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Michael Ryder: Value of a 30 goal scorer

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Old
06-19-2007, 09:32 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Thanks a million for proving that poster Mastak (who states that "most of the goals of Ryder are mostly the effort of his linemates and he gets all the credit just by shooting") is indeed a real idiot. Man, didn't you ever make him look stupid.

I dont think we should go so far.

It just goes to show how prejudice can affect a person's evaluation.

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06-19-2007, 09:34 PM
  #177
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that s an incredible job RED

One thing I d like to say about Ryder is that, he scored 30 goals...but missed so many chances...
lol

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06-19-2007, 09:39 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Sthabs View Post
that s an incredible job RED

One thing I d like to say about Ryder is that, he scored 30 goals...but missed so many chances...
lol
The funny thing is he was on pace for 40 goals in the first half of the season until the team's confidence went south around Christmas. Ryder picked up his play in the final quarter of the season along with others, but it was too little too late. I think Ryder is quite capable of getting 35-40 especially now that we finally have a second line (one that was discovered too late last season) that can take the pressure off of Ryer and Koivu. I'm expecting great things from that Plek-Higgs-Kost line next year.

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06-19-2007, 09:49 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if Ryder gets 3 million +, Gainey needs to go!

enough already about the 30 goals hype... the guy was absolutely USELESS 5 on 5. Yeah, the whole team struggled (except the 3rd line), but as our 1st line RW, he gets the bullseye on his back (along with koivu, but imo koivu brings a boat load more to the team then ryder, not too mention that he has a lot to do with his production)

at under 3 mill, it's hard to really critisize the guy for being so unproductive anywhere but on the PP, but any more than that, and he would have to produce a LOT more even strength. You don't pay a guy 3 million just to be a PP specialist.

Ryder had as many even strength goals as boyd gordon... but yeah, he's a 1st line sniper

Please go to post #168, in this thread, by poster RedSkull and then sign yourself up as the newest member of the "idiot club" after reading and watching his evidence presented.

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06-19-2007, 11:42 PM
  #180
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I've got mixed feelings about Ryder. I do acknowledge he has a nose for the net and garbage goals. He's got a hell of a shot too! I think the guy works hard and cares about the team. However, he has a lot of holes in his game. He's an average skater and he's a liabillity on defence. If he's not in a scoring streak, he is pretty useless. Also, he has a horrible hockey sense. He could not pass to his dying mother. He's a unselfish puck hog because he doesn't read plays well.


He's very frustating to watch at times. His style of play and his overall game (not his character) reminds me of Ray Sheppard. If he wants 3M or more I would trade him, His scoring ability makes him an attractive trade bait. However what makes it difficult to trade him is that we're offensively challenged. Also, Ryder is a right handed shot who is very useful on the powerplay.


Last edited by Habdiction: 06-20-2007 at 12:12 AM.
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06-19-2007, 11:55 PM
  #181
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I think we suck it up and pay Ryder for this season, because reality tells me that we're not going to be able to sign enough players to replace him and Souray AND improve our goalscoring.

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06-20-2007, 02:11 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
You had to know it was coming, but I just broke down every one of Ryder's goals (that I could get tape of.. which is nearly all of them). I've bolded the goals I believe were Ryder benefiting greatly from other players, and italicized those I think are "neutral" in that Ryder neither benefited nor created the goal.
[...]
Heck, even the goals where he "benefited" from good or great passing, he had to be in the right position to make it happen.

I'm not a huge Ryder fan for a couple reasons, but seriously if you're going to criticize his goalscoring I'll back him up because that is the one aspect of Ryder's game where he's very good.
Hell yeah, thank you...because of you, I have a big opportunity to practice my english so I thank you (in a way) for that.

Now, it's also nice that you have great ass-lickers (and I give myself the right to use that word for them because some called me "idiot", even you, oh well. I wouldn't call someone like that if I would have been treated respectfully, thank you to understand that) to back you up when you argue, but it doesn't mean that you're right..First of all

I think it's just ****ed up that you've been that far to argue and I props you for that but now you have to come to the fact that this is what I said: (So you all did this for...well, not much because I stated (if you read the quote entirely) only the truth which is Ryder doesn't score his goals alone)

