really impressed me most about Buffalo was their ability to run their system regardless of the situation (i.e. time remaining, score, opposing team). That is something that, for a variety of reasons, we simply cannot do. There are times when it appears that we must get verbal acceptance from the other team allowing us to run our system. If they refuse, we are completely at their mercy. Buffalo, on the other hand, imposes their system upon anyone. And it works.

I've advocated going all out and acquiring a veteran Dman to spell Timonen in our top pairing/SH. So I'm not one that thinks this roster was the best going into the playoffs. I don't think it was the odds on favorite to win the cup. That being said, from the handful of games I've witnessed and interaction with a lot of knowledgable posters such as yourself and 303, it is very evident that we had some system-related flaws that severely impacted our season.

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04-24-2007, 02:24 PM
  #54
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Good post, SC. Agreed on all counts.

The big difference I've noticed in the Sabres and the Preds is that they don't live(or attempt to live) solely off the rush\counterattack. We're both speed-oriented teams, but if you watch them...they use their speed to first gain the zone...and then they use their tenacity\skill(something we SHOULD have, in theory) to keep it there. On the other hand, our game is based off a fast transition\creating turnovers in our end. We streak down the ice, get our pass\shot off...and as soon as the puck is in the possession of the other team, we start skating back down waiting for their reprisal. It wasn't always that way...when we had the "grinder" teams of the early 2000s, we didn't HAVE that kind of speed\passing ability, so we HAD to make it miserable in their end. The result was that we lost games because of lack of skill\talent...rather than a system that's easily thwarted\no plan B for those instances.

I think, coming out of the lockout, David Poile and Barry Trotz foresaw a league where there'd be no obstruction, the neutral zone trap would be phased out, and a speed\passing game would be unstoppable. At times, it looked that way. But the game is slowing down again, and you have to have a contingency plan for those nights...and that's where I've seen little to go on from our coaching staff. The blame doesn't lie on just Trotz...even HT and P303, who might be the most ardent supporters they have at this point...have been quick to admit that our PP being in the lower half of the league is disgraceful given our personnel, and I know that falls more on Horachek.

At any rate, I just wanted to add a few things. I'm not one of the "FIRE TROTZ ZOMG HES TEH SUK" crowd, but from a philosophical standpoint, I've seen enough in the past couple of seasons that I *know,* as someone that's coached hockey, traces back to coaching\leadership.

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04-24-2007, 02:40 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I take it that you don't want to fire Trotz. Or at the very least, you are playing devil's advocate to the throngs in favor of his departure.

If we keep Trotz, what changes to the roster have to occur so that we can make it out of the first round next year? Trotz has been widely criticized by intelligent and idiotic fans alike on these boards. A lot of those criticism are valid.

My concern with keeping Trotz is what roster will it take to make it past the first round? There's a strong argument that it is a system flaw that keeps us in this rut.

I've heard a few counter that Trotz has created this system around the talent that he has been given. My response to this is why haven't we tried to duplicate Buffalo's system? Living in an Eastern Conference city, I've had the good fortune of watching the Sabres compete approximately a doze times this year.

In my opinion, they are a shining example of what our team could be with the right system implementation. I look at the makeup of Buffalo's roster and see distinct similarities with how each team is built. Despite this, Buffalo seemed to be a more dominant squad. And the Sabres had significant injury issues, much like the Preds did.

What really impressed me most about Buffalo was their ability to run their system regardless of the situation (i.e. time remaining, score, opposing team). That is something that, for a variety of reasons, we simply cannot do. There are times when it appears that we must get verbal acceptance from the other team allowing us to run our system. If they refuse, we are completely at their mercy. Buffalo, on the other hand, imposes their system upon anyone. And it works.

I've advocated going all out and acquiring a veteran Dman to spell Timonen in our top pairing/SH. So I'm not one that thinks this roster was the best going into the playoffs. I don't think it was the odds on favorite to win the cup. That being said, from the handful of games I've witnessed and interaction with a lot of knowledgable posters such as yourself and 303, it is very evident that we had some system-related flaws that severely impacted our season.
Honestly Smokey, I am ambivalent about firing or keeping Trotz at this point.
Much of my postings on this thread in particular have been in response to the knee-jerk call for his head that many posters here, as well as many more on NP.com have screamed out since our early dimise. Much of that vitriol has been an emotional blame game that is frankly not well thought out for the most part. So I have, in fact, been trying to play the devil's advocate, to some degree, to try and interject some reflection and analysis to the situation. As SLake and I have both tried to point out....it is a much more complex decison to change coaching regimes than most people would think on the surface and considerable care needs to be taken to find the right "match" for the personnel that we have under contract. I don't know that there is a coach available that wouldn't require and significant rebuilding process to impliment his system in the short term. As I said in a prior post....I don't think we have 2-3 years of ramp up time to make it happen, as precarious as our franchise is now in as attendance quotas for revenue sharing are in place coupled with fan expectation that our success in the regular season has brought on.

