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Rumor: Phoneix 1st for Montoya and Prucha

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Old
05-17-2007, 02:14 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Price gotta be the top goaltender prospect, Montoya still has too many holes to his game. You gotta be able to challenge shooters at the NHL level and I don't think he is quite there yet.
what? I'll concure that Montoya still has some work to do, but he has always chalenged shooters, often he's been critisized for being too agressive. At this point Al just needs to keep working on his consistency, which has improved markedly over the last year.

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05-18-2007, 12:19 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
what? I'll concure that Montoya still has some work to do, but he has always chalenged shooters, often he's been critisized for being too agressive. At this point Al just needs to keep working on his consistency, which has improved markedly over the last year.
Montoya doesn't play his size, he is a great athlete and like Fleury moves quick but often times is caught out of position floping around. He doesn't stand the shooter nearly as well as Price and nor do I think he projects well at the NHL ranks. Price is always in position and composed.

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05-18-2007, 12:23 AM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Have you even watched Montoya at all?

Too many holes in his game? The only thing the guy needs to put lots of work into is his consistency. His athleticism is excellent, his positioning is sound, he's actually pretty good at controlling rebounds as well, and handles the 1st shot VERY well.

Stick to the Devils instead of knocking Ranger prospects that you know nothing about.

Nevermind that, but Price has played a total of 14 professional games. Cam Ward had one good season at the NHL level, and was crap this year. Jim Carey had a VEZINA WINNING SEASON and then dissapeared. 14 professional games is NOT NEARLY ENOUGH of a showing to say that this guy is clearly better. How the hell can he be a better prospect at this point than 2 players who have a good amount of experience playing professional hockey?
I'll knock whoever I please whenever I want, sure 15 games isn't a whole lot...then again its reasonable for you to think that since Montoya has been torched like forest in july during the postseason.

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05-18-2007, 12:36 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
I'll knock whoever I please whenever I want, sure 15 games isn't a whole lot...then again its reasonable for you to think that since Montoya has been torched like forest in july during the postseason.
That was Brodeur vs. the Sens, no?

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05-18-2007, 04:22 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
But an 18 year old prospect who hasn't played an ounce of professional hockey will impress people more? That makes no sense at all.

Montoya is 22 years old, and is a 2 time AHL-All Star in his first 2 professional seasons. He's ready for the NHL. A guy like Kane, Turris, or Cherepanov will not be next season.
No - I was referring specifically to Coyote fans regarding goaltending prospects. In recent years we have seen DesRochers, Pelletier, LeNeveu come through juniors and the AHL and then fail to make an impact. We've traded for Boucher who did the same. It's not surprising that Coyote fans in particular are not overly impressed with gaudy AHL stats or even junior ones. Our best goalies have been Sean Burke, Nikolai Khabibulin, Robert Esche and even Zac Bierk once.. all cheap acquisitions.

As a rebuilding team, I would rather have a potential first line player even it takes a couple years than another AHL All Star first-round picked goalie.

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Actually, 2004 is one of the only drafts I can remember in recent years there was no big dropoff in the 1st round, because people went off the board at times, IE: Gretzky picking Wheeler.
The reason some GM's went off the board was precisely because the draft was weak. It was seen as a better decision to take a gamble than draft a mediocre prospect at #5.

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That's probably one of the most evenly distributed rounds I've seen in a while.

That draft was ANYTHING but diluted. 2003 was just too strong of draft, as there was so much good talent to be passed around.
An even distribution of studs and weak picks does not show anything. Some of those late picks were taken late for a reason. They were considered weaker prospects. Late bloomers have improved the stock of the draft several years later but it was not considered a strong year. Barker, Ladd, Wheeler and Montoya is definitely a poor group at no3-6. Adding Ovechkin and Malkin above them and talking about some late bloomers does not change that. Montoya was drafted #6 in a year every bit as lowly regarded as this one - I just dont believe he'd land a better pick than the one he was drafted at! Especially considering he's a goalie and so many top ones are acquired far more cheaply (yet another example being your goalie Lundqvist 7th round).

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05-18-2007, 04:25 PM
  #156
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Wow, the Rangers get HOSED in that deal.

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05-18-2007, 10:48 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Montoya doesn't play his size, he is a great athlete and like Fleury moves quick but often times is caught out of position floping around. He doesn't stand the shooter nearly as well as Price and nor do I think he projects well at the NHL ranks. Price is always in position and composed.
Like I said, stick to the Devils, you know NOTHING about Montoya.

You've obviously never seen him play, and you're just judging him on a bad playoffs in which he was playing for a depleted team that had it's two best players in the NHL ranks in Callahan and Girardi.

His positioning is good, could use a little work, sure, but he's not caught out of position often, and when he is, his athleticism is well enough to the point where he doesn't flop around like you said. He RARELY flops, if anything.

Get a clue.