Quote:
most of the goals of Ryder are mostly the effort of his linemates and he gets all the credit just by shooting (I'm not saying this is not good, you need a guy that shoots) but it's not only him that makes the play. So the statistics that you bring could also very well say that Higgins and Koivu make important plays when needed, and that Ryder is there to bury it, but it's the effort of his linemates, too.
Way to go guys to just quote me on half of what I said..., you would be great at Journal de Montréal for that, Dynasty, that's for sure...And because you like calling people "idiots" instead of really arguing, I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't be better for you to switch place with me and come live in Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, people here really like calling others "idiots" without knowing why. It's nice to say that to others when you have not much education...but come on, we ain't uneducated, are we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesHabsRock
The problem I have with the Ryder haters is that they pull comments out of their arses listing players on our current squad who "may" or "could" score 30 goals. That's assinine IMO. Until we have someone else who's a proven 30 goal man and has actually scored 30 goals you simply can't afford to lose Ryder. It's easy to say Higgins could be that guy or Plekanec or Latendresse, etc. but they haven't, so Ryder's the guy. Ryder was the one who made it easy to let go of Zednik (previous 30 goal man). There aren't many who score 30+ goals a year in the league, so we hang onto them when we have them. Besides, Ryder is just entering his prime. Let's see if he can get to 35 or even 40 goals this coming season.
I agree partially at what you say, but I mean, Ovechkin didn't have to prove he was an NHLer to make the team...before he scored more than 50 goals...Kostitsyn is not Ovechkin, that's for sure, but he surely has a great potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull
You gotta quelm the bloody idiots around here sometimes.. It just boggles my mind that people honestly think trading Ryder and replacing him with Kostitysn -- effectively a rookie -- is a good idea!
Hmm, listen, I may be wrong but...wasn't Ryder three years ago a rookie? Didn't he had a good season that season?...
I'll show you something
Final (and 3rd) AHL season, Ryder : 69 games, 34 goals, 33 assists, 67 points...isn't it similar than what he gets in the NHL, but slightly higher point/game?
Final (and 3rd) AHL season, Kostitsyn : 50 games, 21 goals, 31 assists, 52 points, +24 (best of his team)

So what I see there is that Kostitsyn had almost the same point per game than your favorite "30-goal we'll never have that from someone else" player, even slightly better.

What we see with these stats but also when we see them on the ice is that Kostitsyn is less of a goalscorer than Ryder, but his "overall" play is better, and he is also a better passer.

What did Ryder do after that season?...your right, he had a great season with the Habs and was a candidate for the "rookie of the year" trophy...Why couldn't Kostitsyn (who, in most people's opinion has a better potential than Ryder) do something similar or even better?

Ryder didn't get much better with the years...and that's why I prefer giving the chance to Kostitsyn instead BUT I also said before that it could also be Kovalev that gives his spot to Kostitsyn but..it's more unlikely ...as I said before, trading Ryder would open the spot for Kostitsyn and get our team better on 5 on 5...but for that, you have to sacrifice a little of the greatness of your PP...

Quote:
But for what it's worth, the 2003 cattle call was labelled by many as the deepest NHL Entry Draft in a decade.
[...] (Speaking of Kostitsyn, in the same article) On the other hand, many call him the best pure talent of the entire draft.
That is in an article talking about the 2003 draft. This is a draft where Eric Staal, Nathan Horton, Nikolai Zherdev, Thomas Vanek, Dion Phaneuf were drafted. Those are all players that are currently playing in the NHL, and many are playing really good hockey.

So I say why not Kostitsyn?!? He's clearly first two lines potential, short-term!

Oh, and because it seems funny to quote someone saying idiot things (even if for me, it was wrong quoting) so I'll give it a try

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesHabsRock
The problem I have with the Ryder haters is that they pull comments out of their arses listing players on our current squad who "may" or "could" score 30 goals. That's assinine IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesHabsRock
picked up his play in the final quarter of the season along with others, but it was too little too late. I think Ryder is quite capable of getting 35-40 especially now that we finally have a second line (one that was discovered too late last season) that can take the pressure off of Ryer and Koivu.
So, Ryder "may" or "could" score 35-40, if I understand?
Should I call you an idiot?

PS: I have nothing against you LesHabsRock, but Dynasty really pissed me off, he's a total dumb & dumber guy..

I'm also tired of hearing people say that we're all on Ryder's case and everything...it's not true! I like Ryder but I think we have to make a choice for the future as who is gonna be our top 2 right wingers, and it would be better to do it now!

Easy for me to quote someone and then laugh and insult him of "idiot", but it doesn't get my arguments any better. It's the same thing with you guys. Idiots.

Thank you.
Wow, it feels good when it's all out.

Oh, and I never mentionned, but I like the idea that one of you said that we could move Ryder to the left wing...it could be possible but he would take Latendresse's place so...I'm not sure about it...both Ryder and Latendresse are not great defensively and "overall"...so I prefer Ryder for now as he scores more goals but I don't know in the future...


Last edited by MastaK: 06-20-2007 at 02:42 AM.
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Old
06-20-2007, 06:17 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Please go to post #168, in this thread, by poster RedSkull and then sign yourself up as the newest member of the "idiot club" after reading and watching his evidence presented.
WOW.

You are a big, big man for being right on an internet message board and belittling others. Truly a king among men.

Or maybe you really need a life. Aren't you the genius that spent the 1st 2 months of the season swearing up and down that Latendresse was useless and had no business being in the NHL?


Last edited by Blades 0f Steel: 06-20-2007 at 07:19 AM.
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Old
06-20-2007, 06:38 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
You had to know it was coming, but I just broke down every one of Ryder's goals (that I could get tape of.. which is nearly all of them). I've bolded the goals I believe were Ryder benefiting greatly from other players, and italicized those I think are "neutral" in that Ryder neither benefited nor created the goal.

