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What would you do at the draft?

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Old
05-18-2007, 02:37 PM
  #26
EL Bandito
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Wow, this has turned into quite a trade discussion thread. Going back to talking about the draft, who are your "favorites" that you'd like the blues to draft this year?

Mine are:
Lars Eller
Bill Sweatt
Nick Petrecki
Simon Hjalmarsson
Max Pacioretty (I think he'll go somewhere between our 9th/24th picks)
Logan MacMillan
Patrick White
Colby Cohen
Logan Couture

And on a lesser level:
Keaton Ellerby
Oscar Moller
Tommy Cross
David Perron
Mikael Backlund
Brett Maclean
John Negrin
Ian Cole
Vladimir Ruzicka (if he can get his head together he could be special)
Luca Cunti
James O'Brien
Jens Hellgren

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05-19-2007, 07:42 AM
  #27
kimzey59
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My expectations:

1) I do NOT expect the Blues to go into the draft with 3 first round picks. I expect the Blues to make a trade involving one of our D men(Backman) and a 1st round pick(NOT ours) before the draft to acquire a legit 20 goal scorer up front. It also wouldn't surprise me if we "force" that team to accept a grinder(Hinote) as part of the deal(for reasons I'll explain later).

I'm not going to name any names for who we might target, but I expect it to be a High profile player(IMO it'll be an "out of the blue" type trade like Demitra's in last years draft).

One note; we WILL NOT deal off any prospects currently in the system. JD can play off dealing away a draft pick for a player("surplus picks" and all that) but dealing a prospect goes against his "no trading youth" mantra.


2) I expect a seperate trade to be made involving JUST Draft picks(either our extra 3rd or extra 4th rounder) to move up with the lower 1st round pick.

3) I FULLY expect Lars Eller to be a member of the Blues system after the draft. The kid is simply THE definition of a "Jarmo pick".

I also wouldn't be surprised if we pick defenseman Ryan McDonaugh with our other 1st round pick.

4) Expanding this to encompass the off-season:
In addition to trading for a top line scorer, I think Pleau and JD will try to sign one more "scoring" forward as a FA(and I have a VERY strong feeling that we'll trade for a winger and make Handzus(who is EXACTLY what AM wants in a center) our FA pickup). I think AM would LIKE to go into the season with Jammer, RJ and Drake(hence the "forcing the team to take Hinote as part of the deal" comment above) as his 4th line(those 3 played together a LOT going down the stretch) and have skill players on the rest of his lines(a more traditional lineup as opposed to the "1 1/2 scoring-2 1/2 checking" philosophy that Quenneville/Kitchen used).

5) I doubt that we'll trade a goalie. Neither of our "available" goalies will get enough in return to make it worthwhile. Instead, I think we'll just not offer Sanford a contract.

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05-19-2007, 07:59 AM
  #28
PerryTurnbullfan
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I have always liked Handzus and would love to have him back. I would expect a top six forward for Backman alone a legit top four. I would expect a 20 goal scorer for a first round pick or I wouldn't trade the pick. For Backman and a 1st round pick, I would expect a legit young 30 to 35 goal guy, otherwise I wouldn't make the deal. You're getting shafted for only a twenty goal scorer.

I don't expect Drake to make the team and retire to be a coach. I think he's done. Just my opinion.

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05-19-2007, 08:51 AM
  #29
PocketNines
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Yeah, apparently a "2/3" Dman plus a first round pick can bring back a 20-goal scorer. I find that inconsistent with our previous dispute over the value of Backman. If kimzey truly believes Backman is a 2/3, then by himself he should return at least a 20-goal scorer.

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05-19-2007, 09:53 AM
  #30
kimzey59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Yeah, apparently a "2/3" Dman plus a first round pick can bring back a 20-goal scorer. I find that inconsistent with our previous dispute over the value of Backman. If kimzey truly believes Backman is a 2/3, then by himself he should return at least a 20-goal scorer.
1) And you base this on what?

Only 2 D men brought back a 20 goal forward in trade last year; the Noah Welch(one of the leagues top D prospects)/Gary Roberts deal and the Brandon Bell(a #4 D man who was packaged with a 2nd round pick)/Yannic Perreault deal.

The only other deal that was even CLOSE to this blueprint was the Niinimaa/Ribiero trade(and both players had HUGE question marks attached to them at the time).

Based on last years established market value; a #2/3 D man is NOT worth a legit 20 goal scorer. Ergo; in order to GET a legit 20 goal forward we'll have to add something with significant value to the deal(such as one of our 1st round picks).

2) That said; by "legit 20 goal scorer" I MEAN somebody who will(not "can", WILL) net 20 goals and will also contribute 30-40 assists. I'm talking about a 50-70 point winger with that statement; not a 20 goal/40 point player like Jeff O'Neill, Dan Cleary or Fredrik Modin. We MIGHT, be able to get somebody like Ryder, Cammalleri, Horton, Naslund or Langkow with that package(I doubt it but GM do dumb things all the time); but I'd settle for somebody like Brendan Morrison, Matt Lombardi, Ales Kotalik, Cory Stillman or Stephan Weiss.

