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Old
06-05-2007, 04:33 PM
  #26
Jeds2StepOpus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
Its hard to have a logical debate with you on this topic because of your fanatical love towards jed, but I'll try.
It's hard to carry on a logical debate ......when you're incapable of being logical.

Ragging on my username and my support of Ortmeyer, is neither logical or relevent.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
Players like Jagr, Nylander, Straka etc are gonna stick around longer because they produce for the team and they are top 2 line players. So comparing them to someone like Jed is pure lunacy.
Yet, many rag on Ortmeyer for not scoring more goals, which is an act of demanding Ortmeyer help out with the job that the guys on the First, Second and Third Lines should be doing. Yeah, funny how that works Cake and eat it, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
We both agreed that Jed is a 4th line player and nothing more. The negative of being regarded as nothing more than a 4th line player is that when you get to the 29,30,31 age you get replaced with someone younger because there are always a ton of young players waiting to "play with heart" who have 4th line talent to replace you.
If you agree he's a Fourth Line player, then you should realize the contribution and worth of that contribution........of Ortmeyer as a Fourth Line player.

We don't know that the Rangers have any players in the system who "play with heart" and can do the excellent job of penalty killing, blocking shots, defensive coverage, physicality and energy; of a Jed Ortmeyer. Maybe it would be more logical to wait and see if there's anyone who could do his job, before writing him off and discarding him?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
So when I refer to jed as "old in the tooth", its because for a player who has topped out in terms of potential
Logically speaking, you can't say a player has "topped out" in potential, at 29/30 years old.

I doubt Ortmeyer can become much more than what he is now. Maybe ...just maybe he can improve his offensive game to 10-12 goals/ 10-15 assists; if he really works at it and gets put in a position to play with linemates a little more talented than Betts/Hollweg/Orr. But I doubt it. Regardless, you don't know he's "topped out". Especially during a season when he was recovering from a life-threatening health problem and only played 40 something regulation games.

It's not unusual for a role player to start becoming more offensively-savy......once he gets into his 30s.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
Let me also go on record by saying I loved the way Jed played for us, i think he was a breath of fresh air that this organization desperately needed because he played like his life depended on every shift and we needed that after watching players come here and treat this like a retirment home. With that said the reality of the situation is that good teams/organizations, which i think we are now, let 29 year old 4th line players walk when their contract ends because they have someone waiting in the wings ready to jump into that spot. It's the life of a 4th liner. Your the first guy to get replaced by the young hungry kid.
And alleged good organizations, make very bad mistakes in doing just that. They forget the hard work ethic, energy, courage and grit that helped their previously bad team, become a a good team.

Teams that forget what got them there, often end up regretting and paying dearly for not retaining those elements in their lineup. The elements a guy like Ortmeyer brings. And that's what it's all about. Building your team from the bottom...up, through the draft and signings of young, hungry character guys and then winning with those guys.

Look at the teams who challenge for the Cup on a regular basis. For the most part, they retain a Fourth Line role player or two, because those guys are the heart and soul of the team. Those are the guys who help build an identity and a pride for the sweater.

Ultimately, there are several guys on this team who are redundant and taking up a roster spot, that could be better suited for some of the type of kids we have coming up. Hossa, Isbister and Hollweg (who I'm also big on) to name a few. Guys who don't offer much of anything else except a few one dimensional abilities, but provide a much less significant contribution, than Ortmeyer.

The lack of value and appreciation for what someone like Ortmeyer brings to the table, by Rangers fans; is unbelievable. Defensive prowess and consistency is extremely important to any team who wants to challenge for the Cup. And the Post-Season is more determined by team defensive prowess, than offensive prowess.

Something it seems fewer and fewer Rangers fans seem to understand and appreciate.

It's always about scoring more goals, at the cost of weakening the team's overall ability to defend and prevent goals against.

A lesson I would have thought most Rangers fans would have learned.......a long, long, long time ago.


Last edited by Jeds2StepOpus: 06-05-2007 at 04:40 PM.
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Old
06-05-2007, 04:55 PM
  #27
Lion Hound
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funky View Post
3 in, 3 out, 3 up

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seen this on the Oiler board, brought it to the attention on the Kings board. Thought it might pass some of those summer time blues. Concept is simple, as the title states name 3 players you would like to see brought into the Kings organization, 3 you want out ,and 3 rookies you want called up.