(MON vs. PHI) 00:38 in 1st Ryder created the play himself, along with Koivu. Higgins drew coverage in front of the net.
(COL vs. MON) PPG, 00:29 in 3rd Benefited from great passing by Koivu.
(MON vs. BOS) 01:04 in 1st Took on two defenders. This one's all Ryder.
(ATL vs. MON) PPG, 14:18 in 1st Rebound goal, but the play started with Ryder winning a battle for the puck.
(MON vs. CAR) 10:42 in 1st Great pass by Latendresse, but you'll notice the poor pass by Koivu. Lats made that play off the ricochet.
(BOS vs. MON) PPG, 04:37 in 2nd All Ryder down low. Terrible positioning by Thomas, but Ryder's quick release got that goal.
(BUF vs. MON) PPG, 09:11 in 2nd Rebound goal from Souray point shot.
(PIT vs. MON) PPG, 18:34 in 1st Higgins cross to Ryder one-timer.
(MON vs. BOS) SHG, 12:08 in 2nd 2 on 1. Koivu pass to Ryder who puts it home.
(TAM vs. MON) 13:52 in 3rd Deflected Rivet's point shot.
(ATL vs. MON) 09:40 in 3rd Good passing opened up Ryder in the slot, but the goaltender was ready for him. Call it neutral.
(ATL vs. MON) PPG, 17:13 in 3rd Great pass by Koivu in front for Ryder to put it in.
(MON vs. PHI) PPG, 07:10 in 3rd Ryder snapshots it past Niittymaki. No real help there.
(BUF vs. MON) 17:07 in 3rd Perezhogin rush, passes it to Ryder driving the net.
(OTT vs. MON) PPG, 09:14 in 2nd Ryder deflects Souray's point shot.
(MON vs. CLB) PPG, 00:18 in 2nd Koivu pass down low for Ryder. I'll give this one to Ryder benefitting, but it's a close call there.
(WAS vs. MON) PPG, 14:48 in 1st Souray feed for Ryder one-timer. This one's all Ryder in my opinion.
(WAS vs. MON) SHG, 16:01 in 2nd Ryder toe drags it past the defense and puts it home.
(TOR vs. MON) PPG, 14:12 in 1st All Ryder again. Snapshots it home.
(MON vs. BUF) PPG, 07:06 in 2nd I guess Miller was out of position, but seriously Ryder made the most of the opportunity given the bad feed. Neutral again, I guess.
(NYI vs. MON) PPG, 12:42 in 2nd Ryder from the bad angle.
(MON vs. BOS) PPG, 13:37 in 3rd Snapped it past Thomas. The defense was trying to clear the puck.. great play by Higgins to keep it in, but this one's Ryder's since Thomas was ready for it.
(WAS vs. MON) 14:50 in 3rd Ryder stole the puck to create a 2 on 1 and shot it.
(NYR vs. MON) 04:36 in 2nd This one's half-half. Great passing created the first shot, but it was blocked. Ryder scored off the block. We'll go with a neutral here.
(BUF vs. MON) 15:33 in 1st Deflected Bouillon's point shot. Nice play by Streit there to get it back to Bouillon, but it's still Ryder's goal.
(MON vs. TOR) 01:48 in 2nd Ryder end-to-end. It was a bad goal but Ryder created it, that's for sure.
(MON vs. TOR) PPG, 04:32 in 2nd Another neutral one. Great passing created the first shot, but Ryder then scored on the rebound.
(MON vs. TOR) 07:37 in 2nd Ryder wraparound and jams the puck in.


All together that's 7 goals where Ryder benefited from a great play by another player. If you count rebounds off point shots, the total is 9. I counted four goals where it could have been benefit, but could also be a Ryder-created goal. Even if you count that, that's 13 of 28 goals. There were two that NHL.com doesn't have video of.

OMGZ TRADE HIM HE'S LEECHING OFF KOIVU AND HIGGINS!!!!!

Ryder creates the majority of his goals. If you went and analyzed Higgins' or Koivu's goals (of which there aren't many, by the way) you would probably notice that the ratios are similar.

Heck, even the goals where he "benefited" from good or great passing, he had to be in the right position to make it happen.

I'm not a huge Ryder fan for a couple reasons, but seriously if you're going to criticize his goalscoring I'll back him up because that is the one aspect of Ryder's game where he's very good.
That's some fine work, Lou.

Ryder is a good scorer. But something must be done about the horrible +/- of our top line. I've always suspected that it was mainly the fault of Souray and Dandouillon and perhaps the bad play of our goalies at times.

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06-20-2007, 06:40 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
improve our goalscoring.
Get some decent defensemen that can actually clear the zone correctly and you won't have Ryder, Koivu and Latendresse/Higgins wasting all their energy in the defensive zone.

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06-20-2007, 06:42 AM
  #186
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Ryder is one of the most economical 30 goal men in the league, his value on our roster serously outweighs whatever we would get in return for a trade.

I used to be hard on him want him gone but really after him whos left to score? hes earned his place on the squad through his play in the minors and now in the NHL.

Hes worth 3 millions a season think about how many 30 goalscores make less then that? not many, so everyone crying for gaineys firing get your head out of your ass and realize thats the market.