As to your Buffalo question it is a valid one. They DO impart their will on their opponents it does seem, unlike us. I am not sure if that is a system or personnel etiology....or more likely both. I think Ruff and Trotz are both "player coaches" and genuinely liked by their players.
Truely, I think the lack of accountability for stupid penalties comes more from the "room" but is also fostered by a "hands off" approach by Trotz that fosters the seeming lack of accountability despite all the lip service. Coaches like Torts, Hitch, Sutter, and Babcock are all not as "liked" by their players, but tend to have a much shorter flame out period because of this adversarial relationship.

Do certain players not want to play under the whip....most likely yes......
Are these the same players that maybe don't have the mentally toughness to dig down deep when it all counts.... maybe yes as well.
Are Trotz's and Poile's "caring family-type enviroment" and "Preds culture" that Fiddler and other players speak of a weakness when it comes to doing what it takes to win in the playoffs...maybe so.
Is this why Poile doesn't have a good track record in the Playoffs....the lack of the "Lou Lamorillo fear-factor"...could very well be.

Anyway...there are many issues at play here....many obvious, but many more that lie below the surface. The fact the Poile and Trotz have worked "so well together" in the past makes me think that it will be very difficult for him to cut Trotz loose given the support that both Leipold and the players have voiced so far in support of Trotz.
I think Poile will do the "easy 'Patient Poile' choice" and sign Trotz and his staff for another year and trumpet the successes of the organization as a whole, despite the failures in the Playoffs.

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04-24-2007, 03:10 PM
  #56
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Handtrick and/or 303, could you provide an overview of the responsibilities of Trotz, Peterson, and Horacheck as well as their managerial style (players' coach, tyrant, etc.)?

Thank you.

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04-25-2007, 08:59 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drsingle View Post
Handtrick and/or 303, could you provide an overview of the responsibilities of Trotz, Peterson, and Horacheck as well as their managerial style (players' coach, tyrant, etc.)?

Thank you.
As we all know, Peterson is in charge of the PK and Horachek is in charge of the PP.
Peterson also spends more time with the defensemen. More defining of duties would be speculation on my part.

As to managerial styles....I think I don't have enough proof to categorize definitively each ones. I thought initially that Horachek would be good cop and Peterson would be bad cop, but since it was Peterson that went up and spent special time with Suter, one-on-one....I don't know if that categorization can be made.
Most of our observations were/are based on individual discussions with the coaches and not seeing how they intereact with the players up close, only from a far, so the tone of discussion with the player can't be fully and accurately assessed as far as I am concerned.
I'll tell you what, Peterson is the last one that I would want to have up my arse, though.
Horachek and Trotz will laugh with the players at times, rarely will I see Peterson do it, but that may be, in part, because of the Parkinsonsim as it tends to mask emotion display during facial expressions [hence known as "masked facies"].
I probably have had the least interaction with Horachek of the three.

Sorry it wasn't more helpful.

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04-25-2007, 11:13 AM
  #58
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Here is an article from today's City Paper regarding Trotz.

Including this quote:

Quote:
“It does bother me what I have heard. I spent a day just questioning if I would have done anything different during this season and the playoffs. I went through the whole spectrum. And with a clear conscience I can say I don’t think I would have changed anything. We brought our `A' game. Our staff has no regrets.”

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04-25-2007, 11:22 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Here is an article from today's City Paper regarding Trotz.

Including this quote:
I just read that, and honestly...that's kind of what's bothering me. For a couple seasons, it seems like every time we have a game that anyone would call a stinker(often times including Pete and Terry), there's Trotz in the paper, "I think we did a lot of good things, they just got the bounces. That game could have easily been 6-0 for us instead of them."

Wouldn't change a thing? Brought our A game?

If that was truly the best we could do, if everyone(including Kariya) was running on all cylinders, there's more truth than we'd like to admit that we're a product of a weak division and are a terribly overrated team.

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04-25-2007, 01:40 PM
  #60
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Barry Trotz' decision alone to play Jordin Tootoo on the first line for nearly the whole series?

Also Forsberg and Fiddler?


As the Donald would say.. "You're Fired!"




You're Fired is a registered trademark of Donald Trump, Inc. All rights reserved.