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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
I'll knock whoever I please whenever I want, sure 15 games isn't a whole lot...then again its reasonable for you to think that since Montoya has been torched like forest in july during the postseason.
Like I said, you're judging him on a bad playoff in which his team was depleted due to call ups. You're clueless when it comes to the Rangers prospects, so stop bashing them, and stick to the Devils.

15 games isn't a whole lot. Montoya has proven that he can play on a very high level right away in the AHL, it won't be long until he gets a legit shot at the NHL level as a backup, and then is traded in a big deal to get the Rangers a quality center.

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05-18-2007, 11:25 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
No - I was referring specifically to Coyote fans regarding goaltending prospects. In recent years we have seen DesRochers, Pelletier, LeNeveu come through juniors and the AHL and then fail to make an impact. We've traded for Boucher who did the same. It's not surprising that Coyote fans in particular are not overly impressed with gaudy AHL stats or even junior ones. Our best goalies have been Sean Burke, Nikolai Khabibulin, Robert Esche and even Zac Bierk once.. all cheap acquisitions.
Boucher was solid in his rookie year with the Flyers, people forget that.

Bulin was drafted by you guys. Burke is a hack, and I've always believed that he was never starter material. Esche is just terrible, and always has been.

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As a rebuilding team, I would rather have a potential first line player even it takes a couple years than another AHL All Star first-round picked goalie.
How so? He's a POTENTIAL 1st liner. Montoya is a potential ELITE FRANCHISE goaltender. I think I'd rather build from the net out. A potential 1st liner playing in juniors has yet to prove anything at the professional level. Montoya has made that jump, a jump that not many can make.

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The reason some GM's went off the board was precisely because the draft was weak. It was seen as a better decision to take a gamble than draft a mediocre prospect at #5.
I highly doubt that.

If anything, it seems like some GM's did some really bad scouting, and let some players slip by that shouldn't have. Some GM's also took picks because their stock was rising at the time. If anything, you draft the BPA when you can't address a certain need, not draft a player whose stock is on the rise or is at a hot point. That's how the Rangers drafted Korpikoski. He, Tukonen, and Nokelainen absolutely dominated on a line at the 04 U-18 WJC, scoring 11 points a piece, in a tie for the tourney lead in points. Wasn't the smartest pick though. He was a project player, and at a time where the Rangers need depth in the farm system, it wasn't smart to take a project player... See: Hugh Jessiman, for another example of what I'm saying. Zajac was another that should have been a little higher in that draft. I actually had him higher up in the round. I didn't have Wheeler in the 1st round at all. Meszaros was a guy that I thought was going to go top 10, and if the Rangers didn't get Montoya or Barker, they were going after him. Dave Bolland should have been a 1st round pick. If not for Ovechkin and Malkin, Radulov was easily the most offensively talented forward in the drafted, and should have went higher than 15th. Ladd was picked high because his stock was at a high.

A lot of gm's that year went with picks whose stock was high at the time, they weren't going off the board in doing so.

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An even distribution of studs and weak picks does not show anything. Some of those late picks were taken late for a reason. They were considered weaker prospects. Late bloomers have improved the stock of the draft several years later but it was not considered a strong year. Barker, Ladd, Wheeler and Montoya is definitely a poor group at no3-6. Adding Ovechkin and Malkin above them and talking about some late bloomers does not change that. Montoya was drafted #6 in a year every bit as lowly regarded as this one - I just dont believe he'd land a better pick than the one he was drafted at! Especially considering he's a goalie and so many top ones are acquired far more cheaply (yet another example being your goalie Lundqvist 7th round).
Montoya is a FAR BETTER prospect than both Wheeler and Ladd. Barker is debatable on all accounts, but Wheeler and Ladd? Wheeler didn't belong in the 1st round, and Ladd just got hot at the right time. Ladd has done nothing at the NHL yet. His numbers weren't even that great in junior, and so far in the NHL, he's not nearly living up to his billing. What I don't get is what made Ladd and Wheeler so attractive to two different teams that both needed help in net. Ladd's stock was hot yeah, but Montoya was named to the 04 WJC all-tourney team, and was voted top goaltender. That is THE BIGGEST SHOWCASE OF ALL when it comes to the draft. How could Ladd's stock (31 goals and 75 points in 71 games - respectable, but not excellent numbers) overshadow a goaltender who stood on his head in the WJC to best ONE OF THE BEST JUNIOR TEAMS EVER ASSEMBLED? Wheeler is a laugh, Gretz is my boy, but he was OUT OF HIS MIND to take Wheeler, a high school kid, with that pick.

Like I said, it wasn't considered a strong year because 03 was arguably the best draft in the history of the NHL. When you have a draft like that the year before, 99.9% of the time, the next year's draft is going to be considered weak.

With that being said, how was that draft diluted then? If what you said is true, that late bloomers improved the stock of the draft several years later, then how can it be considered diluted? It had two franchise players, and a wave of stars, and some late bloomers. Overall, when it's all said and done, that sounds like anything but diluted to me.