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06-20-2007, 07:54 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Please go to post #168, in this thread, by poster RedSkull and then sign yourself up as the newest member of the "idiot club" after reading and watching his evidence presented.
hmm, maybe you need to join the "learn to read club"....

I never said that Ryder didn't create or score goals, I simply believe that his output is not worth +3million...

While that breakdown is interesting, it does little to diminish the reality that Ryder was a below average performer @ 5 0n 5 this season as far as 1st line players go...
I never said he is a crap player, or that he doesn't belong in the NHL. He is a good player, he has a solid goal scoring touch, but IMO (and sorry, but your insults will do little to change my opinion) he isn't a quality first line winger.

30 goals is nice, but not when more than half of them on the PP combined with a -25 +/- rating (i don't buy the "it's just a meaningless stat argument, bottom line is that he was on the ice for 25 more goals against than goas for, the point of the game is to score MORE than the opposition)

Ryder is a good opportunistic goal scorer. 2.5-2.8 million is, imo, a fair salary for what he brings to the table. If another team wants to pay more, good for him. but the habs have quality players sitting behind him that are cheaper and IMO, will produce just as, if not more, effectively given his ice time/opportunities.

I have little doubt that Anson carter, paired with Koivu and given Ryder's ice time on the PP, would score 30ish goals next season... but i wouldn't pay him 3 million to do it! Doesn't mean Carter wouldn't "create" some of his own goals!


P.S as nice as that breakdown looks, the posters interpretations are not exactly objective truths... he watched it with a certain perspective, and his analysis shows a clear attempt to "prove" ryder's impact.

"You had to know it was coming, but I just broke down every one of Ryder's goals (that I could get tape of.. which is nearly all of them). I've bolded the goals I believe were Ryder benefiting greatly from other players, and italicized those I think are "neutral" in that Ryder neither benefited nor created the goal."

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06-20-2007, 08:00 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by As the Glorious Weep View Post
That's some fine work, Lou.

Ryder is a good scorer. But something must be done about the horrible +/- of our top line. I've always suspected that it was mainly the fault of Souray and Dandouillon and perhaps the bad play of our goalies at times.
All of this would get fixed simply by adding a #1 center to the team and Puck moving D.

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06-20-2007, 10:42 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
I think it's just ****ed up that you've been that far to argue and I props you for that but now you have to come to the fact that this is what I said: (So you all did this for...well, not much because I stated (if you read the quote entirely) only the truth which is Ryder doesn't score his goals alone)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaK
most of the goals of Ryder are mostly the effort of his linemates and he gets all the credit just by shooting (I'm not saying this is not good, you need a guy that shoots) but it's not only him that makes the play. So the statistics that you bring could also very well say that Higgins and Koivu make important plays when needed, and that Ryder is there to bury it, but it's the effort of his linemates, too.
Firstly, I present evidence when I argue. I can just spout crap out of my mouth, but it's not worth anything without evidence to back it up. I went through a proved that "most of the goals of Ryder are mostly the effort of his linemates and he gets all the credit just by shooting" is NOT TRUE. In fact (and it was surprising to me, too) Ryder created most of the goals that he scored, with little-to-no help from linemates.

Secondly, what you said is a definitive argument that Ryder is just a finisher, and doesn't created plays. What you stated in the second sentence doesn't contradict my argument at all. In fact, it only reaffirms your point about Ryder benefiting from Higgins and Koivu. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it because your English isn't great?

Thirdly, I didn't quote you at all. The argument was intended for your viewing (among others), but it wasn't necessarily directed at you.
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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
Way to go guys to just quote me on half of what I said..., you would be great at Journal de Montréal for that, Dynasty, that's for sure...And because you like calling people "idiots" instead of really arguing, I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't be better for you to switch place with me and come live in Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, people here really like calling others "idiots" without knowing why. It's nice to say that to others when you have not much education...but come on, we ain't uneducated, are we?
I did argue. Again, I don't really know what you're saying here. This doesn't make any sense... who's uneducated? The bold part is a classic oxymoron.

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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
I agree partially at what you say, but I mean, Ovechkin didn't have to prove he was an NHLer to make the team...before he scored more than 50 goals...Kostitsyn is not Ovechkin, that's for sure, but he surely has a great potential.
Here's where we disagree. I think Kostitsyn has good potential, not great. He'll never be an all-star forward, and likely won't score 30-40 goals. He's more of a playmaker than a goalscorer, and should be looked at as a replacement for Kovalev, not a goalscorer.
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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
Hmm, listen, I may be wrong but...wasn't Ryder three years ago a rookie? Didn't he had a good season that season?...
I'll show you something
Final (and 3rd) AHL season, Ryder : 69 games, 34 goals, 33 assists, 67 points...isn't it similar than what he gets in the NHL, but slightly higher point/game?
Final (and 3rd) AHL season, Kostitsyn : 50 games, 21 goals, 31 assists, 52 points, +24 (best of his team)

So what I see there is that Kostitsyn had almost the same point per game than your favorite "30-goal we'll never have that from someone else" player, even slightly better.
The AHL means nothing. Here's Plekanec's stats for his last season in the AHL: 80 games, 29 goals, 35 assists, 64 points
And his first season in the NHL: 67 games, 9 goals, 20 assists, 29 points

That's roughly half of his AHL statistics, which is pretty much what happens on average when a player makes the full-time jump. I think that Kostitsyn could grab 10-12 goals next season no problem, but thus far Kostitsyn has 3 goals, 11 assists in 34 games as an NHL player.