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05-19-2007, 10:06 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) And you base this on what?

Only 2 D men brought back a 20 goal forward in trade last year; the Noah Welch(one of the leagues top D prospects)/Gary Roberts deal and the Brandon Bell(a #4 D man who was packaged with a 2nd round pick)/Yannic Perreault deal.

The only other deal that was even CLOSE to this blueprint was the Niinimaa/Ribiero trade(and both players had HUGE question marks attached to them at the time).

Based on last years established market value; a #2/3 D man is NOT worth a legit 20 goal scorer. Ergo; in order to GET a legit 20 goal forward we'll have to add something with significant value to the deal(such as one of our 1st round picks).

2) That said; by "legit 20 goal scorer" I MEAN somebody who will(not "can", WILL) net 20 goals and will also contribute 30-40 assists. I'm talking about a 50-70 point winger with that statement; not a 20 goal/40 point player like Jeff O'Neill, Dan Cleary or Fredrik Modin. We MIGHT, be able to get somebody like Ryder, Cammalleri, Horton, Naslund or Langkow with that package(I doubt it but GM do dumb things all the time); but I'd settle for somebody like Brendan Morrison, Matt Lombardi, Ales Kotalik, Cory Stillman or Stephan Weiss.
I remember a certain #5 D-man bringing back a proven 20-goal, 40-assist guy at the trade deadline next year. Afterall, if that train-wreck of a D-man known as Dennis Wideman can bring back a top-6 forward.....I'd expect even more in return for #55. Granted, Boyes only put up 17 goals last season, but I know you've referenced him as a top-6 guy in the past, right?

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05-19-2007, 10:36 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jackmans Domain View Post
I remember a certain #5 D-man bringing back a proven 20-goal, 40-assist guy at the trade deadline next year. Afterall, if that train-wreck of a D-man known as Dennis Wideman can bring back a top-6 forward.....I'd expect even more in return for #55. Granted, Boyes only put up 17 goals last season, but I know you've referenced him as a top-6 guy in the past, right?

1) As you noted; Boyes did not have 20 goals last year. He only had 13 when we got him and had been relegated to Boston's 4th line. That was a VERY special situation, and not one I think we can duplicate this summer(though I certainly wouldn't mind doing so).

2) Yes, Backman SHOULD bring back more in a trade; but how MUCH more? Again, look at the trade market for last year. A D man like Backman SHOULD bring back a player like Ribiero, Calder or Belanger on his own. Frankly, it's not even worth trading him if that's all we'd be getting.

Since that is the market value; we'd need to add something to get a legit Top LINE forward. One of our spare 1st rounder pick is the most obvious chip for us to add to that package.

3) Let's also not overlook that I am forcing a roster dump(Hinote) in the trade as well. That lowers the value of the other chips in the package.

4) Boyes SHOULD get back to his rookie form next year considering who he'll be playing with(Weight). That said, he'll likely only be a 2nd line player for us. The kind of player I'm suggesting we go after with that Backman/1st/Hinote package would be a legit top-line forward to line-up next to Stempniak. I am hesitant to call this kind of player a "30 goal scorer" because 30 goal players are extremely limited and can easily slide into the 20 goal range if they don't have a proper set-up man. Perhaps a better description would be a 25 goal/PPG winger?

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05-19-2007, 10:48 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) And you base this on what?

Only 2 D men brought back a 20 goal forward in trade last year; the Noah Welch(one of the leagues top D prospects)/Gary Roberts deal and the Brandon Bell(a #4 D man who was packaged with a 2nd round pick)/Yannic Perreault deal.

The only other deal that was even CLOSE to this blueprint was the Niinimaa/Ribiero trade(and both players had HUGE question marks attached to them at the time).

I disagree w/ you here. I think you are looking at the deadline when prospects (Bell and Welch) were moved for a short term fix. I would take Backman any day over either player, niether of which projects to be better then 2nd pairing (at best) in the NHL. The fact that Welch couldn't make the Pens squad says a lot to me (there may be cap stuff there, but...if you are trying to win, then you go w/ the best available).

I think it will be intersting to see what happens at the draft and I am looking forward to it.

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05-19-2007, 11:33 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
I have always liked Handzus and would love to have him back. I would expect a top six forward for Backman alone a legit top four. I would expect a 20 goal scorer for a first round pick or I wouldn't trade the pick. For Backman and a 1st round pick, I would expect a legit young 30 to 35 goal guy, otherwise I wouldn't make the deal. You're getting shafted for only a twenty goal scorer.

