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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

LaFleur - Bossy - Jagr

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Old
06-20-2007, 06:50 PM
  #26
ck26
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I would actually take Boom Boom Geoffrion, and probably Charlie Conacher and Andy Bathgate, ahead of Kurri. Boom Boom Geoffrion had the great shooting and offensive abilities, but his grit is really underrated. And Boom Boom is in a very select group of players (I think Gretzky and Messier are the only other ones) with eight straight double-digit post-seasons. That's huge in my books. One of the best post-season performers ever.
The Oilers got bounced in the first round twice -- once before their team really got it together, and once the year Wayne left -- but if you give them a 2nd round (and 5 or 6 more games) then Kurri's streak is 10 years (Kurri was doing more than a point/game those two years anyway). I know having Gretzky on your team makes it easy ... and they played in different eras ... and for different teams ... but Kurri was no slouch. From '80-'86, Kurri outscored Messier in the playoffs every year.

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Old
06-22-2007, 06:45 PM
  #27
Czech Your Math
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
(Bossy) would have won multiple Art Ross Trophies if not for the competition provided by Gretzky.
Gretzky prevented Bossy from winning 1 Ross (and possibly another in '84 if Bossy wasn't injured).

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(Jagr's) competition for the Art Ross wasn't as tough as Lafleur's, and it certainly wasn't as tough as Bossy's.
Considering the competition during Jagr's prime included many European and Russian stars, I doubt this is true. The players most frequently in the top ten in scoring the past 13 seasons:

Jagr 11 (5 Rosses)
Sakic 8
Forsberg 5 (1 Ross)
Selanne, Francis 5
Bure, Kariya, Leclair, Palffy 4
Lemieux 3 (2 Rosses)
Gretzky 3 (1 Ross)
Thornton 3 (1 Ross)
Lindros, Oates, Heatley, Naslund, Modano, Demitra 3

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Old
06-23-2007, 04:51 PM
  #28
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I'd put Bossy closer to Kurri and Geoffrion than Jagr and Lafleur.

It's really hard to compare players who played for dynasties for most of their careers to a player stuck on mediocre teams for most of his.
Bossy and Lafleur were on teams that were usually the favorite in the series during each player's respective prime. Jagr was on teams that often wouldn't have even reached the playoffs if not for his scoring output.

On a career basis, have to take Jagr, who has more playoff points and much higher adjusted totals than either Lafleur or Bossy, and still going strong.

On a peak basis, it's between Jagr and Lafleur. Bossy's adjusted point seasons are far behind their best seasons. Jagr has significantly better adjusted point seasons than Lafleur, but Lafleur was the best forward on Cup winners, which makes it a close call.

As far as playoff performance, I would note the following:

- Bossy had some great playoffs while the Islanders were winning Cups, with some decent playoffs in the years before and after the Cup runs. People talk as though Bossy stepped up his game dramatically in the playoffs, but it was the depth players who really stepped it up. There were many players with small roles during the regular season, practically minor leaguers, who had very good playoffs. Teams in the "dead puck era" just don't score 4-5 goals a game like the '80s Islanders and Oilers often did in the playoffs during their Cup-winning years.

- Lafleur was excellent on Cup-winning Habs clubs, but had many pedestrian (or worse) performances before and after those Cup runs. If he had played on more of an offensive powerhouse dynasty like Oilers/Islanders, he probably would have put up even bigger peak playoff numbers, but playing for a dynasty virtually his whole career never hurts.

- Jagr has had some great playoffs, but since he didn't play on great teams (outside his first 3 seasons), his playoff totals and averages are hampered by this fact (as well as severe shoulder injuries in '01 and '06 playoffs). He's already eclipsed the playoff point totals of both Bossy and Lafleur, a testament to his overall durability and dominance across a 15 year period.

There are many reasons given why Bossy and Lafleur could have performed even better (mainly injuries), but they generally had all the advantages. They were playing on their home continent, with dynasties full of great players for most of their careers.

Jagr ventured across the globe, knowing no English, played a significant role on two Cup winners, then had tremendous individual success on mediocre teams, taking them as far as anyone could have reasonably expected. Had he been playing in a more familiar environment, for a stabler franchise (big difference between a dynasty and a team near bankruptcy) and in an era when players skated (relatively) freely and had large portions of the net at which to shoot... there would be little doubt who was the best of these wingers.