Ryder also didn't start out in the top 6, he was behind Zednik and Sundstrom at the time, and also Kovalev near the end of the season.
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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
What we see with these stats but also when we see them on the ice is that Kostitsyn is less of a goalscorer than Ryder, but his "overall" play is better, and he is also a better passer.
You still need people to score goals. Passing is great but it's not like Koivu is a great finisher. Higgins is okay, but seriously we need pure goalscorers/finishers on the team. Currently Ryder is the only one, and Latendresse has a long way to go before he becomes one.
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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
What did Ryder do after that season?...your right, he had a great season with the Habs and was a candidate for the "rookie of the year" trophy...Why couldn't Kostitsyn (who, in most people's opinion has a better potential than Ryder) do something similar or even better?
He could.. I guess. But why not let him earn a spot in the top 6? Why not start him out on the third line.. just like Ryder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
Ryder didn't get much better with the years...and that's why I prefer giving the chance to Kostitsyn instead BUT I also said before that it could also be Kovalev that gives his spot to Kostitsyn but..it's more unlikely ...as I said before, trading Ryder would open the spot for Kostitsyn and get our team better on 5 on 5...but for that, you have to sacrifice a little of the greatness of your PP...
If Kostitsyn is as good as you say, he'll improve the 5 on 5 by being on the third line just as much as he would on the first. Especially since Carbo plays his top three lines pretty equally in icetime. Let him work his way up, not giftwrap him a position on the first line.
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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
That is in an article talking about the 2003 draft. This is a draft where Eric Staal, Nathan Horton, Nikolai Zherdev, Thomas Vanek, Dion Phaneuf were drafted. Those are all players that are currently playing in the NHL, and many are playing really good hockey.
Quote:
But for what it's worth, the 2003 cattle call was labelled by many as the deepest NHL Entry Draft in a decade.
[...] (Speaking of Kostitsyn, in the same article) On the other hand, many call him the best pure talent of the entire draft.
So I say why not Kostitsyn?!? He's clearly first two lines potential, short-term!
I can think of quite a few other other people who have more "pure talent" but still aren't phenomenal hockey players. The first that comes to mind is Kovalev. Probably one of the most purely talented guys in the NHL, but never comes close to realizing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
...so I prefer Ryder for now as he scores more goals but I don't know in the future...
You've been arguing this whole time that Ryder should be traded and Kostitsyn put in the top 6! Why change your mind now?

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Old
06-20-2007, 10:57 AM
  #190
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Here's the real numbers, so the Ryder haters can suck on it.



May I remind everyone that we are paying Saku 4.75 million and Kovalev 4.5 million. Ryder surpasses them in practically every column for the past 3 years, including even strength goals which apparently Ryder doesn't score. Plekanec only scored 2 more even strength goals, and everyone's saviour Higgins scored the same amount of even strength goals as Ryder did this year.

How about one for the plus/minus lovers? Read the stats - they do not lie. Ryder has a better 3 year +/- rating than our top two forwards. And for a guy who doesn't pass, he's got quite a few assists. In 03/04 he was third on the whole team, in 05/06 he was 6th but only 2 assists away from 5th, and in 06/07 he was 5th on the team.

Ryder played an average of 1 second per game on the PK in his rookie year, then in his second year he played an average of 6 seconds per game on the PK. This past year, he played an average of 48 seconds on the PK per game - or basically a shift and a half (or so). For someone who is a "defensive liability", why does he continue to get more icetime on the PK? There are a lot of forwards the coaches could use on the ice, they don't have to put him out there. Stats do not lie however, and the fact remains that he has worked on his defensive game and the coaches are rewarding him for it.

Ryder did all of this for less than half the amount that we are paying Koivu and Kovalev. He consistantly plays 2-3 mins less PER GAME than Koivu and Kovalev does, yet he also consistantly performs and puts numbers up. People come on here and bash the guy without anything to back them up except for the ridiculous +/- stat. (which I might say, wouldn't matter to them if the fan favorite was -50 because then it would become a "flawed stat") They spout off saying he never passes but don't look at the stats, they say he's a defensive liability without looking at the PK time he plays, they say he doesn't score even strength when he scores more than our top forwards, and they say he is slow without watching the games apparently. They always say "Player X in Hamilton will be able to take over his spot easily" without them ever playing a season in the NHL. Talk about stupidity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We are lucky to have this guy on our team, and he will only get better. I've compared his stats to two NHL VETERANS - and he has only played 3 seasons! Cut him some slack, he is the best performer on this team and you want to trade him? Give your head a shake!!!

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06-20-2007, 11:04 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Give your head a shake!!!
There's that phrase again.