I don't expect Drake to make the team and retire to be a coach. I think he's done. Just my opinion.
I agree here. I think JD knows The Blues need to get a proven, trustworthy, Impact forward. So Bäckman or Salvy AND one of the later 1st rounders (and possibly Bacashiua IF the trading partner also needs a backup goalie) will all go in a trade for a VERY GOOD Quality young forward (almost guaranteed 30-35 goal scorer (in any scenario). The better of the 2 top 6 forwards will likely be obtained in the trade, as The Blues won't want to pay out $6-7 million a year for several years to the UFA. The UFA will be a 2nd-tier forward (weak line 1 or line 2 forward at no more than $4 million per year. Despite losing the NHL defenceman's salary, more current Blues' salary will need to be dumped (e.g. more trades will need to be made).

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Old
05-20-2007, 01:37 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1)

2) That said; by "legit 20 goal scorer" I MEAN somebody who will(not "can", WILL) net 20 goals and will also contribute 30-40 assists. I'm talking about a 50-70 point winger with that statement; not a 20 goal/40 point player like Jeff O'Neill, Dan Cleary or Fredrik Modin. We MIGHT, be able to get somebody like Ryder, Cammalleri, Horton, Naslund or Langkow with that package(I doubt it but GM do dumb things all the time); but I'd settle for somebody like Brendan Morrison, Matt Lombardi, Ales Kotalik, Cory Stillman or Stephan Weiss.

Who do you see as a "true" trading partner looking for a Backman type defenseman and a pick? I see Pittsburgh looking to upgrade their defensive situation. Perhaps a package of 3 players containing (pick three) Christiansen, Ouellet, Talbot, Stone and Filewich. All have the potential to fill a 2nd line or a 3rd scoring line. Another direction may be perhaps Backman and a 1st round pick for Staal?

I wouldn't settle for what you would. Cory Stillman? We're trying to build a winner. We are not there yet or even close (to build a long term contender). We want someone that will be on the team two to five years from now. I wouldn't trade future unless I received someone with one in return.

Who do you see as a legit trade partner looking for a top three defenseman?

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05-20-2007, 04:20 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
Who do you see as a "true" trading partner looking for a Backman type defenseman and a pick?
The issue isn't who is looking for a D man like Backman(every team in the league WANTS another top 4 D man), it's who needs a D man and has something that WE want to give back.

My list:
Anaheim-lsoing O'Donnell; could trade Penner or Kunitz.
Pittsburgh- needs defense; could trade Ryan Malone, Colby Armstrong or one of the kids you mentioned.
Calgary- losing Stuart and Hamrlik as FA's; could deal Lombardi or Langkow.
Montreal- losing Markov, Souray and Niinimaa as FA's; could trade Kovalev, Ryder or Plekanec.(I have a very strange feeling that we may see a Backman/Kovalev deal this summer)
San Jose- losing Hannan and Rivet as FA's; could trade Marleau, Bell or Pavelski.
Columbus- already needed D men and are losing Berard as a FA; could deal Zherdev.
Edomton- needs 2 top 4 D men; could deal Stoll, Horcoff, Lupul or Torres.
LA-losing Miller and Modry; could deal Cammaleri.
Nashville- Losing Timonen and Vishnovsky as FA's; could deal Legwand, Dumont or Erat.
NYR- needs to upgrade Defense; could trade Prucha.

OMG, I forgot the most intriguing possiblity I see out there!
Add: Carolina- losing Hedican and Wesley to retirement and Tanabe to FA(although that could be viewed as an upgrade); could dangle Erik Cole or Cory Stillman.


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Another direction may be perhaps Backman and a 1st round pick for Staal?
The Pen's will NOT deal Staal. Any of their other forwards can probably be had, but Crosby, Malkin and Staal are off-limits.

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We're trying to build a winner. We are not there yet or even close (to build a long term contender).
I do NOT agree with this statement. IMO this team is exactly 1 player away from competing for a 5/6 PO berth and only 2 players away from being a Pres. Trophy/Stanley Cup contender. Now, admittedly those two players need be scoring line caliber; but I truely believe that we have the Defense, goaltending and "supplemental" group(Stempy, Boyes, Backes, Weight, Rucisnky, Cajanek, McClement) already in place for a legit Cup run as early as next year.


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We want someone that will be on the team two to five years from now. I wouldn't trade future unless I received someone with one in return.
And WHY do we want this? In 2-5 years we'll be trying to make room for Oshie, Berglund, Kana, Birner, Soderberg and this years picks(at least 2 of which I expect to be legit top 2 liners). With Stempy, Boyes, Backes and McClement already holding spots on the top 3 lines; that doesn't leave too many spots for other players. IMO what this team needs to be looking for this summer is players to hold spots until those kids are ready. I don't care about age at this point(younger is usually better due to the increased leg speed assotiated with youth, but that isn't always the defining factor in a players ability), I'm more concerned with ability.


