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Flyers goaltending-ranks?

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Old
05-01-2007, 12:46 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tytech View Post
You are alone in your thought process if you don't think you need a legitimately good goalie to win. Look at who is left in the playoffs and tell me which goalie you'd rather have Biron over. Absolutely none, but we don't need a good goalie to win or compete.
Emery has proven to be a slight upgrade to Niittymaki. He lets in the deflating goals, struggles with rebounds, and can't handle the puck worth a damn. The only edge Ray has on Marty is fighting, and I'm not going to pick a goalie based on his fight card. Hasek...is Hasek. He can be counted on to win games, but you can never tell how many. His groin is as reliable as Forsberg's, and he dives as much as Briere. Common sense says that, although Biron's peak isn't near Hasek's, his consistency puts him over the top. So there's two out of the four remaining goalies that Biron could be considered better than, and that's good enough for me.

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Old
05-01-2007, 02:00 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
Emery has proven to be a slight upgrade to Niittymaki. He lets in the deflating goals, struggles with rebounds, and can't handle the puck worth a damn. The only edge Ray has on Marty is fighting, and I'm not going to pick a goalie based on his fight card. Hasek...is Hasek. He can be counted on to win games, but you can never tell how many. His groin is as reliable as Forsberg's, and he dives as much as Briere. Common sense says that, although Biron's peak isn't near Hasek's, his consistency puts him over the top. So there's two out of the four remaining goalies that Biron could be considered better than, and that's good enough for me.

Ok so 6 of the remaing 8 goalies you'd take over Biron for sure. The other two, all the Ottawa and Detroit fans wouldn't trade for Biron. Glad to see that you helped me make my point which was disputing some other posing posters comment about goalies not being important.

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Old
05-01-2007, 02:56 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tytech View Post
You are alone in your thought process if you don't think you need a legitimately good goalie to win. Look at who is left in the playoffs and tell me which goalie you'd rather have Biron over. Absolutely none, but we don't need a good goalie to win or compete.
The Flyers offense and defense are in the bottom five in the league at least and their goaltending was as well with Niittymaki. Now that they have Biron, it is on par with the league average, which is a significant improvement. Now they can focus on fixing the other, many weaknesses.

Good goalies don't fall out of the sky, either, which is why Anaheim will most likely not let Giguere go.

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05-01-2007, 04:14 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by tytech View Post
Ok so 6 of the remaing 8 goalies you'd take over Biron for sure. The other two, all the Ottawa and Detroit fans wouldn't trade for Biron. Glad to see that you helped me make my point which was disputing some other posing posters comment about goalies not being important.
Let's summarize the last few posts, shall we?

Ty: Biron isn't a starter. I want an elite goalie.
CIG.com: Giguere won't be hitting the market. We have other holes that need to be addressed. Biron is an adequate starter.
Ty: You need a starter to win. LOL. Look at the playoffs...who is Biron better than?
RP: Hasek and Emery.
Ty: See! See what I was talking about!
RP: No.

--------------------------------------------

Biron is a starting goaltender, and that's all you need to win as long as the team around him is competent. Luongo needs to play like an all-star because the Cancucks scoring depth starts and ends with the Sedin twins who can't get the job done when they're the focus of attention. You say he isn't, but you don't justify it all. Here's the facts, Biron has three less wins than Niittymaki while playing roughly forty less games. He has had a save percentage over .900 despite playing infront of a shaky defense, and bailed this team out on multiple occasions. As a Sabre, he was counted on to carry the team on multiple occasions but, because he played behind Hasek and Miller, Biron was never given a chance to start. During one of his rare stints as a starter, Biron managed a twelve game winning streak or something absurd to keep the Sabres at the top of their division. Trust me, he's plenty ****ing capable.


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Old
05-01-2007, 04:46 PM
  #30
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You had him already, his name was Robert Esche...very similar styles, especially with that "lock down mode" they had, where they would drop to their knees and no matter where the play went after that, they were not there at all and never going to get there...Biron is better and will continue to be better than Emery, don't worry...
Emery does not have the rebound issues that Rebound Rob has.

He's also younger and quicker.

Not to mention that he can fill the enforcer role on the team too!

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05-01-2007, 05:24 PM
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i wouldnt say biron is better than emery yet, id call ti a wash

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05-01-2007, 06:15 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Emery does not have the rebound issues that Rebound Rob has.

He's also younger and quicker.

Not to mention that he can fill the enforcer role on the team too!
I always thought Robert Esche was terrible, his days in Phoenix, even when he took you guys to the East Finals, I thought he sucked...but don't speak too soon on those rebounds...I wish there was a statistic for it, but it seems like 3 out of 4 shots on Emery have a rebound, the only ones that don't rebound out are gloved awkwardly and smashed down on to the ice, I can't wait for him to throw the puck right to someone awesome to stuff back in his face...