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06-20-2007, 11:18 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by MastaK View Post
I agree partially at what you say, but I mean, Ovechkin didn't have to prove he was an NHLer to make the team...before he scored more than 50 goals...Kostitsyn is not Ovechkin, that's for sure, but he surely has a great potential.
Ovechkin on the Caps and Ryder on the Habs are two totally different apples here. Firstly, Washington is in rebuilding mode and didn't have a 30 goal man or give up one to get Ovechkin. They drafted Ovechkin. Ryder, on the other hand, is Montreal's only proven 30 goal man with no one to take his place if they get rid of him like people want on this board. Montreal is not rebuilding where they can afford to lose an affordable 30 goal man at this point.

Quote:
So, Ryder "may" or "could" score 35-40, if I understand?
Should I call you an idiot?
That's also completely different. I CAN say Ryder may or could score 35-40 because we have the comfort in knowing he already is a 30 goal man, so what's wrong with hoping for him to get to 35-40? You're really trying to twist my statements to suit you.

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06-20-2007, 11:35 AM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Here's the real numbers, so the Ryder haters can suck on it.

...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We are lucky to have this guy on our team, and he will only get better. I've compared his stats to two NHL VETERANS - and he has only played 3 seasons! Cut him some slack, he is the best performer on this team and you want to trade him? Give your head a shake!!!
Nice statistical analysis.

I got a new avatar to support my argumentative views.

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06-20-2007, 12:36 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by cap10bfl View Post
i am so glad that you are not the habs gm

3.5m for ryder? are you kidding me?

ryder......-28, the reason why koivu's +/- is so down, higgins also, i cant take out of my head the number of times ryder caused turnovers or couldnt get the damn puck out of his zone, ryder is a defensive liability...wake up and smell the coffee
Yeesh, this is gonna go on and on I guess. (Not that it ever could've gone any other way.)

You don't even interpret the +/- stat correctly as it applies to 5 guys on the ice and not just one. Your insistance on the importance of +/- in the numbers of a scoring forward is ridiculous. That's what you ought to "take out of your head". While you're up there, insert these facts:

1. Ryder's job is to score goals. 30 a year is a good return for 3.5m If I had 10 guys who scored 30 goals a year, I'd be happy to pay them 35 million dollars collectively.

2. One player is not the cause of an entire line's bad +/-. I love Saku but the guy turns pucks over in the neutral zone, everyone knows it and it isn't just Ryder.

3. Ryder would easily pull 3.5m on the open market.

See you next time, I'm sure this is never gonna go away.

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06-20-2007, 12:58 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
You gotta quelm the bloody idiots around here sometimes.. It just boggles my mind that people honestly think trading Ryder and replacing him with Kostitysn -- effectively a rookie -- is a good idea!
Awesome work RedScull. You know it won't quiet the peanut gallery but that's a post I'm just gonna refer to for the next couple years. Also I will never argue with you, ever (well maybe).

And Krozbee I think you meant "coup de circuit" but what do I know about baseball?

Lastly, I think people are forgetting that we don't have many (any) other real scorers on our team (Higgins may emerge but he's not there yet).

So, does 3.5m / year really look too high now that the facts are laid out? I mean, he's *not* Rydereille or Rydereaux or Ryderestiechalicepeloquin, but neither is he Ryderov, so let's not "ryder" him off so quickly hein?

Bonavista represent!

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06-20-2007, 01:07 PM
  #196
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Thank you to Redscull, znk, bwoar, leshabsrock and dynasty. For if it wasn't for you, I would've lost my mind.

Thank God there are some intelligent people on here.

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06-20-2007, 02:21 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
You had to know it was coming, but I just broke down every one of Ryder's goals .
Nice job. Ryder is not my favorite player on this team, in fact, my favorite thing about Ryder is his accent and the interviews... but here goes:




AymanD's in depth analysis:

The Habs need scoring
Ryder scores.
The Habs need Ryder.

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06-20-2007, 02:22 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
I went through a proved that "most of the goals of Ryder are mostly the effort of his linemates and he gets all the credit just by shooting" is NOT TRUE. In fact (and it was surprising to me, too) Ryder created most of the goals that he scored, with little-to-no help from linemates.
Now, if you could just mention the goals where Ryder actually put a great effort and not only the ones where he's feeded by a great effort of his teammates?...Maybe it would come down to 7 or 8 goals in which he made a good effort to score them. (meaning not only standing near the net waiting for the puck.. so most of these efforts should not be on PP...)
I tried to go on NHL Video to see the videos but I can't play them on my computer...
Quote:
Secondly, what you said is a definitive argument that Ryder is just a finisher, and doesn't created plays. What you stated in the second sentence doesn't contradict my argument at all. In fact, it only reaffirms your point about Ryder benefiting from Higgins and Koivu.
I don't say that Ryder never does create plays. We saw it with his new trick to get passed the defender and shoot..but he's surely benefitting alot from his teammates (which is normal because it is a team game), but he gets credit for having 30 goals from you when only (if you could tell it) 7 or 8 goals are made with a good effort from him. St.Louis scores lots of goals and I mean I'm pretty sure more than 50% are because of a good effort from him, and I'm sure Ryder is far from that..(It's normal, Ryder's a sniper and St.Louis a speedy gonzales), but still Ryder benefits alot from others as others benefit alot from him too. I'm not arguing as who benefits to who, but to who puts more effort, which is important in 5 on 5.