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05-20-2007, 07:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post

I do NOT agree with this statement. IMO this team is exactly 1 player away from competing for a 5/6 PO berth and only 2 players away from being a Pres. Trophy/Stanley Cup contender. Now, admittedly those two players need be scoring line caliber; but I truely believe that we have the Defense, goaltending and "supplemental" group(Stempy, Boyes, Backes, Weight, Rucisnky, Cajanek, McClement) already in place for a legit Cup run as early as next year.
Here we go again. I'll agree to disagree with you. I only see three names on that list that I would consider top six players (anymore). Adding one player to this group will not put us in the playoffs. Two will make you border line playoff contender. Three legit top six players will put you in the hunt. You only have 2 twenty goal scorers on that list and a hopeful. 3 centers that are third or 4th line players and a spare part third line winger. You need to come up with about 70-80 goals, if you think we can be a contender. Two Guerin and Tkachuk type scorers do not make us Stanley cup contenders. Throw in a #1 center and I think you might have something. (until we expect them to produce in the playoffs) Let's not go there again. I think you're just one player short. Keep in mind, we can't score.

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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
And WHY do we want this? In 2-5 years we'll be trying to make room for Oshie, Berglund, Kana, Birner, Soderberg and this years picks(at least 2 of which I expect to be legit top 2 liners). With Stempy, Boyes, Backes and McClement already holding spots on the top 3 lines; that doesn't leave too many spots for other players. IMO what this team needs to be looking for this summer is players to hold spots until those kids are ready. I don't care about age at this point(younger is usually better due to the increased leg speed assotiated with youth, but that isn't always the defining factor in a players ability), I'm more concerned with ability.
Of those five, how many will realistically pan out? Have you read the Denny Felsner story? If three of them pan out or come over for that matter, then we did good. From experience, we know one of them may well end up being the next Peter Sejna. For a young legit top four defenseman and a first round pick, I expect a young legit top six forward (25-35 goals 30 to 40 helpers) or two potential top six forwards or Backman is not part of the deal. If I'm getting Stillman, then I'm trading Salvy and a 1st.

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05-20-2007, 08:32 PM
  #38
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I only see three names on that list that I would consider top six players (anymore). Adding one player to this group will not put us in the playoffs. Two will make you border line playoff contender. Three legit top six players will put you in the hunt. You only have 2 twenty goal scorers on that list and a hopeful. 3 centers that are third or 4th line players and a spare part third line winger. You need to come up with about 70-80 goals, if you think we can be a contender. Two Guerin and Tkachuk type scorers do not make us Stanley cup contenders. Throw in a #1 center and I think you might have something. (until we expect them to produce in the playoffs) Let's not go there again. I think you're just one player short.
1) I've already broken down this teams projections under Murray a hundred times. The ONLY player we need to replace to get back to that 106 point level is Guerin(35 goals).

I've also broken down how our team currently stands scoring wise. Right now we are a 180-200 goal team. Whatever FA's we add will increase that number with my TARGET for offensive production being the 240 mark.

2) With our defense we do NOT need to come up with 70-80 goals. This team does not NEED a Buffalo/Ottawa/Nashville caliber(270-300 goals) offense to be a winning team. Even a middle-teir offense(220-240 goals) will put this team solidly on the winning side in the standings.

Furthermore, this team is GEARED towards the PO's. Our defensive mind-set and approach will carry this team a LOT further in the PO's than any scorers up front will.

3A) You say there's only "two 20 goal scorers" on that list; but that statement isn't exactly accurate. Both of those "20 goal scorers" have the ability to put in 25 goals. It's a red herring to say that this team only has "two 20 goal scorers" when the truth is that this team has "two potential 30 goal scorers".
B) You're also ignoring the fact that Rucinsky consistently produces at a 20 goal/60 point clip. He doesn't get to that mark due to injury but he has the IMPACT of a 20 goal forward, and that IS an important thing to note.
C) You are completely ignoring the scoring paces of Weight and Cajanek under Murray. Weight was on pace for 23 goals and 66 points under Murray(by far his best scoring pace as a Blue) and Cajanek was on pace for 28 goals and 56 points after being put on the wing. At the VERY least these two have to be put in the "maybe" category with Backes.


Quote:
Of those five, how many will realistically pan out? ... If three of them pan out or come over for that matter, then we did good. From experience, we know one of them may well end up being the next Peter Sejna.
1) I count 7(Berglund, Oshie, Soderberg, Kana, Birner, + 2 from this years draft), not 5.

2) Birner, Kana and Oshie will at least make the NHL as 3rd liners. They are too high-energy NOT to do so.

So of Berglund, Soderberg and the 2 we pick up in this years draft who do you think WON'T make the NHL in SOME capacity?

3) Let's go with your pessimistic view and say only 3 of them make the NHL: combine that with McClement, Boyes, Stempniak and Backes(already established NHL'ers) and you have a grand total of TWO(2) empty slots on the top 3 lines. DO you really want to fill BOTH of those slots this summer, or would you rather grab a 1 or 2 year player for this year and get somebody better than this years crop of FA next summer(such as Marleau, Heatley, Hossa or Iginla)?