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05-19-2007, 12:07 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't make that trade from the Ranger POV.
i cant see it happening neither

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05-19-2007, 12:20 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
That was Brodeur vs. the Sens, no?
Yes....when you get to a point I'd love to hear it, you are comparing a young prospects failure in the AHL playoffs vs a goaltender getting up in his years who has 3 cups.

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05-19-2007, 12:23 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Like I said, stick to the Devils, you know NOTHING about Montoya.

You've obviously never seen him play, and you're just judging him on a bad playoffs in which he was playing for a depleted team that had it's two best players in the NHL ranks in Callahan and Girardi.

His positioning is good, could use a little work, sure, but he's not caught out of position often, and when he is, his athleticism is well enough to the point where he doesn't flop around like you said. He RARELY flops, if anything.

Get a clue.



Like I said, you're judging him on a bad playoff in which his team was depleted due to call ups. You're clueless when it comes to the Rangers prospects, so stop bashing them, and stick to the Devils.

15 games isn't a whole lot. Montoya has proven that he can play on a very high level right away in the AHL, it won't be long until he gets a legit shot at the NHL level as a backup, and then is traded in a big deal to get the Rangers a quality center.
Stick to something other then hockey because a goaltending prospect will not get you a quality center unless he is pending UFA at the end of the year.


Also, HF's favorite quote comes out, you obviously didn't see him. I seen Montoya over 15 times over my life and while he is getting better he still isn't close to being an NHL starter or even a backup. Watch how often NHL'ers go upstairs on him.

Just wondering how you know I'm clueless towards NYR prospects...because I'm a Devils fan? I have never shown any hatred to NYR or Philly, I call it like it is.

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05-19-2007, 12:57 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Stick to something other then hockey because a goaltending prospect will not get you a quality center unless he is pending UFA at the end of the year.
A blue-chip goaltending prospect alone will get a 1st round pick at best.

Apparently, you've never heard of a packaged deal.

Quote:
Also, HF's favorite quote comes out, you obviously didn't see him. I seen Montoya over 15 times over my life and while he is getting better he still isn't close to being an NHL starter or even a backup. Watch how often NHL'ers go upstairs on him.
You have? Apparently, you're not too observant then, because I've seen him more than that, and you're dead wrong about him.

Isn't close to an NHL starter, sure. A backup? He's close alright, not there yet, but he just might end up being at that point sometime next season. There's a pretty good chance of it.

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Just wondering how you know I'm clueless towards NYR prospects...because I'm a Devils fan? I have never shown any hatred to NYR or Philly, I call it like it is.
With your hatred towards BOTH teams aside, as I've seen you slam them on here AND in HFChat, you just don't know what you're talking about when it comes to our prospects. You're dead wrong on Montoya, and you've shown no reason for me, or anyone on here - apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks you're well off-base on Montoya, as xander is the other - to believe that you're wrong, and just bashing him.

You have no conviction to call it like it is, you've obviously never seen him play if you think he "often gets caught out of position, and flops a lot."

That's not even close to the style of goaltender that he is.

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05-19-2007, 02:12 AM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
A blue-chip goaltending prospect alone will get a 1st round pick at best.

Apparently, you've never heard of a packaged deal.



You have? Apparently, you're not too observant then, because I've seen him more than that, and you're dead wrong about him.

Isn't close to an NHL starter, sure. A backup? He's close alright, not there yet, but he just might end up being at that point sometime next season. There's a pretty good chance of it.



With your hatred towards BOTH teams aside, as I've seen you slam them on here AND in HFChat, you just don't know what you're talking about when it comes to our prospects. You're dead wrong on Montoya, and you've shown no reason for me, or anyone on here - apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks you're well off-base on Montoya, as xander is the other - to believe that you're wrong, and just bashing him.

You have no conviction to call it like it is, you've obviously never seen him play if you think he "often gets caught out of position, and flops a lot."

That's not even close to the style of goaltender that he is.
I guess you...at the age of 16 or 17 are the prospect guru. Get a job as a scout then you can come back and talk. Until then you are a no nothing biased fan.

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05-19-2007, 05:37 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Boucher was solid in his rookie year with the Flyers, people forget that.

Bulin was drafted by you guys. Burke is a hack, and I've always believed that he was never starter material. Esche is just terrible, and always has been.
So do you understand what I'm saying? From the Coyotes perspective, the cheaply acquired goalies have been the best goalies. Khabibulin was drafted in the 9th round. Burke was acquired for Shtalenkov. Despite your personal belief that he was a hack, the guy was stellar as a Coyote - a Vezina candidate and having just about the best save percentage in the league for over 3 years. And Esche is a good backup for a 5th rounder. In contrast all the highly touted young prospects have busted.. even Boucher who was already established in the NHL and who cost a lot to acquire.