IN

Hartnell - perfect 2nd line big body, 25 plus goals, hits, skates decent
Drury - perfect 2nd line center, pairs with big Hartnell and lil Prucha
Hannan- tough as nails, defensive, 2nd pairing defensman. Hannan/Staal


OUT

Shanny- I luv the guy, but youth and salary cap is more important(Hartnell)
Malik - Rather have (Hannan)
Kasparaitis - washed up, huge coin, easily replaced (Staal)

UP

Staal - solid #4 (fingers crossed), would luv to see him paired with UFA Hannan
Dubinsky - put Cullen on this guys wing. Excited about this guy
Montoya - even if its for a couple games stretch a couple times a year to get a taste and give Henrik a few days rest at a time
Good thread, surprised there aren't more responses.

Being that 3 are in, and 3 are up, wouldn't that mean 6 are out?

IN
Kariya $4,000,000 Adds Approx $9,180,000
Exelby $684,000
Nylander $4,500,000

OUT
Kaspar $3,160,000 Bought out…I think the buyout would leave 1/3 is that correct? $1,053,000
Shannahan $4,000,000 Gone via UFA
Rachunek $1,800,000 Traded to Atlanta Subtracts Approx $11,000,000
Hossa $600,000 Traded to Atlanta
Weeks $2,000,000 Gone via UFA
Ortmeyer $550,000 Gone via UFA

UP
Montoya $984,000 Adds Approx $2,470,000
Dubinsky $645,000
Staal $850,000


How would we get Exelby? By trading Rachunek, and Hossa to Atlanta for Exelby, and a 2nd rounder in 08.

New Lines
Kariya Nylander Jagr <-Wow! Is all I have to say about that. Insane top line potential!
Avery Straka Callahan All hustle, and could provide decent offense and speed to the 2nd line
Dubinsky Cullen Prucha Dubinsky moves to the wing, and adds the scoring the 3rd line has been missing
Hollweg Betts Orr The dirty work.

Defense
Rachunek Malik Stick with what works, being both are signed through next season
Tyutin Girardi Expect them both to get better in their 2nd season together
Mara Exelby  The physical presence the team has missed since Beuk left.

7th defenseman- Staal

Goal
Lundqvist
Montoya

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Old
06-05-2007, 05:55 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
Good thread, surprised there aren't more responses.

Being that 3 are in, and 3 are up, wouldn't that mean 6 are out?

IN
Kariya $4,000,000 Adds Approx $9,180,000
Exelby $684,000
Nylander $4,500,000

OUT
Kaspar $3,160,000 Bought out…I think the buyout would leave 1/3 is that correct? $1,053,000
Shannahan $4,000,000 Gone via UFA
Rachunek $1,800,000 Traded to Atlanta Subtracts Approx $11,000,000
Hossa $600,000 Traded to Atlanta
Weeks $2,000,000 Gone via UFA
Ortmeyer $550,000 Gone via UFA

UP
Montoya $984,000 Adds Approx $2,470,000
Dubinsky $645,000
Staal $850,000


How would we get Exelby? By trading Rachunek, and Hossa to Atlanta for Exelby, and a 2nd rounder in 08.

New Lines
Kariya Nylander Jagr <-Wow! Is all I have to say about that. Insane top line potential!
Avery Straka Callahan All hustle, and could provide decent offense and speed to the 2nd line
Dubinsky Cullen Prucha Dubinsky moves to the wing, and adds the scoring the 3rd line has been missing
Hollweg Betts Orr The dirty work.

Defense
Rachunek Malik Stick with what works, being both are signed through next season
Tyutin Girardi Expect them both to get better in their 2nd season together
Mara Exelby  The physical presence the team has missed since Beuk left.

7th defenseman- Staal

Goal
Lundqvist
Montoya


If we trade Rachunek in the deal to get Exelby, why are both of them in our lineup?

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Old
06-05-2007, 06:05 PM
  #29
TomLaidlaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post




If you agree he's a Fourth Line player, then you should realize the contribution and worth of that contribution........of Ortmeyer as a Fourth Line player.

I said in my previous post that I was and still am a big Jed fan, but at the same time I understand that he is one of the guys on this team who's role can be replaced by a combo of Hollweg in the hitting department and Cally on the PK. Both players who are much younger than jed and it will give Cally more icetime putting him out there on the PK.