You keep talking about the future; but your logic doesn't extend more than 4 months in advance. I'm trying to take a MUCH longer veiw on the Blues situation.


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For a young legit top four defenseman and a first round pick, I expect a young legit top six forward (25-35 goals 30 to 40 helpers) or two potential top six forwards or Backman is not part of the deal. If I'm getting Stillman, then I'm trading Salvy and a 1st.
1) I understand where you're coming from in you assesment; but you're under-rating Stillman. The guy is a LOCK for 20-25 goals when healthy. That kind of consistency is very hard to come by.

2) The CLOSEST trade to the one you're talking about would be the Tanguay deal at last years draft; and it took Jordan Leopold and two(2) 2nd round picks(one last year and one this year) to get him.

Things to note about this deal:
A) Leopold is a slightly better D man than Backman.
b) Tanguay has NEVER scored 30 goals in a season. He's only hit the 29 mark ONCE. Tanguay is typically a 25 goal/70 point player; and that is EXACTLY the type of forward I'm suggesting we go after(get over your fixation on the "20 goal" label; I only use that number because 30 goal players are EXTREMELY rare). I suggest you look at the ACTUAL production of the players I'm suggesting we target instead of looking at their perceived value. I think you'll be surprised.
C) A 2nd round pick last year was nearly as valueable as a 1st round pick this year. Even my initial package of Backman, a 1st and Hinote probably wouldn't be enough to get a forward of this caliber.


All that being said; we're not really in disagreement on what type of player this package should return, I am just very reluctant to give players that "30 goal" label. A LOT of things have to happen for players to hit that mark(health(both theirs and their linemates), finding a set-up man whom they have chemistry with, playing time(especially on the PP), consistency, etc...) and I don't think it's fair to expect any player coming from another team to just step in a produce 30 goals. Instead, I'm asking for a player who will AT LEAST hit the 20 mark but has the upside to do more.

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05-20-2007, 09:57 PM
  #39
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I have to agree with Turnbullfan on more than 1 account. I would not trade a young defenseman that has not yet reached his potential, but still could, if he gets his head out of his backside. The problem I see with all of these ideas and dreams are the facts. The Blues had the 29th ranked pp. They were ranked #26 in goals for. The "fan" is right, we can't score. As far as the Blues being defensively geared, I sincerely hope that was a joke. True enough, they were much better under Murray, but they still ended up 20th in goals against and 25th on the pk. Murray or no Murray you have to have the talent, and unless the Blues figure out how to get the puck out of thier own end and on the stick of someone who can actually do something with it other than bat it back and forth in the corner they ain't goin nowhere. We have very little available talent in Peoria if someone gets hurt. Whitfield,
Glumac, DiSalvatore...yikes. I sure hope the Blues can convince some of the kids from Europe to come over, otherwise we're in deep. With guys like RJ and Jammer and the like here to be checkers and penalty killers and stastically not getting the job done{ see above} We better hope damn near all of these kids pan out or it'll be 5 years before we're in the playoff hunt, not the Cup hunt. I would love to see a deal with Pittsburgh of Salvador, yes that kick again, and 1 of our lower first round picks for Stone, Kennedy and Filewich. Right now the Blues need the potential to get better, these younger guys have that potential, Rj is not going to get better, Whitfield isn't going to become a 20 goal guy, neither is Jammer, nor is Salvador going to become a PP point man. Guys like these have been the status quo too long. They do the jobs they do well, except pk,
but the Blues are asking more than they can do. We need a talent influx now to help these young guys coming up know how to play the game right. After Murray came in the forwards were introduced to Legace and the end of the ice he plays on and we got better. I still believe if the Blues added a couple of solid wingers and a PP point man they are not only in the playoffs, but immediately dangerous, and if a decent percentage of these kids do pan out, we are dangerous for years. I hope the Blues draft Couture with the first of thier picks, with the other 2 picks in the first, I would like to see a defenseman with one and hopefully Dana Tyrell with the other. We have 2 second rounders as well I believe and I hope in either the 2nd or 3rd they go after Mitchell out of the OHL. A few d-men who could be available late in the first are Plante, Cole, Hickey or Cross any of them would be ok with me.

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05-20-2007, 10:10 PM
  #40
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Kimzey, I agree 100% with your assessment of how close the Blues are to competing...these "3-5 year" guys need to understand that this is 2007, not 1997...I also hope your draft predictions come true, and I am hoping you have some sources that are leading you to these predictions..