But anyway, Robert Esche and Ray Emery are disturbingly similar, everyone was all over Esche because they got the illusion that he was actually good too...let's see if Emery can improve before he puts a touchdown up in the GAA department...

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Old
05-01-2007, 08:26 PM
  #33
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Biron's solid. I could care less where he ranks. Hopefully he is just a stop plug until the Flyers are finally able to develop an excellent to elite goalie themselves. Has everyone really lost faith in this possibility? People talk a lot about Miller, Ward, Lundqvist. They weren't 1st round picks or elite prospects before they played in the NHL. Someone took the time to properly develop them. Flyers need to do a better job of scouting/cultivating their own goaltending talent, instead of trading for (and usually ruining) talent that someone else developed. I'm praying that Holmgren will find a way to do this.

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05-02-2007, 12:02 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post

Biron is a starting goaltender, and that's all you need to win as long as the team around him is competent. Luongo needs to play like an all-star because the Cancucks scoring depth starts and ends with the Sedin twins who can't get the job done when they're the focus of attention.
Too many people think that a team needs an elite goaltender to win a cup. If the team is competent, and the goalie makes the saves he should, then the team has a chance to win a cup. How many of the previous 10 Cup winners had a goalie that stood on his head? In each of the last Cup teams the goalie has allowed his team to win the Cup by making the necessary saves. None of them won the cup for their team, despite the fact that Cam Ward won a Conn Smythe seemingly because all of the other Canes player that had played great up to the finals didn't get any points in the Finals. Cam Ward made the saves he should have made and a few he shouldn't have. That's all a team needs. Despite most people's notions that Martin Brodeur is the only reason the Devils have ever been any good, he was not the main reason for their Cup wins. He played like he should have, making saves he should. Same goes for Mike Vernon, Chris Osgood, Ed belfour, Dominic Hasek, and Nikolai Khabibulin. The one goalie who did play phenomenol was Giguere, and his team lost because of lack of depth and an inability to prevent high quality shots.

All of that jive just to say if Biron makes the saves he should and the Flyers can get a solid defense and score, then they have a chance at the Cup, unlike having a goalie who gives up crappy goals at inoportune times. Cechmanek played some phenomenal games but then would give up a goal from the blue line with no screen or anything. That is a killer and that's what a team can't afford.

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Old
05-02-2007, 08:41 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
Let's summarize the last few posts, shall we?

Ty: Biron isn't a starter. I want an elite goalie.
CIG.com: Giguere won't be hitting the market. We have other holes that need to be addressed. Biron is an adequate starter.
Ty: You need a starter to win. LOL. Look at the playoffs...who is Biron better than?
RP: Hasek and Emery.
Ty: See! See what I was talking about!
RP: No.

--------------------------------------------

Biron is a starting goaltender, and that's all you need to win as long as the team around him is competent. Luongo needs to play like an all-star because the Cancucks scoring depth starts and ends with the Sedin twins who can't get the job done when they're the focus of attention. You say he isn't, but you don't justify it all. Here's the facts, Biron has three less wins than Niittymaki while playing roughly forty less games. He has had a save percentage over .900 despite playing infront of a shaky defense, and bailed this team out on multiple occasions. As a Sabre, he was counted on to carry the team on multiple occasions but, because he played behind Hasek and Miller, Biron was never given a chance to start. During one of his rare stints as a starter, Biron managed a twelve game winning streak or something absurd to keep the Sabres at the top of their division. Trust me, he's plenty ****ing capable.

Great "summary". Do you take notes for Bush in his absence? No wonder he doesn't ever have full knowledge of a situation.

It wasn't biron who specifically changed htings when he came in. It was getitng rid of Forsberg, getting Upshall and then Carter and Richards etc etc etc all woke up. Our team played a whole lot better.
All I said is that out of 8 goalies left, 6 we would take over Biron. The other two are a toss up. All the Sens fans would take Emery, all the detroit fans (and probably most of the league) would take Hasek. You and the rest of the flyers fans would take Biron. That still, in my opinion, proves what I was saying. 7/8 goalies left are better than Biron. The arguement started when he said you don't need a good goalie to win or compete, but clearly you do.

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05-02-2007, 08:59 AM
  #36
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6 or 7 guys have clearly established themselves as the upper tier of the league, and then you can throw in Hasek, who is still very good but not great. And I think the 4 guys nominated for the Vezina are still above that. (the other three: DiPietero, Nabokov, Giguere) That's a lot of guys to be considered to be on level terms with each other and be THAT good, and that is why guys like that never hit the market.