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How so? He's a POTENTIAL 1st liner. Montoya is a potential ELITE FRANCHISE goaltender. I think I'd rather build from the net out. A potential 1st liner playing in juniors has yet to prove anything at the professional level. Montoya has made that jump, a jump that not many can make.
He jumped to the AHL. Not to the NHL. Many more bust at this point.. even AHL All Stars. It might be another step but I'd still rather have someone like Kane, JVR or Voracek because a top 5 pick really shouldnt be too worried about making it in the AHL!

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I highly doubt that.

If anything, it seems like some GM's did some really bad scouting, and let some players slip by that shouldn't have.
So you think that Phoenix picking Wheeler was not a gamble and just "bad scouting" ? Well you can think that if you like. However the consensus opinion is that Phoenix were swinging for a home run because guys like Ladd available around there were not strong prospects as you've pointed out. However Ladd was rated in the top 5 for a long time beforehand - I'm not sure why you believe he was taken on a hot streak.

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Some GM's also took picks because their stock was rising at the time. If anything, you draft the BPA when you can't address a certain need, not draft a player whose stock is on the rise or is at a hot point.
A lot of gm's that year went with picks whose stock was high at the time, they weren't going off the board in doing so.
This happens every year.. this isnt something unique about 2004. It was just seen as a below-average draft and to find a stud prospect was harder than usual. How it was viewed then is important because its part of why Montoya was drafted 6th. I'm not sure he'd even be drafted that high if the draft was done with current knowledge.

However prospects start to lose value from when they are drafted until they make the NHL. The only way they gain value is if they massively outperform their draft position and their expectations (see Radulov). I dont think you can say Montoya has done that to the point where he's worth a higher pick unless you've fallen in love with him. I hope the new Phoenix GM has not.

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05-19-2007, 12:34 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
I guess you...at the age of 16 or 17 are the prospect guru. Get a job as a scout then you can come back and talk. Until then you are a no nothing biased fan.
16 or 17, I've been watching and playing hockey for about 15 years.

We're the same age, guy. If you think you know more than me because you're older, that isn't the case.

We're both biased.

The difference between me and you is that I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about, and that I can put my bias aside when discussing other players and teams.

From what I've seen, you can't do so.

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05-19-2007, 01:48 PM
  #166
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So do you understand what I'm saying? From the Coyotes perspective, the cheaply acquired goalies have been the best goalies. Khabibulin was drafted in the 9th round. Burke was acquired for Shtalenkov. Despite your personal belief that he was a hack, the guy was stellar as a Coyote - a Vezina candidate and having just about the best save percentage in the league for over 3 years. And Esche is a good backup for a 5th rounder. In contrast all the highly touted young prospects have busted.. even Boucher who was already established in the NHL and who cost a lot to acquire.
I understand what you're saying to a point, but who says that Montoya will be any different because it took a little more to get him. There's no validity in saying such a thing.

Boucher wasn't that good, I thought he got hot at the right time. I thought LeNeveu had a chance of being a starter, but the ECAC is arguably the weakest of all of the conferences in the NCAA. He put up EXCELLENT numbers for Cornell, and so I thought he'd have at the least an outside shot at being a starter. DesRochers was a guy that I never really saw it with. His numbers weren't great at any level. A guy that has the potential to be an NHL starter should have better numbers than he had at the different levels.

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He jumped to the AHL. Not to the NHL. Many more bust at this point.. even AHL All Stars. It might be another step but I'd still rather have someone like Kane, JVR or Voracek because a top 5 pick really shouldnt be too worried about making it in the AHL!
I'd rather have someone who already has made the first jump, because he is more of a lock to make it at this point than an 18 year old kid freshly drafted.

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So you think that Phoenix picking Wheeler was not a gamble and just "bad scouting" ? Well you can think that if you like. However the consensus opinion is that Phoenix were swinging for a home run because guys like Ladd available around there were not strong prospects as you've pointed out. However Ladd was rated in the top 5 for a long time beforehand - I'm not sure why you believe he was taken on a hot streak.
Two things...

1. Yes, I think that was just bad scouting. Blake Wheeler should have never been a 1st round pick. There were too many strong prospects that should have been drafted higher than him. Wolski, Schremp, Smid, Meszaros, Montoya, Olesz, Radulov, Zajac, Tukonen, Schwarz... Bolland should have been a 1st rounder.

2. Ladd wasn't a top 5 guy for a long time beforehand. Ladd was a guy who was around 10-20, and his stock went through the roof right before the draft. The Rangers were interested in taking him if he had fallen to 6, and the talk about him was that his stock went through the roof.

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This happens every year.. this isnt something unique about 2004. It was just seen as a below-average draft and to find a stud prospect was harder than usual. How it was viewed then is important because its part of why Montoya was drafted 6th. I'm not sure he'd even be drafted that high if the draft was done with current knowledge.
I never said 2004 was unique because of it. Usually, you have one or two players who are drafted at a much higher position because their stock is a hot point. There were an abundance of players who were drafted because of that reason, and THAT was what was different about 04.