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05-21-2007, 08:10 AM
  #41
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I wish to apologize for going a little overboard on my last post on this thread. I get a little frustrated when it comes to certain aspects of the Blues. Our D is our strong point, goaltending seems to be another strength. I should say the potential at both of these positions is a strength. In order to acquire some offensive help, and we do need it, we will have to deal from strength, I made a statement in another thread concerning our Euro prospects, the fear they won't come over, or become too cost prohibitive [ transfer agreement ] to bring over is a very real one. The college game is very different from the pro game and for some players the transition never happens, e.g. Felsner, Sejna. That history makes me wary of the college guys coming in. I really wish Oshie had come out this year. I think a year at Peoria would have really helped him prepare and helped the Blues prepare for what he will bring to the table. Will he be a scorer? Will he be a checker?

I expounded on Turnbullfan's idea of a deal with Pittsburgh, I still like it. What do you guys think? Here's a few more from my twisted pan:

To Edmonton: Backman, our #9 pick, our #26 pick and Barriball
To St. Louis: Lupul, Stoll and the #5 pick

To one of the top 5 in this draft in need of a goaltender: Schwarz and 3rd rounder

These are just the ramblings of sick mind, but lets see some other ideas. What do you guys think we need? Who would you move and who would you move them for? Lets play nice and post our ideas without going off on each other.

I just want to see the Blues get to the grail, 40plus years is long enough. I don't care about 25 straight years in the playoffs, that equals 25 straight years of being a loser. It doesn't matter if you lose 1-0 or 50-0, you still lost. Whether you're 2nd or 30th you didn't win, you suck, and that my friends is reality. I don't want another 25 year dynasty of ineptitude. I want to be in Scott Trade passing my homemade aluminum foil Stanley Cup to you guys who like me have been waiting too long for a decent shot at it. I think the pieces to build a winner are there, but not all of them are in our organization right now.

Fire away!!!!

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05-21-2007, 08:26 AM
  #42
lee17
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Another idea

Instead of this weird transfer agreement, why can't they come up with a trade kind of frame work. Heres an example, lets say the Blues have a prospect, we'll use Kana
that they want to see if he's got true potential. He needs some time to adjust to the north american game and the Blues need to see what they may have in this guy. The Blues have another prospect who has played here in north america his whole life, lets use Fitzgerald, who plays the NA pro style, in Fitz's case maybe overly so in some aspects, who needs to work on his skating and other finer points. Why couln't they work out a deal of some sorts to help both players, help both teams, and ease the financial contraints for the NHL teams. Who knows maybe to put a few more NA players in the European markets might help them financially too.

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05-21-2007, 08:59 AM
  #43
kimzey59
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Originally Posted by lee17 View Post
The problem I see with all of these ideas and dreams are the facts.
ALL of the stats I have brought to the table are facts as well.
There was a night and day difference between the Blues under Kitchen and the Blues under Murray. You have to be completely blind to ignore the difference in play between those two coaches.

Quote:
They were ranked #26 in goals for. The "fan" is right, we can't score. As far as the Blues being defensively geared, I sincerely hope that was a joke. True enough, they were much better under Murray, but they still ended up 20th in goals against and 25th on the pk.
Since you insist, I'll again bring back the projections under Murray(seriously, IB should sticky this so that I don't have to go digging it up all the time)


Under Kitchen
Record: 7-17-4
GF: 62
GA: 99

Seasonal Projections:
Record: 20-50-12 (52 points)
GF: 182 (would have ranked 30th in the league)
GA: 290 (would have ranked 29th in the league and last in the West)


Under Murray

Overall total
Record: 27-18-9
GF: 152
GA: 155

Seasonal Projections:
Record: 41-28-13(105 pts)
GF: 231 (would have ranked 20th in the league and 8th in the West)
GA: 235 (would have ranked 12th in the league and 9th in the West)

Pre Trade Deadline
Record: 20-10-5
GF: 103
GA: 94

Seasonal Projection

Record: 47-23-12(106 points)
GF: 241 (would have ranked 17th in the league and 7th in the West)
GA: 220 (would have ranked 10th in the league 8th in the West)

As I have said elsewhere;
Boyes SHOULD match Tkachuk's production from this year which means we only need to replace Guerin(which admittedly could be a bit tricky) to get back to that level, and that offense isn't NEARLY as bad as people are making it out to be.


Quote:
I would love to see a deal with Pittsburgh of Salvador, yes that kick again, and 1 of our lower first round picks for Stone, Kennedy and Filewich
1) Why would Pittsburgh make this trade?

2) How does that package help the Blues next year? This team doesn't need "depth" for Peoria, we've already got plenty of players there that can adequately fill in for injuries(Whitfield, Glumac, Disalvatore, Stastny, Birner, and possibly Drazenovic and one or two other prospects(Soderberg, Linglet, any of our Euro prospects that get signed) by the end of the year); we NEED impact forwards on the NHL roster. This team has NO INTENTION of "sucking it up" for another year. They intend to be back in the PO's next season and will do what it takes to get there. They are not going to trade any of their chips away for a package of prospects or picks like you're suggesting.