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 06-23-2007 at 05:01 PM. Reason: n
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Old
06-23-2007, 05:06 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
As far as playoff performance, I would note the following:

- Bossy had some great playoffs while the Islanders were winning Cups, with some decent playoffs in the years before and after the Cup runs. People talk as though Bossy stepped up his game dramatically in the playoffs, but it was the depth players who really stepped it up.
Really? Bossy scored 17 goals 3 playoffs in a row. And in less than 20 games each time. Jagr has a high of 11,11,10.

How can you say Bossy didn't step up his game in the playoffs? Because depth players stepped it up in the playoffs we ignore Bossy and Trottier and Potvin stepping up their own games?

Jagr might have more points than Jagr in the playoffs but Bossy still has more goals 85 vs 72. And he did it in a lot fewer games.

Truth is Jagr is a very good playoff player. He is knocked far too much for his playoffs just because he won his Cups so early in his career. But as good as he was in the playoffs he was not as good as Kurri or Bossy. Kurri and Bossy scored goals at a ridiculous pace in the playoffs. Sure they had great players on their line for most of their careers but the fact remains they got results, almost every game they played. Both played their best hockey in the playoffs.

Kurri played with Gretzky but he led the playoffs in goals on all the Cup winning teams they had together. Kurri played a huge 2-way game as well.

I am not saying Kurri was better than Jagr or that Bossy was but both were better playoff players. And Jagr is one of the better playoff guys so that says a great deal.

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Old
06-23-2007, 07:11 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
Jagr might have more points than Jagr in the playoffs but Bossy still has more goals 85 vs 72. And he did it in a lot fewer games.

I am not saying Kurri was better than Jagr or that Bossy was but both were better playoff players. And Jagr is one of the better playoff guys so that says a great deal.
Agreed, both were (well Jagr still is) guys who tend to turn up for playoff games. That said, it;s a bit unfair to compare goals, as Bossy's game was much more centered around that, Jagr ultimately being one of the best playmakers of his era, possibly the best playmaker among wingers.


Overall, it-s VERY hard to compare, but I'd say it's a toss up between Jagr and Lafleur, with Bossy slightly behind.

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Old
06-23-2007, 07:51 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
Really? Bossy scored 17 goals 3 playoffs in a row. And in less than 20 games each time. Jagr has a high of 11,11,10.

How can you say Bossy didn't step up his game in the playoffs? Because depth players stepped it up in the playoffs we ignore Bossy and Trottier and Potvin stepping up their own games?

Jagr might have more points than Jagr in the playoffs but Bossy still has more goals 85 vs 72. And he did it in a lot fewer games.

Truth is Jagr is a very good playoff player. He is knocked far too much for his playoffs just because he won his Cups so early in his career. But as good as he was in the playoffs he was not as good as Kurri or Bossy. Kurri and Bossy scored goals at a ridiculous pace in the playoffs. Sure they had great players on their line for most of their careers but the fact remains they got results, almost every game they played. Both played their best hockey in the playoffs.

Kurri played with Gretzky but he led the playoffs in goals on all the Cup winning teams they had together. Kurri played a huge 2-way game as well.

I am not saying Kurri was better than Jagr or that Bossy was but both were better playoff players. And Jagr is one of the better playoff guys so that says a great deal.
The only thing you're ignoring is the adjusted goals. I'm not going to even act like a expert on the subject, but Kurri and Bossy played in eras where goals where easier to come by... 17 goals back then could easily be 10 or 12 goals today.

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Old
06-23-2007, 10:19 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by PromNiteDumpsterBaby View Post
The only thing you're ignoring is the adjusted goals. I'm not going to even act like a expert on the subject, but Kurri and Bossy played in eras where goals where easier to come by... 17 goals back then could easily be 10 or 12 goals today.
Adjusted or not 17 goals in 18 or 19 games for Bossy or LEADING the playoffs in goals 4 times in 5 years like Kurri is astounding.

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Old
06-25-2007, 06:21 PM
  #33
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