You think that Montoya would be drafted at a lower position if the draft was done with current knowledge. I would hold off on that thought. Goalies take longer to develop, and in Montoya's situation, being behind an ELITE goaltender in Henrik Lundqvist, he might not get the chance to prove his worth in NY. Forwards take far less time to develop, and there are more roster spots for forwards (12), than there are for goaltenders (2).

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However prospects start to lose value from when they are drafted until they make the NHL. The only way they gain value is if they massively outperform their draft position and their expectations (see Radulov). I dont think you can say Montoya has done that to the point where he's worth a higher pick unless you've fallen in love with him. I hope the new Phoenix GM has not.
Radulov was billed as the one of, if not the most offensively talented player in the draft outside of Ovechkin and Malkin... if anything, he's lived up to expectations.

Montoya if he had a chance to prove himself at the NHL level could. That's how forwards get ahead, and that's also why goaltenders are almost never taken as 1st overall picks.

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05-19-2007, 03:28 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Burke is a hack, and I've always believed that he was never starter material.
In his strong years here, he was the best goalie we've ever seen. He was a top 3-5 goalie in the entire league during a couple of those years. He was a Vezina canidate at least once, if not twice, while a Coyotes, as well. Hack? Why make a comment like that when you are so obviously ingnorant on the subject? I don't understand why people act so sure about things that they have no idea about.

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05-19-2007, 03:32 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
In his strong years here, he was the best goalie we've ever seen. He was a top 3-5 goalie in the entire league during a couple of those years. He was a Vezina nominee at least once, if not twice, while a Coyote, as well. Hack? Why make a comment like that when you are so obviously ingnorant on the subject? I don't understand why people act so sure about things that they have no idea about.
2002-03 Phoenix NHL 22 12 6 2 1248 2 632 44 2.12 .930

2001-02 Phoenix NHL 60 33 21 6 3587 5 1711 137 2.29 .920

2000-01 Phoenix NHL 62 25 22 13 3644 4 1766 138 2.27 .922

1999-00 Phoenix NHL 35 17 14 3 2074 3 1022 88 2.54 .914

Those are definately HACK numbers for a guy playing behind terrible Phoenix teams.

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05-19-2007, 04:28 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
2002-03 Phoenix NHL 22 12 6 2 1248 2 632 44 2.12 .930

2001-02 Phoenix NHL 60 33 21 6 3587 5 1711 137 2.29 .920

2000-01 Phoenix NHL 62 25 22 13 3644 4 1766 138 2.27 .922

1999-00 Phoenix NHL 35 17 14 3 2074 3 1022 88 2.54 .914

Those are definately HACK numbers for a guy playing behind terrible Phoenix teams.
You called me ignorant, but yet, you're the one bringing up a two seasons in which he played less than 35 games.

You've got to be kidding me. Don't ever call anyone ignorant ever again.

22 games is barely 1/4 of a season, 35 games isn't even half.

Sure, he played on some bad teams, and put up very respectable numbers in 01 and 02, but no way was he a top 5 goalie in the league in 00 and 03. I know he was a Vezina nominee in 02, but overall, he wasn't a legit starter for an extended period of time.

The reason why I called him a hack is because he could never put those numbers up year after year. That's why I believe he wasn't starter material. I'd rather have him as a backup.

I probably shouldn't have called him a hack (I just don't like him), but he's definitely not a god, like you're making him out to be.

I understand Phoenix fans have been starved of goaltending minus Khabibulin, but Burke is not a god.

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05-19-2007, 04:45 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
You called me ignorant, but yet, you're the one bringing up a two seasons in which he played less than 35 games.

You've got to be kidding me. Don't ever call anyone ignorant ever again.

22 games is barely 1/4 of a season, 35 games isn't even half.

Sure, he played on some bad teams, and put up very respectable numbers in 01 and 02, but no way was he a top 5 goalie in the league in 00 and 03. I know he was a Vezina nominee in 02, but overall, he wasn't a legit starter for an extended period of time.

The reason why I called him a hack is because he could never put those numbers up year after year. That's why I believe he wasn't starter material. I'd rather have him as a backup.

I probably shouldn't have called him a hack (I just don't like him), but he's definitely not a god, like you're making him out to be.

I understand Phoenix fans have been starved of goaltending minus Khabibulin, but Burke is not a god.
He was traded in the last year. Also, we were trying to groom that waste of space Boucher, and Burke was an old man.

The point is that to call a Vezina finalist a hack is rediculous. I understand that this was a small part of a very average career, but we weren't discussing his entire career, now were we? We were talking about Coyotes goaltending. Sean Burke, in his time here, was better than any other goalie we've ever had in their games as Coyotes. Better, even, than Khabibulin. Does that make him a god? Hardly. I'm not exactly sure why you are accusing me of deifying him. I can't see where you got that. I said that he was a top five goalie in the league during his time here. I stand by that statement.