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04-25-2007, 03:10 PM
  #61
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If that was truly the best we could do, if everyone(including Kariya) was running on all cylinders, there's more truth than we'd like to admit that we're a product of a weak division and are a terribly overrated team.
And - that's the scary part. They WERE probably going as hard, fast, and pumped as they could. And that was the best that had to offer...

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04-25-2007, 03:32 PM
  #62
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And - that's the scary part. They WERE probably going as hard, fast, and pumped as they could. And that was the best that had to offer...
No, I don't agree with that. Anyone that saw this team when they were ON knows that they were capable of a lot more than they delivered.

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04-25-2007, 03:47 PM
  #63
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No, I don't agree with that. Anyone that saw this team when they were ON knows that they were capable of a lot more than they delivered.
In all honesty....this team was never "ON" since Sully went down.
When Sully went down, everything that made us a match up problem evaporated.

-Three lines that could beat you...where you had to pick your poison with your best defensive players.
-The threat of a shorty on the PK
-another key player that could bring the puck into the zone with confidence
-a playmaker that made Dumont and Arnott much more lethal than they were by themselves
-the heart and soul of the team.
-a PP finisher as well as playmaker.
-by far the best stickhandler on the team

His loss hurt in so many intertwined ways that I would argue that we were NOT capable of playing "ON," as we knew it, without him in the line up playing to his full capacity.

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04-25-2007, 04:38 PM
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But I could argue that was because of the way we implemented our gameplan. We let other teams consistently dictate the flow of the game, and the dispersion of talent weakened all three scoring lines. Additionally, we didn't compensate for the change in the lineup with the strategy on the ice.........

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04-26-2007, 07:31 PM
  #65
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i'm going to say something that many will disagree with, probably on both sides of the argument..

..we are still a very immature hockey market here. i do believe, that if we were a more mature hockey market, that trotz would be fired.. the outcry would be too big to not fire trotz in a town used to and expecting massive success.. go one and done like we have these past three seasons in a row in Ottawa, or New Jersey, or virtually any established hockey town and the coach would for sure be fired..

however, with so many new hockey fans among our fanbase expectations are generally different than they are in most other markets right now.. among the true "hardcore" fans we have, i would think sentiment runs about 50% toward demanding trotz be fired.. the problem is, is we don't have 25,000 hardcore fans like many franchises.. instead we probably have around 4000 or so that live and breathe this stuff.. the boards here a pretty good cross sample of what i feel the demands are from these 4000 odd type fans.. about half want him gone now, the other half are willing to see him get another chance.. so that would make about 2000 people actually thinking he needs to be gone if you assume we have about 4k hardcore fans..

we then have about 6-8 thousand newer type fans, or fans not quite as hardcore.. i would hazzard to guess the sentiment toward trotz in this group is far more supportive than among the hardcore base.. why? because they're generally less demanding than the hardcore people about this stuff.. so because of this, overall their is less sheer pressure to do something with trotz than there would be if we had more hardcore, older fans of hockey..

i actually went to the 6 new guys i brought in this year and flat out asked them their opinions here about firing trotz or not, to try to measure what 'newer fans' might really think as a group on average.. all six have become good fans that really love this stuff and most didn't miss a game this year (their first real year).. they're all smart sports people, just new to hockey... not really surprisingly, all 6 were amazed that there was even a thought or real discussion of firing trotz right now.. they were all still fairly esctatic over the great regular season, and basically gave trotz a pass for the playoff performance

the problem poile is faced with is trying to please both groups, and to gradually turn soft or newer hockey supporters into hardcore supporters, all the time attracting even more new fans on top of that..

trotz has proven he can win in the regular season.. winning in the regular season regularly is a 'safer' way to grow the fanbase from new fans honestly then making huge changes and taking risks to try to be better in the playoffs, but taking the risk that in doing so you might not be as successful in the regular season (which potentially could prove to be disasterous for the franchise at this point in our history, i simply am not sure we could stand a season of failing to make the playoffs at this stage and still survive as a franchise).. so do you take the "safer" way and not make changes? (knowing you will probably win in the regular season and keep the newer fanbase happy in doing so), or do you take what could be a high risk all or nothing type gamble of bringing in the new and hoping it all works out? (which if it works would have the advantage of satisfying both hard and soft supporters, but if it didn't would slow growth of the fanbase down tremendously and possible be the death of the franchise)

i think this sort of dictates what is most probable here.. and why i'd personally be surprised if trotz isn't brought back for another year.. not saying it's the right or wrong reason, just that this is the type of decision we're facing as a franchise..