Quote:
I think Kostitsyn has good potential, not great. He'll never be an all-star forward, and likely won't score 30-40 goals. He's more of a playmaker than a goalscorer, and should be looked at as a replacement for Kovalev, not a goalscorer.
It's your opinion but Kostitsyn was still viewed by some as the best pure talent of one of the deepest drafts..and he puts ATLEAST the same amount of effort defensively than Ryder or Kovalev...
Quote:
The AHL means nothing. Here's Plekanec's stats for his last season in the AHL: 80 games, 29 goals, 35 assists, 64 points
And his first season in the NHL: 67 games, 9 goals, 20 assists, 29 points
The difference being Plekanec never went on the first two lines that season with the Habs, if I'm not mistaken (or not more than a few games..) and was in fact 4th center for icetime...after Koivu, Ribeiro and Bonk. But I must agree that AHL means nothing for SOME. Locke is an exemple, but Kostitsyn isn't small. I'm pretty sure Locke could put points on the scoresheet in the NHL, but I think he would get injured pretty fast.

Quote:
Ryder also didn't start out in the top 6, he was behind Zednik and Sundstrom at the time, and also Kovalev near the end of the season.
Ryder had a really good first season...and he was getting almost the same icetime than this season, which is 2nd line time. (but since the coaches play all of their lines..it's hard to tell)..16ish minutes.

I also want to say I hear people say "Yeah but Ryder plays on the PK, it means he's good defensively!!" ..NO...Lapierre also plays on the PK, I don't consider him being good defensively. He plays there because he has good speed so he can really put pressure on the defencemen, Koivu, same thing, plays on the PK even if he is so-so (better than Ryder) defensively.

Quote:
You still need people to score goals. [...] Currently Ryder is the only one, and Latendresse has a long way to go before he becomes one.
I agree on Latendresse, but Higgins is a good scorer, come on there, Higgins is our best player "overall"...he does it all. (so he can score goals, Kovalev too, heck, even Koivu can, he was only 8 goals from Ryder and only 5 before the last game..) you have to someway comme to the conclusion that Ryder is good, but he is not great.
If he scores 35+ next season (which is unlikely to happen), I'll give you guys credit for telling me that he is good for the team. Especially if he's near 0 in the +/-.

Quote:
He could.. I guess. But why not let him earn a spot in the top 6? Why not start him out on the third line.. just like Ryder.
Ryder wasn't a pure talent in one of the deepest drafts. He's still not that much talented. He's a sniper with good speed, but doesn't use his speed often. For the rest of his skills, it's pretty much below average.

Quote:
If Kostitsyn is as good as you say, he'll improve the 5 on 5 by being on the third line just as much as he would on the first. Especially since Carbo plays his top three lines pretty equally in icetime. Let him work his way up, not giftwrap him a position on the first line.
Huh, yeah I guess he'll improve Ryder's play 5 on 5 being on the bench?...Anyways, one day, he'll take one of the spots anyway. I prefer if it's now since we could trade Ryder or Kovalev at a best price.

Quote:
I can think of quite a few other other people who have more "pure talent" but still aren't phenomenal hockey players. The first that comes to mind is Kovalev. Probably one of the most purely talented guys in the NHL, but never comes close to realizing it.
Kostitsyn gives more effort than Kovalev. He's also faster, I think (or anyways Kovalev rarely uses his speed), younger, cheaper...what do you want more? I wouldn't mind seeing Kovalev go. Kostitsyn and Ryder would be good for our two first lines RW...but I would still think Ryder should improve his 5 on 5 play for the team to get better...


Quote:
You've been arguing this whole time that Ryder should be traded and Kostitsyn put in the top 6! Why change your mind now?
I did not change my mind. (You still quote only what you like..)
Kostitsyn's short-term potential is better than what Ryder offers. Ryder is better than Latendresse because Latendresse, in my opinion, will take more years to develop into what he can be than Kostitsyn, and is less talented. (atleast 3-4 years...), so short-term, Ryder IS better than Latendresse, but Kostitsyn at the end of the season will most likely be better than Ryder.
I'm not saying what I say is the absolute truth.
Kostitsyn was considered the best pure talent of his draft, and he's got the effort going with it! Why couldn't he succeed like the 9 before him in the draft did?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesHabsRock
That's also completely different. I CAN say Ryder may or could score 35-40 because we have the comfort in knowing he already is a 30 goal man, so what's wrong with hoping for him to get to 35-40? You're really trying to twist my statements to suit you.
Ok so now you change what you meant to say...good.
Let me show you something:
Michael Ryder: First season: 25 goals, 63 points, +10. I guess we could all expect good things from him in the future, he had nothing we could complain about. At this time, he was even passing alot!
Second season: 30 goals, 55 points, -5. Oh, now we're impressed because he scored 30 goals, but the fact is that he had WAY less assists, and his +/- went down...
Third season: 30 goals (3 in the last game..), 58 points, -25. Hu oh, I guess getting less assists didn't help much, because he's consistently hurting the team with lower and lower +/-...
If I can't talk about players that never played in the NHL as what they could do, will you let me talk about a player which is actually playing in the league and not improving?