If we make a trade with a D man it will be for somebody who can be a legit top 2 line player right away. In order to get a player of that caliber we'll have to GIVE a player with high trade value. That excludes Salvador from the list of canadates.

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05-21-2007, 12:07 PM
  #44
vatali
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So I want to look at this list again:

My list:
Anaheim-lsoing O'Donnell; could trade Penner or Kunitz.
Pittsburgh- needs defense; could trade Ryan Malone, Colby Armstrong or one of the kids you mentioned.
Calgary- losing Stuart and Hamrlik as FA's; could deal Lombardi or Langkow.
Montreal- losing Markov, Souray and Niinimaa as FA's; could trade Kovalev, Ryder or Plekanec.(I have a very strange feeling that we may see a Backman/Kovalev deal this summer)
San Jose- losing Hannan and Rivet as FA's; could trade Marleau, Bell or Pavelski.
Columbus- already needed D men and are losing Berard as a FA; could deal Zherdev.
Edomton- needs 2 top 4 D men; could deal Stoll, Horcoff, Lupul or Torres.
LA-losing Miller and Modry; could deal Cammaleri.
Nashville- Losing Timonen and Vishnovsky as FA's; could deal Legwand, Dumont or Erat.
NYR- needs to upgrade Defense; could trade Prucha.

OMG, I forgot the most intriguing possiblity I see out there!
Add: Carolina- losing Hedican and Wesley to retirement and Tanabe to FA(although that could be viewed as an upgrade); could dangle Erik Cole or Cory Stillman.

Another thing you need to add in is the availability of the UFA's. Like Pittsburgh, will they make a trade before July 1st when they have the cast to throw around for a UFA defenseman that costs them nothing. I suspect Pittsburg will go the UFA route as people will try to fleece them for youngsters they don't want to give up.

Depending on how the Ducks finish this season off, they make not make a deal. They only lose 1 player, and he isn;t an impact defenseman on that team.

Calgary will make a move, and could be a possible trading partner with the Blues. Sutter likes to play in the draft, and the Flames like to go on the cheap. You could see a salvy for Lombo and add the fixtures around it type of deal. The flip side that that Hannan played for Sutter in SJ, and Calgary likes to get former Sharks. So they may sit and wait. I just don't see that happening.

Montreal will make a deal. But I am guessing it will be a UFA type of deal. they will have a lot of money to spend. And they won't lose everyone. They will want a much bigger impact player back than the blues can give up. not because of thier assets, but because of the loss the names and the Montreal media pressure to add big names back. This is probably the defining moment in weither Gainey has a job or not.

San Jose won't lose both of them more than likely. Rivet has said he liked his short time in SJ, and he fills a definite role there. I wouldn't be suprised if he resigns. The other defensive slot will be filled from within. The sharks will make a trade in the off season, but it will be a goalie out. They don't need the cap relief quite yet, but when they do, it will be a big name out for no money in return.

Columbus is under no pressure to do anything. they just shifted management out, really are not spending any money, and have very little press or fan pressure to move forward. I do think they will toss Zherdev out for teh right deal, but it involved kids and prospects coming back, somethign the Blues won't give up.

Edmonton is a viable trading partner. A bit of money, but fear to spend it. They will also probably deal a forward as well. But I can't see them doing a 2 for 1 deal. you could move backman up there, but I am not sure you would get anything more than 1 forward back. kind of a wash from the Blues perspective. But if they can get 2, this is the deal to make.

LA started moving young last year. the trend will continue again. They need a goalie worse than anything. They are also under no pressure to win. Deno is quite safe for another year. If they made a deal, it would be for the pick, not the player. And ignore all the news about LA moving that #4 overall, it won't happen unless a guy like Stall comes back, and that isn't going to happen either.

Nashville has a couple of things going against the Blues. 1), they see each other 8 times a year, and 2) Nashville will have some money to spend. They will want a big name player coming back. I suspect this is where Souray will land.

NYR is intresting. Pretty bland trade for both sides. I guess it could work.

Carolina. Would the Blues want a older Stillman back?

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05-21-2007, 12:44 PM
  #45
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Again with negativity on anyone else's ideas. 107 points puts the Blues #7 in the west and out the door in 5-6 no matter if they play Detroit or Anaheim. They simply do not have the scoring power to stay with those teams. Even with your mathematical projections in todays have/ have not NHL they would little better than middle of the pack, that is using your own numbers.

You were the one preaching the wonders of Salvador. You also stated Pittsburgh needs D-men, we have an abundance of defensive minded d-men either here now or coming up soon, McKee, Jackman, Polak, Jackson and of all of those guys the most likely candidate that I see as a tradeable commodity is Salvador. We can't trade Brewer, not with that contract. So if he's as good as you say he is he ought to be
pretty hefty as far as trade value goes. I know I won't miss watching him and Brewer chase the same guy around the net while the opposing wingers start a BBQ in front of Legace.