personally, i'm not on the trotz must go bandwagon thinking about the big picture here.. as a hardcore, old time fan, i realize we should probably go a different route if we could find an established winner.. but i will also support any decision to give the guy another year if poile goes that way without complaining, because i understand the big picture of where this franchise really is

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04-26-2007, 09:08 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
i'm going to say something that many will disagree with, probably on both sides of the argument..
i do


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
i would hazzard to guess the sentiment toward trotz in this group is far more supportive than among the hardcore base.. why? because they're generally less demanding than the hardcore people about this stuff.
in my experience (with what few preds fans we have here in murray, ky) everyone is against trotz. most of them are like me...they believe trotz can coach, but he just isn't the guy for this team anymore. we need someone new and fresh, and someone that is...not like trotz. i dare not say trotz isn't a guy who could help a team win a cup, but i just dont think it's with this team. but if he stays, which i assume he will, im not gonna be bitter. i'll hope for the best, and hope that trotz is able to adjust some things and use his 0-3 playoff record as a bit of reminder of what not to do.

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04-26-2007, 10:20 PM
  #67
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My experience is much more like pred303, although I'm also biased because I think having Trotz is a good thing.

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04-26-2007, 10:32 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
i'm going to say something that many will disagree with, probably on both sides of the argument..

..we are still a very immature hockey market here. i do believe, that if we were a more mature hockey market, that trotz would be fired.. the outcry would be too big to not fire trotz in a town used to and expecting massive success.. go one and done like we have these past three seasons in a row in Ottawa, or New Jersey, or virtually any established hockey town and the coach would for sure be fired..
Interesting you should bring up Ottawa...
Jacques Martin coach of the Senators from 1996-2004. Ottawa was an expansion team in 1996 (I'm sure there was some slack given), but after 6 years and only to the 2nd round by the statement above surely he should have been fired. He wasn't and the next year they went to game 7 of the Eastern Conf. Finals losing to NJ.

2002 defeated Philadelphia 4-1 First round
lost to Toronto 4-3 Second round
2001 lost to Toronto 4-0 First round
2000 lost to Toronto 4-2 First round
1999 lost to Buffalo 4-0 First round
1998 defeated New Jersey 4-2 First round


In all honesty I'm not a big fan of the Preds, but it's easy to see that they've continuously improved over the years, so don't be too hard on the coach.

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04-26-2007, 11:30 PM
  #69
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Of course they've improved. They've gone from having Scott Walker and Andreas Johansson as their best players to Steve Sullivan, Paul Kariya and Peter Forsberg as their best players.

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04-27-2007, 08:23 AM
  #70
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Well its not an easy decision, I like Trotzy.. We have improved every year... But we still have the same problems every year too - we always seem to tank in the 2nd half. We never seem to be able to win in must win situations. I don't think he is good at making adjustments when things get taken away. It's more disapointing to me we did not win the division than losing to the Sharks, when all we had to do was win a few home games down the stretch... Then we could have been a higher seed with and an easier opponent, and it could have done wonders for the franchise to make it to the 2nd round.

To use a football analogy, Trotz reminds me of Marty Schottenheimer... Nice guy, not a bad coach, but not a coach that can ever take you deep into the playoffs. I could be wrong though LOL

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04-27-2007, 02:00 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by RollingPredFan View Post
To use a football analogy, Trotz reminds me of Marty Schottenheimer... Nice guy, not a bad coach, but not a coach that can ever take you deep into the playoffs. I could be wrong though LOL
To quote Colin Cowherd from espn radio "at least Schottenheimer's teams make the playoffs."

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04-27-2007, 03:33 PM
  #72
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The way i see it, Trotz should not be going anywhere. He is a good coach that has slowly developed the Preds to respectability in his 9 years (i think). We all know all the Preds playoff runs have been short lived, but you cannot fault him for not having Sullivan, having small defensemen, injury prone Forsberg etc. . In addition, they played the Sharks! I am a Ducks fan and know the Sharks is the team in the west nobody wants to play against. I have seen them play a lot; they are skilled, fast, big etc. .

I think of Tony Dungy with Trotz when he was with Bucs. The main argument why they fired Dungy is becuase the Ownership did not think his teams cannot perform in the playoffs, thats the same with Trotz. (In the end Dungy wins it, i dont see why not Trotz someday down the road) Trotz, most likely will learn from losing in the playofs and become better. The foundation is already set. In all, i really think the Preds have a lot of positive things going for them (not including corporate support), why change it?


Last edited by Tfighter: 04-27-2007 at 03:42 PM.
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