We don't know that the Rangers have any players in the system who "play with heart" and can do the excellent job of penalty killing, blocking shots, defensive coverage, physicality and energy; of a Jed Ortmeyer.

Actually we do. Ryan Callahan showed as much intensity as anyone on the ice, along with the willingness to throw his body into anything that moves. He is faster and younger than ortmeyer which is why I forsee him sliding into orts penalty killing spot and us not missing a beat. Our 4th line will be Hollweg-Betts-Orr so it wouldn't be like we would be creating a hole on the 4th line either. In terms of physciality Cally also has 1 more fight than ortmeyer did his whole career. I liked Ortmeyer but his unwillingness to "ever" drop the mitts to stick up for his teammates rubbed me the wrong way as a fight fan, especially when your a 4th line winger. Look at Hollweg for instance, the guy is an awful fighter but is always willing to stick up for his teammates



Logically speaking, you can't say a player has "topped out" in potential, at 29/30 years old.

When it comes to Jed, yes I can. I've seen every game the kid has played. He has a ton of heart but he is what he is, a 4th liner and thats it. I would love if he had the potential to turn into a Darcy Tucker type player but I just don't see it, and I have to go off what I see.



And alleged good organizations, make very bad mistakes in doing just that. They forget the hard work ethic, energy, courage and grit that helped their previously bad team, become a a good team.

there is a difference between forgetting what types of players caused the turn around and replacing them with younger versions, which is what I think we are doing. I don't see us replacing the Jed ortmeyers and ryan hollwegs with soft floaters.

Look at the teams who challenge for the Cup on a regular basis. For the most part, they retain a Fourth Line role player or two

As will we by retaining Hollweg, Betts, and Orr

Ultimately, there are several guys on this team who are redundant and taking up a roster spot, that could be better suited for some of the type of kids we have coming up. Hossa, Isbister and Hollweg (who I'm also big on) to name a few. Guys who don't offer much of anything else except a few one dimensional abilities, but provide a much less significant contribution, than Ortmeyer.

Here is the core of our disagreement. I view Ortmeyer as one of the bunch of one/two dimensional players you are refering too. You feel he is better than that. I view Hollweg as a younger version of jed, and we don't necessarily need both.
In summary. We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this topic...

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Old
06-05-2007, 06:06 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bretzky-StaalFor07 View Post
If we trade Rachunek in the deal to get Exelby, why are both of them in our lineup?
Meant Rozsival...not Rachunek

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06-05-2007, 06:29 PM
  #31
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I don't even want three external additions on next year's team, but whatever:

In:
Forsberg
Souray
Player X

Out:
Weekes
Rachunek
Mara

Up:
Staal
Montoya
Dawes

Let me go on the record as saying that I like both Rachunek and Mara, but Souray and Staal would better suit what this team needs from the D.

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Old
06-05-2007, 06:54 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Hartnell is a very tempting possibility. Along with the attributes you have mentioned, he is also very versitile in that he is capable of playing all three Forward positions......and playing them without a loss of effectiveness.




I disagree. The Second Line was a mess last season, as was the Third line. Completely disjointed and no chemistry between linemates. I don't see Forsberg improving on that and making anything better.



If you love the guy so much, then, you should know he's not a Third Liner. He's a Fourth Liner.

We have defensive forwards who bring more in the AHL? Who? And which one of those alleged Forwards have displayed (proven) the ability to do anything at the NHL level? Bringing more at the AHL, doesn't automatically mean they can do as well at the NHL level.




I don't believe there's any definitive evidence that Staal is ready for the NHL, yet.

He certainly appears to have developed and improved significanlty at the Junior level, this past season. But that hardly indicates he's ready for NHL talent, strength and speed. Let's hope he works out hard in the off-season and puts on some more muscle/weight. That would be a good step forward for him. But it's more likely he will need some time in Hartford, first.

Having said that, I really do hope you're right and that he is ready. That would be great!




He's had a few opportunities and he's done barely anything with them. Granted he wasn't consistently utilized in a role/position/line which makes the most of his individual skills and attributes. Maybe that happens in October and November of this upcoming season and he's makes the best of it.
putting Dawes on the 4th line with Betts and with 4 mins of ice time is really gonna help his game on the offense if he played on the 3rd line and saw pp time and did nothing then that is a different story.

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Old
06-05-2007, 06:56 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
Good thread, surprised there aren't more responses.

Being that 3 are in, and 3 are up, wouldn't that mean 6 are out?