None of the guys at Peoria right now can step in and help, either they aren't ready
yet, are never going to be ready, or got ready and missed the dance. The guys I mentioned at Pittsburgh are 1/2 to a year away from offering something at the NHL level, poss longer, but thet have POTENTIAL to help improve the Blues not just, " not embarass themselves". Dude our highest scoring left wing last year after Tkachoke left scored 12 goals. That was Rucinsky, who only played 2/3 of the year. I like Rucinsky, he can play anywhere you put him, PP, PK, even strength, but its safe to say he's on the back half of his career, and health always seems to be an issue. The next highest scoring natural left wing was Sejna with 3. By the end of the year Backes, Weight and Cjanek were all spending time there. At the beginning of the year they were our 1st and 2nd line centers and a kid that should be our #2 RW after Stempy.

The Blues had Stempy and Backes breakthrough last year we need to bring some young guys in that have not had that chance yet. The guys are mentioned are in tough with the forwards they have in Pittsburgh. The Blues need help at forward and these are young guys, a couple of years older than our better prospects coming up, that have pro experience that offer potential to help at forward. I really hope that some of these kids play. I would love to see 2 or 3 of them on the opening roster, but I truly think they are a year or 2 away at the earliest, and if thats the case why not try to load up for the future, trade some of these guys that in a few years are not going to be as viable for guys that offer viability for the future. The kids are coming, lets make a bigger army, lets build for a bigger future. I don't want to trade Schwarz, I threw that out for fun, for conjecture. I want to see the Blues get better for the long haul.

I believe with the right off season moves the Blues are a playoff team, I also believe they are 1 Legace injury from being a lottery team next year. Thet need more depth, depth with potential, not just guys who don't embarass themselves. That's what I asked in the beginnning, who out there, realistically, do you think the Blues should go after? Who would you draft? Do you consider the picks future Blues or trade commodities for next years Blues? I don't want to argue with you, it is fun though, I have the same passion that you do Kimsey concerning the Blues, I guess I see the future 3-4 years from now very brightly and it could be even brighter with the right moves now with that future in mind. Our roster right now today is borderline as far as the playoffs go and I don't believe we will be serious contenders for the Cup next year, but if they get in....who knows.

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05-21-2007, 05:41 PM
  #46
PerryTurnbullfan
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Kimzey, the reason I don't agree with you with Stillman is that I would much rather have Cole. Stillman will be ready to bump Chris Kerber in a couple years. Cole is going to be around for a while. We don't need to delete assets to get an older rental player. I agree with you that we need to replace Guerin's goals, but I don't see too many 35 goal guys out there. That is why I say we will need two players to replace his output. Keep in mind that teams paid attention to Tkachuk which opened up space for Guerin. We need a guy that is going to draw the other teams top defensive line, yet still contribute. Boyes is not Tkachuk. I don't like Tkachuk, but I sure would make sure I knew where he was when he hit the ice. If you make a move for a Cole. resign a Tkachuk and sign a Handzus. I think that you just made yourself a team to pay attention to.

Lee17 is right in that we do not have the young depth, when we get hit with injuries. Whitfield, DiSalvatore, and Sejna are to coin a baseball phrase AAAA players. Not good enough for the big time, but put up good minor league numbers. I would prefer to have some guys that don't need much seasoning with some potential along with what we already have.

Kimzey, remember Pronger's first few years. He is going to have to be babysat big time. I can only hope that he gels quicker than Pronger, but we can't count on anything out of him realistically. We will need some extra goals to account for rookie mistakes.

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05-21-2007, 06:07 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
I got mine via my subscription yesterday.

If you haven't got it yet, let me know what you'd like to know, and I'll be glad to hook you up with the info.

P_B

thanks a Lot Brian, I will definatly shoot some questions your way after I pick one up at the local Borders. Where Did Brandon Sutter come in the Rankings.

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05-21-2007, 10:21 PM
  #48
Prussian_Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
thanks a Lot Brian, I will definatly shoot some questions your way after I pick one up at the local Borders. Where Did Brandon Sutter come in the Rankings.
THN has him 10th overall.

They have Angelo Esposito slotted at ninth overall...

P_B


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Old
05-21-2007, 10:31 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
THN has him 10th overall.

They have Angelo Esposito slotted at ninth overall...

P_B

Why not?

Alot of people are moving past Esposito in the rankings for putting up lesser stats or showing similar ability just because people have overanalyzed every aspect of Esposito's game. Esposito has well-documented weaknesses, but he also has a remarkable upside.I'd rather take the devil we know, than take a flyer on some flavor of te week that has "moved past him." Plus unlike Eller and Backstrom, we don't have to go through the headache of bringing our questionmark to America

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05-25-2007, 02:00 PM
  #50
Rush11
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Does anyone have a phone number for The Hockey News? I can't find one on their website, but if I remember correctly, it lists their number in the inside of the front cover. Thanks.

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