Oh and as for ignorance, I'll also stand by my previous accusation.

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05-19-2007, 06:52 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
I understand what you're saying to a point, but who says that Montoya will be any different because it took a little more to get him. There's no validity in saying such a thing.

Boucher wasn't that good, I thought he got hot at the right time. I thought LeNeveu had a chance of being a starter, but the ECAC is arguably the weakest of all of the conferences in the NCAA. He put up EXCELLENT numbers for Cornell, and so I thought he'd have at the least an outside shot at being a starter. DesRochers was a guy that I never really saw it with. His numbers weren't great at any level. A guy that has the potential to be an NHL starter should have better numbers than he had at the different levels.
Why do you keep telling me about what you thought of them? It is totally irrelevant. The point is about what Coyote management and fans thought about these goalies. The highly touted ones busted out and some cheaply acquired ones became studs. This experience is why you'll have a particularly hard time convincing Coyote fans that Montoya is worth a top 3 pick.

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I'd rather have someone who already has made the first jump, because he is more of a lock to make it at this point than an 18 year old kid freshly drafted.
In principle it sounds nice but in reality a top 5 pick.. doing good in the AHL should not be difficult in the least.

Quote:

Two things...

1. Yes, I think that was just bad scouting. Blake Wheeler should have never been a 1st round pick. There were too many strong prospects that should have been drafted higher than him. Wolski, Schremp, Smid, Meszaros, Montoya, Olesz, Radulov, Zajac, Tukonen, Schwarz... Bolland should have been a 1st rounder.

2. Ladd wasn't a top 5 guy for a long time beforehand. Ladd was a guy who was around 10-20, and his stock went through the roof right before the draft. The Rangers were interested in taking him if he had fallen to 6, and the talk about him was that his stock went through the roof.
Right okay.. your opinion. I disagree. And so do the professional scouting services of at least four NHL teams.

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I never said 2004 was unique because of it. Usually, you have one or two players who are drafted at a much higher position because their stock is a hot point. There were an abundance of players who were drafted because of that reason, and THAT was what was different about 04.
And because it was a weak draft was exactly why GMs were willing to gamble.

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You think that Montoya would be drafted at a lower position if the draft was done with current knowledge. I would hold off on that thought. Goalies take longer to develop, and in Montoya's situation, being behind an ELITE goaltender in Henrik Lundqvist, he might not get the chance to prove his worth in NY. Forwards take far less time to develop, and there are more roster spots for forwards (12), than there are for goaltenders (2).
Ah.. I should hold off on my judgement calls but yours on Wheeler, Montoya and others are golden?

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Radulov was billed as the one of, if not the most offensively talented player in the draft outside of Ovechkin and Malkin... if anything, he's lived up to expectations.
Radulov was drafted 15th. With his sensational season in the QMJHL he dispelled concerns over his bad attitude.. I mention him as an example of a prospect who became MORE valuable than where he was drafted. Most people would happily give up a better pick than 15th to get him. Montoya is not such an example.

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05-20-2007, 08:24 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
He was traded in the last year. Also, we were trying to groom that waste of space Boucher, and Burke was an old man.
Yeah but you're still talking about his time with the Coyotes? I think 35 games is far too little of a time period.

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The point is that to call a Vezina finalist a hack is rediculous. I understand that this was a small part of a very average career, but we weren't discussing his entire career, now were we? We were talking about Coyotes goaltending. Sean Burke, in his time here, was better than any other goalie we've ever had in their games as Coyotes. Better, even, than Khabibulin. Does that make him a god? Hardly. I'm not exactly sure why you are accusing me of deifying him. I can't see where you got that. I said that he was a top five goalie in the league during his time here. I stand by that statement.
A few things...

1. Like I said, I know I shouldn't have called him a hack. I just don't like him, and think that he was average. Two-bit hack is more fitting though.

2. "...small part of a very average career..." So we agree that he had an average career?

3. Not even in his best year (02), was a he a top 5 goalie in Wins (6th), GAA (15th), or Save Percentage (6th - Tied at .920 with Bulin and Giguere, but played 10 less games than Bulin, - 70 gp - and 7 more than Giguere - 50 gp -).

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Oh and as for ignorance, I'll also stand by my previous accusation.
You know what, keep calling me ignorant, fine.

I'm not the one that's going to look ignorant in the end if you keep sticking your foot in your mouth like you just did.

"...small part of a very average career," but yet I'm ignorant for calling him a hack, which is basically what you're doing in a more polite context.

And I'm the ignorant one?