Everyone else you better have a good team in front of your goalie. Tampa had a good enough team, if we would have had Holmqvist and they had Niittymaki nothing would have changed.

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05-02-2007, 12:20 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
1st Tier: Ryan Miller, Martin Brodeur, Rick DiPietro, Henrik Lundqvist

2nd Tier: Martin Biron, Chrisotbal Huet, Ray Emery, Marc-Andre Fleury, Kari Lehtonen, Cam Ward, Olaf Kölzig

3rd Tier: Tim Thomas, Martin Gerber, Andrew Raycroft, Ed Belfour, Alex Auld, Adam Denis, Johan Holmqvist
I pretty much agree with this. I would put Dipi in the second tier, and would rank Biron at the end of that tier. The only person in that tier I see him better than is Ward, who hasnt shown any consistancy, even when he won his cup.

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05-02-2007, 01:02 PM
  #38
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I pretty much agree with this. I would put Dipi in the second tier, and would rank Biron at the end of that tier. The only person in that tier I see him better than is Ward, who hasnt shown any consistancy, even when he won his cup.

What has Biron done better than any of these guys?

Tim Thomas, Martin Gerber, Andrew Raycroft, Ed Belfour, Alex Auld, Adam Denis, Johan Holmqvist

That's right, played 16 games with Philly last year and signed a two year deal. That's about the extent of it.

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05-02-2007, 01:09 PM
  #39
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Adam Denis? Isn't that like the 4th goalie for Buffalo?

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05-02-2007, 01:34 PM
  #40
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What has Biron done better than any of these guys?

Tim Thomas, Martin Gerber, Andrew Raycroft, Ed Belfour, Alex Auld, Adam Denis, Johan Holmqvist

That's right, played 16 games with Philly last year and signed a two year deal. That's about the extent of it.
played pretty well in Buffalo before then, too. his career didn't start when he arrived here.

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05-02-2007, 01:55 PM
  #41
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Adam Denis? Isn't that like the 4th goalie for Buffalo?
Yes, he is. But I mixed him up with Tampa Bays Marc Denis.... Just the wrong forename.

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05-02-2007, 02:54 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tytech View Post
Great "summary". Do you take notes for Bush in his absence? No wonder he doesn't ever have full knowledge of a situation.
Everyone knows Bush doesn't take notes, dousche.
Quote:
What has Biron done better than any of these guys?
Tim Thomas
Tim Thomas is a thirty three year old goaltender who was thrust into the position of starter when Raycroft was dealt and Toivonen faltered. Biron is four years young, played 208 more games than Thomas, and has 95 more wins. The Bruins finished third from last in the Eastern Conference this year. Biron is easily better than him.

Martin Gerber
A 32 year old goaltender who played one year as a starter for the eventual Stanley Cup champions. Sounds like a great story, but the reality was that Gerber was a guy who had a hot streak, playing behind a great team. He cashed in for it big time, and lost his role as starter to an inconsistent goalie with a ****ed up wrist. He now averages ~5 games played per month.

Andrew Raycroft
A good young starting goaltender. Biron is on par with Raycroft in terms of ability and consistency.

Ed Belfour
Belfour is a good goalie, but that's where the compliments end. He's fortty-two years old with a history of back and groin problems. If he's your starter, your team isn't going very far because he will go down with an injury sooner or later. Did I mention he's also been arrested twice for resisting arrest, and disorderly conduct? We shouldn't blame Eddie, though. It was probably just the booze talking.

Alex Auld
He's kind of like Antero Niittymaki in the sense that he's a young goalie who was counted on to do too much. Auld is a great back-up, but not a starter. This was proven when he lost the job of starter to a 42 year old drunkard. After that, Auld had a severe knee injury that could only be fixed with a surgery, forcing him to call it a season. One should be very wary of every having Auld as a starter because these types of injuries can have lingering effects.

Marc Denis
Are you actually bringing Marc Denis into this, the goalie Tortorella absolutely shredded in the press for not being able to hold the fort? The guy played one game in April and was shelved for a back-up with absolutely no playoff experience. Just to add insult to injury, Tampa didn't win a single game the entire year while only scoring two goals or less...he had a very large something to do with it.

Johan Holmqvist
He played pretty well for the Tampa Bay Lightning, but couldn't make the big saves when his team needed them most. Lightning fans are still looking for some one who can definitively be their goalie. I'd also like to add that Tampa's winless streak when scoring two goals or less carried over to the playoffs and in all likelihood next year as well.
Quote:
That's right, played 16 games with Philly last year and signed a two year deal. That's about the extent of it.
In Birons' seven year career, he's had 140 wins, seven seasons with a .900 save percentage or better, 18 shutouts, played 50+ games on three seperate occasions, 70+ games on one occasion, and had 30+ wins on one occasion. The only two goalies you've listed who can say they've accomplished such are Raycroft and Belfour, and Belfour's days have passed him by. Since you seem like the type who needs visual aid, though, I've collected a few highlights off the Flyers website.