IN
Kariya $4,000,000 Adds Approx $9,180,000
Exelby $684,000
Nylander $4,500,000

OUT
Kaspar $3,160,000 Bought out…I think the buyout would leave 1/3 is that correct? $1,053,000
Shannahan $4,000,000 Gone via UFA
Rachunek $1,800,000 Traded to Atlanta Subtracts Approx $11,000,000
Hossa $600,000 Traded to Atlanta
Weeks $2,000,000 Gone via UFA
Ortmeyer $550,000 Gone via UFA

UP
Montoya $984,000 Adds Approx $2,470,000
Dubinsky $645,000
Staal $850,000


How would we get Exelby? By trading Rachunek, and Hossa to Atlanta for Exelby, and a 2nd rounder in 08.

New Lines
Kariya Nylander Jagr <-Wow! Is all I have to say about that. Insane top line potential!
Avery Straka Callahan All hustle, and could provide decent offense and speed to the 2nd line
Dubinsky Cullen Prucha Dubinsky moves to the wing, and adds the scoring the 3rd line has been missing
Hollweg Betts Orr The dirty work.

Defense
Rachunek Malik Stick with what works, being both are signed through next season
Tyutin Girardi Expect them both to get better in their 2nd season together
Mara Exelby  The physical presence the team has missed since Beuk left.

7th defenseman- Staal

Goal
Lundqvist
Montoya
thrashers aint dumb enough to do that deal, maybe if u added jim slater they might and well add jessiman lol

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Old
06-05-2007, 06:58 PM
  #34
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Back to the JOrt debate?

his status will be determined by what type of team Renney wants on the ice. He was misplayed last season at times, which very much highlighted why he is expendable (meaning, he played meaningful minutes, when he's more along the lines as a 5-7 minute ES plus PK player). If Renney wants to go tough, he may play Orr or Hollweg. He may want a kid. Ortmeyer is a useful player, if used properly. He should've been playing a bit more on the PK (and Shanny less), and he should've been playing less at ES. I personally would not have a problem with him coming back, but of course I would need to look at all the options before determining that, and that includes what UFAs may be signed, if any.

But one thing we should never understimate is the usefulness of a quality PKer. First, he takes away tough minutes on a Shanny, who needed those minutes, and second, he prevents quality shots.

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Old
06-05-2007, 07:15 PM
  #35
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assuming i HAVE to pick 3 (some id rather pick less), and were talking realistic moves (ie not crosby ovechkin and phaneuf)

in:
Lecavalier, Zherdev, Boyle

out:
Hollweg, Weekes, Ortmeyer

up:
Dawes, Staal, Baranka

assuming zherdev replaces prucha, and montoya is traded away in one of those deals.

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Old
06-05-2007, 07:35 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
assuming i HAVE to pick 3 (some id rather pick less), and were talking realistic moves (ie not crosby ovechkin and phaneuf)

in:
Lecavalier, Zherdev, Boyle

out:
Hollweg, Weekes, Ortmeyer

up:
Dawes, Staal, Baranka

assuming zherdev replaces prucha, and montoya is traded away in one of those deals.
i think a dman would go back in the bolts deal, maybe staal or sauer most likely

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Old
06-05-2007, 08:41 PM
  #37
Jeds2StepOpus
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putting Dawes on the 4th line with Betts and with 4 mins of ice time is really gonna help his game on the offense if he played on the 3rd line and saw pp time and did nothing then that is a different story.
Uh yeah. I suppose that's why I said this....

" He's had a few opportunities and he's done barely anything with them. Granted he wasn't consistently utilized in a role/position/line which makes the most of his individual skills and attributes. Maybe that happens in October and November of this upcoming season and he's makes the best of it. "

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Old
06-06-2007, 02:51 AM
  #38
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IN:
Drury
Souray (although his price is going to probably be too high)
Hannan

OUT:
Malik
Rachunek
Isbister

UP:
Dawes
Staal
Dubinsky

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Old
06-06-2007, 11:14 AM
  #39
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Personally I think its essential that we bring in another winger. I want to see Prucha do well and I'm not convinced with Hossa so I think in order to make Prucha work he needs to be put on a line with winners... Prucha has proven he can score...next year is where he should solidify himself as a bonified 2nd liner.

Winger-Nylander-Jagr
Straka-Centre-Prucha
Avery-Cullen-Callahan
Hossa-Betts-Byers

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