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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Why do you keep telling me about what you thought of them? It is totally irrelevant. The point is about what Coyote management and fans thought about these goalies. The highly touted ones busted out and some cheaply acquired ones became studs. This experience is why you'll have a particularly hard time convincing Coyote fans that Montoya is worth a top 3 pick.
What I think of them is irrelevant, you're correct. But never having great numbers at any point in time of your hockey career is not so irrelevant, which is the case with DesRochers. He NEVER had great numbers, at any level. LeNeveu had EXCELLENT numbers in one of, if not the weakest of all of the college conferences. Maybe it's the Coyotes Management, and not the goaltending, which is exactly why Montoya would be a good fit for you guys, because another team, scouted, and drafted him. A team that's had an INCREDIBLE prospect turnover ratio in the last few years. I think I'd be more inclined to do so with the resume that the Rangers have had lately... Tyutin, Prucha, Lundqvist, Callahan, Dubinsky, Dawes, Girardi... with the exceptions of Dubinsky and Dawes, all of the afforementioned players went from Ranger prospects to Rangers.

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In principle it sounds nice but in reality a top 5 pick.. doing good in the AHL should not be difficult in the least.
He was a 6th overall pick, and goaltenders take longer to develop, as teams are far more careful with them than they are forwards. It's easier to draft a franchise forward than it is a franchise goaltender.

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Right okay.. your opinion. I disagree. And so do the professional scouting services of at least four NHL teams.
At least 4? 3 did.

Ovechkin and Malkin were LOCKS for #1 and #2 overall that year. Anyone with a brain with the #1 overall or #2 overall pick would have taken one of those two.

Chicago disagreed, but Montoya was very high on their board, knowing that they couldn't get Ovechkin or Malkin. Carolina disagreed, but come back to me when Ladd does something worth a damn at the NHL level. Not only that, but the idiots running their front office down there trade away their top prospects for flaming piles of ******* and bags of pucks. I can't take Carolina's front office seriously after that trade. And lastly, Phoenix disagreed, but what have they done with homegrown prospects lately? And the more important question is, what has Wheeler done? Wheeler wasn't even top 3 in scoring on a STACKED Minnesota team... jeez, TWO DEFENSEMEN outscored him. If he's not a dominant player at the NCAA, which he should be for a 5th overall pick with that combination of size, and supposed skill, playing on an absolute juggernaut of a team in Minnesota, then how much trouble is this kid going to have going into the AHL?

At least Montoya is in the AHL, and doing very well for himself there. He'll get a chance this year at the backup position depending on his training camp with the Rangers.

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And because it was a weak draft was exactly why GMs were willing to gamble.
Like I said, I love Wayne Gretzky, but Wheeler was A TERRIBLE decision. ESPN and TSN's people said it was a terrible decision. Not when there were stronger prospects available. He wasn't even on the board in the 1st round on most teams' lists, they were saying. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

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Ah.. I should hold off on my judgement calls but yours on Wheeler, Montoya and others are golden?
Like I said, a goalie takes longer to develop. There are only 2 roster spots for goaltenders. Montoya will never get the chance to prove his worth as a starter in NY with Henrik already established as an ELITE goaltender. Henrik is the franchise here. He'll get a chance to backup Henrik, and then will probably be traded when he proves that he's NHL material.

I never said Wheeler was a bust, but it sure does look like he wasn't worth a 5th overall pick right now, and I'm not the only one who thinks this way. My point is to reiterate your point that a top 5 overall pick should be further along in the draft.

Quote:
Radulov was drafted 15th. With his sensational season in the QMJHL he dispelled concerns over his bad attitude.. I mention him as an example of a prospect who became MORE valuable than where he was drafted. Most people would happily give up a better pick than 15th to get him. Montoya is not such an example.
Like I said, he was billed by many (RLR, McKeens, THN) as one of, if not the top offensive player in the 04 draft outside of Ovechkin and Malkin. He's not outperforming expectations just because he was taken 15th overall. A bunch of teams just unwittingly passed up on him. He was high up on the Ranger boards, when I saw the Rangers special on that year's draft.

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05-20-2007, 08:41 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Yeah but you're still talking about his time with the Coyotes? I think 35 games is far too little of a time period.
35 games? What the Hell are you talking about? He played 179 games, here.

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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Not even in his best year (02), was a he a top 5 goalie in Wins (6th), GAA (15th), or Save Percentage (6th - Tied at .920 with Bulin and Giguere, but played 10 less games than Bulin, - 70 gp - and 7 more than Giguere - 50 gp -).
He played for the Phoenix Coyotes. Stats aren't everything. I didn't bring them up to prove my point (that he was a top five goalie for a couple of years in Phoenix), but only to disprove yours (that he was a hack, even while with the Coyotes). To formulate my opinion, I used my eyeballs, not a statsheet.

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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
You know what, keep calling me ignorant, fine.

I'm not the one that's going to look ignorant in the end if you keep sticking your foot in your mouth like you just did.

"...small part of a very average career," but yet I'm ignorant for calling him a hack, which is basically what you're doing in a more polite context.

And I'm the ignorant one?
Listen up, for the last time, I never said that Sean Burke had an elite career, just that he had some elite years in Phoenix. To say that Phoenix has had terrible goaltending since Khabibulin left, and to call Sean Burke (the Coyote) a hack, and to further say that he was "never starter material", despite the fact that he was a Vezina nominee, who single handedly carried a poor team all the way to the post season on his back and was unanimously agreed by his teammates to be the true captian of the team, is pure ignorance. Can you get your head around that?