March 1st
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2421.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2424.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2426.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2427.wmv

March 6th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70306/2436.wmv

March 12th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70312/2448.wmv

March 15th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70315/2455.wmv

March 20th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70320/2466.wmv

March 24th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70324/2475.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70324/2479.wmv

March 28th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70328/2484.wmv

March 30th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70330/2496.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70330/2498.wmv

April 3rd
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70403/2510.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70403/2513.wmv

April 8th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70408/2530.wmv

I'll say it again. Biron is an adequate goalie.

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Old
05-02-2007, 03:19 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
Everyone knows Bush doesn't take notes, dousche.Tim Thomas
Tim Thomas is a thirty three year old goaltender who was thrust into the position of starter when Raycroft was dealt and Toivonen faltered. Biron is four years young, played 208 more games than Thomas, and has 95 more wins. The Bruins finished third from last in the Eastern Conference this year. Biron is easily better than him.

Martin Gerber
A 32 year old goaltender who played one year as a starter for the eventual Stanley Cup champions. Sounds like a great story, but the reality was that Gerber was a guy who had a hot streak, playing behind a great team. He cashed in for it big time, and lost his role as starter to an inconsistent goalie with a ****ed up wrist. He now averages ~5 games played per month.

Andrew Raycroft
A good young starting goaltender. Biron is on par with Raycroft in terms of ability and consistency.

Ed Belfour
Belfour is a good goalie, but that's where the compliments end. He's fortty-two years old with a history of back and groin problems. If he's your starter, your team isn't going very far because he will go down with an injury sooner or later. Did I mention he's also been arrested twice for resisting arrest, and disorderly conduct? We shouldn't blame Eddie, though. It was probably just the booze talking.

Alex Auld
He's kind of like Antero Niittymaki in the sense that he's a young goalie who was counted on to do too much. Auld is a great back-up, but not a starter. This was proven when he lost the job of starter to a 42 year old drunkard. After that, Auld had a severe knee injury that could only be fixed with a surgery, forcing him to call it a season. One should be very wary of every having Auld as a starter because these types of injuries can have lingering effects.

Marc Denis
Are you actually bringing Marc Denis into this, the goalie Tortorella absolutely shredded in the press for not being able to hold the fort? The guy played one game in April and was shelved for a back-up with absolutely no playoff experience. Just to add insult to injury, Tampa didn't win a single game the entire year while only scoring two goals or less...he had a very large something to do with it.

Johan Holmqvist
He played pretty well for the Tampa Bay Lightning, but couldn't make the big saves when his team needed them most. Lightning fans are still looking for some one who can definitively be their goalie. I'd also like to add that Tampa's winless streak when scoring two goals or less carried over to the playoffs and in all likelihood next year as well.In Birons' seven year career, he's had 140 wins, seven seasons with a .900 save percentage or better, 18 shutouts, played 50+ games on three seperate occasions, 70+ games on one occasion, and had 30+ wins on one occasion. The only two goalies you've listed who can say they've accomplished such are Raycroft and Belfour, and Belfour's days have passed him by. Since you seem like the type who needs visual aid, though, I've collected a few highlights off the Flyers website.

March 1st
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2421.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2424.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2426.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70301/2427.wmv

March 6th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70306/2436.wmv

March 12th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70312/2448.wmv

March 15th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70315/2455.wmv

March 20th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70320/2466.wmv

March 24th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70324/2475.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70324/2479.wmv

March 28th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70328/2484.wmv

March 30th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70330/2496.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70330/2498.wmv

April 3rd
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70403/2510.wmv
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70403/2513.wmv

April 8th
http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/si...70408/2530.wmv

I'll say it again. Biron is an adequate goalie.
Crazy post. You must work for the government with all this free time. I'm not sure who even started this arguement with me but all I've defended is someone who said that you don't need a good goalie to compete. I then borught up the 8 goalies that are left. Simple as that.

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05-07-2007, 10:22 PM
  #44
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[QUOTE=tytech;9126146]Cam Ward stood on his head and won a cup.quote]

And has been very average before and after the Cup run. He wasn't even the starter the whole playoffs. He is very overrated.

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Emery won a starting job when Biron couldn't,
Biron would have won the job over Gerber and Emery would not have won the job over Miller. Bad example.

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