I'll say something to you. Michalek and Vanek. Aren't those guys in good NHL teams (so no Pittsburgh are rebuilding excuses!), but still made the team and let me tell you they play alot there and are respectively the best and the second of their team in +/-...? And also respectively second and fourth in points leaders of their team? And some considered Kostitsyn had more talent than them?
Without forgetting the fact Kostitsyn played the last 18 games of the season with us?
He is ready for the big step. And Ryder or Kovalev better get going if they want to stay in this team.

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Old
06-20-2007, 02:34 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
Nice job. Ryder is not my favorite player on this team, in fact, my favorite thing about Ryder is his accent and the interviews... but here goes:




AymanD's in depth analysis:

The Habs need scoring
Ryder scores.
The Habs need Ryder.
This is what people tend to think...and at a certain level it is true.
But it's not only that, if it would be just that, why would teams bother keeping a goalie on the ice?!...

MastaK's in depth analysis:
The Habs need players that score more than they get scored on
Ryder doesn't score more than he gets scored on.
Habs do not need Ryder.

Come on guys, getting goals is not all, you have to help the team get more goals FOR and less goals AGAINST, that's the point of hockey...if not coaches would be like let's just put 5 best scorers on the ice since what the Habs need is goals, oh, Ryder, Koivu, Souray, Higgins, Plekanec, y'all go on the ice and try score as much goals as you can...
Good luck Cristobal, you'll need some.

I guess it would be fun to watch, but would we actually win?...I don't think so...

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06-20-2007, 02:53 PM
  #200
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Seriously. You can argue my points effectively, but don't try to tell me I'm trying to spin your words. I'm quoting you verbatim and replying. If you meant to say something different, than say so.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I want to make the playoffs, and let me tell you that handing Ryder's roster spot to an unproven rookie (actually not a rookie since he's played too many games in the NHL already) isn't the way to do so. That Higgins-Plekanec-Kostitsyn line had some good chemistry last season near the end, and hopefully they'll keep it up. I expect that line to get 2a or 2b icetime, with Latendresse-Koivu-Ryder getting more and Kovalev's line (whoever will be on it) getting about the same as the H-P-K line.

You continue to bring up other players, but it doesn't matter what happened to other players. Each player is an individual case, and you can't say "well Vanek was drafted lower and people thought he had less pure talent so Kostitsyn should be in the NHL".

Also, that draft was 4 years ago now. Things have changed. Talent changes. Players become more effective, or less effective. You can't continue to cling to the straw that is the "pure talent" argument that you keep bringing up.

You mentioned that Kostitsyn played the last 18 games in Montreal. He scored once while getting 2nd line icetime. He definitely has a place in Montreal but I am not willing to give him top-6 icetime when we're trying to make the playoffs.

The difference between how we view the situations is that you're hanging on "coulds" and "mights" as to what Kostitsyn could do with his "short-term potential", where as I'm hanging on to what Ryder has already shown to do consistently with his icetime.

Also, Lapierre is one of the better defensive forwards we have. He's a great checker (not bodycheck, but player checking) that can corral many elite players. That's not the argument, but I think you're overrating Kostitsyn and underrating many of the players that are already on the Habs.

Why does Ryder's effort on a play come into question. He was in the right place at the right time, and that to me means he put the effort in to create the goal. I really don't understand why you think he's incredibly lazy. 7 or 8 goals (of 30) were a good effort? You really need to watch the clips. Many of those goals are incredible efforts by Ryder. Especially in the last game.. which brings up my last point.

Did you notice that Ryder came up big in the final game of the season? You said Koivu only trailed Ryder by 5 goals going into the last game of the season, but yet it was Ryder who manufactured the goals (2 even strength) and got a natural hat trick. Not Koivu. Not Higgins. Not Kostitsyn who didn't produce a single point, let alone a goal. At the same time Kostitsyn had 12:01 minutes of icetime to Ryder's 15:21, 1:04 of which was PK duty and 2:57 on PP, so Kostitsyn actually had MORE even strength icetime than Ryder and didn't produce a goal. We all know that Ryder is streaky, but you can't exclude one game arbitrarily because it doesn't prove anything.

You've never going to convince me that Ryder isn't worthwhile keeping around. I like scoring depth. Keeping both Ryder and Kostitsyn allows us to roll three scoring lines, something that we'll need to do since we don't have any true 1st lines. But if we can roll out three effective second lines I think we'll be better off than last season.

I'm really tired of you re-hashing the same points over and over. Yes, Kostitsyn had good hype when he was drafted. Yes, Ryder is not a very effective defensive forward. Perhaps Kostitsyn might outscore Ryder in 2-3 years, but he's not going to do it next season. I have high hopes for Kostitsyn, but even Vanek (a player you brought up) didn't come out and score the same numbers as he did in the AHL. His goal totals were just about halved, assists about two thirds of what he'd gotten the previous season.


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