Look, you said something really stupid. Admit that you were talking out of your ass and move on. I can't understand why you are continuing to try and defend your utterly ridculous statements.

I say stupid things all of the time, but when someone calls me on it, I don't sit there and defend it to the death.

I don't mean to call you stupid, or say that you are ignorant in general, or that you make a habit of talking out of your ass. Just that you said one stupid thing, for whatever reason, and were ignorant about a relatively obscure goaltender's years on a relatively obscure team, half a decade ago, and for whatever reason pulled a strange statement out of your ass about him. It's understandable, and it's not the end of the world.


Last edited by rt: 05-20-2007 at 08:53 PM.
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05-20-2007, 11:34 PM
  #174
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When someone is so clearly unable to make valid points and argue a position, why even bother with them? Generalizations and an overall lack of knowledge about a team on the other side of the continent, heck the other side of the world for someone that may be so ego-centric.

I feel dirty and used for even reading the last page of this thread.

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05-21-2007, 01:40 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
What I think of them is irrelevant, you're correct. But never having great numbers at any point in time of your hockey career is not so irrelevant, which is the case with DesRochers. He NEVER had great numbers, at any level. LeNeveu had EXCELLENT numbers in one of, if not the weakest of all of the college conferences. Maybe it's the Coyotes Management, and not the goaltending, which is exactly why Montoya would be a good fit for you guys, because another team, scouted, and drafted him. A team that's had an INCREDIBLE prospect turnover ratio in the last few years. I think I'd be more inclined to do so with the resume that the Rangers have had lately... Tyutin, Prucha, Lundqvist, Callahan, Dubinsky, Dawes, Girardi... with the exceptions of Dubinsky and Dawes, all of the afforementioned players went from Ranger prospects to Rangers.
Actually the Coyotes have improved a lot recently and since 1987 are better drafters than the Rangers who are particularly weak at drafting 1st rounders.

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He was a 6th overall pick, and goaltenders take longer to develop, as teams are far more careful with them than they are forwards. It's easier to draft a franchise forward than it is a franchise goaltender.
Read again. My point was that whoever the Coyotes draft with their own top 5 pick.. we really shouldnt be worrying at all about whether they can crack the AHL!

It's also easier to acquire a franchise goalie cheaply than a franchise forward.

Quote:

At least 4? 3 did.

And lastly, Phoenix disagreed, but what have they done with homegrown prospects lately? And the more important question is, what has Wheeler done? Wheeler wasn't even top 3 in scoring on a STACKED Minnesota team... jeez, TWO DEFENSEMEN outscored him. If he's not a dominant player at the NCAA, which he should be for a 5th overall pick with that combination of size, and supposed skill, playing on an absolute juggernaut of a team in Minnesota, then how much trouble is this kid going to have going into the AHL?
Erm you didnt understand the post. I was referring to your personal opinion that Wheeler wasnt a 1st rounder. Several other teams have said they were hoping to draft him in the 1st round.

How much trouble will Wheeler have in the AHL? Your 5 second opinion based on his stats apart, that's irrelevant. The point is that nobody with a top 5 pick in 2007 is going to be worrying about their prospect cracking the AHL. In those terms Montoya making the AHL is a nice sign of progress but nothing more than that.

As for a more informed evaluation of Wheeler, he's pretty much doubled his scoring (despite changing position) and has scored some terrific goals that garnered nationwide attention. Progressing well enough for such a raw player.

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Like I said, I love Wayne Gretzky, but Wheeler was A TERRIBLE decision. ESPN and TSN's people said it was a terrible decision. Not when there were stronger prospects available. He wasn't even on the board in the 1st round on most teams' lists, they were saying. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
ESPN? TSN? This is HFboards... not some pop media outlet where they dont know how to spell Cherepanov. And they do not have access to "most team's lists" to be able to tell you that - that would be a fabrication. Secondly most teams have wildly different lists anyway.. there isnt the homogenous consensus that is usually arrived at in the media or here.

And Gretzky did not do much other than announce the pick so whether you love him or not is also irrelevant.

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Like I said, he was billed by many (RLR, McKeens, THN) as one of, if not the top offensive player in the 04 draft outside of Ovechkin and Malkin. He's not outperforming expectations just because he was taken 15th overall. A bunch of teams just unwittingly passed up on him. He was high up on the Ranger boards, when I saw the Rangers special on that year's draft.
Everyone did hear about Radulov's upside. A bunch of teams did not "unwittingly pass" on him! They all also heard about him falling out with his coach.

To reiterate, prospects lose value (until they make the NHL) UNLESS they outperform their position. Radulov is an example of someone who outperformed where he was 'valued' or drafted at. Montoya is not.. he is not worth a better pick.

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