HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Notices

Cheap alternative to Markov

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-27-2007, 08:18 AM
  #26
doublejack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by caseygraves View Post
Again with this Kindl joining the Wings Can you guys name me the last Red Wing to go straight from the OHL to the NHL???

Kindl doesnt have enough EXPERIENCE yet... and has only played a handful of games in the AHL, prolly 10-15
Jiri Fischer made the jump from juniors to the NHL.

But I agree that it's doubtful Kindl will spend the season in Detroit. In all likelihood he will be given at least a season to develop in the AHL first.

doublejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 08:43 AM
  #27
caseygraves
Don Cherry apologist
 
caseygraves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 2,443
vCash: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Jiri Fischer made the jump from juniors to the NHL.

But I agree that it's doubtful Kindl will spend the season in Detroit. In all likelihood he will be given at least a season to develop in the AHL first.
Juri did? I didnt know that and it's actually a pleseant suprise...

but thanks for agreeing with me on Kindl...

caseygraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 09:00 AM
  #28
HockeyinHD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,939
vCash: 500
The Wings already have Nick Boynton on their roster... his name is Andreas Lilja. And, seriously, is being the odd man out for the horrific Phoenix freaking Coyotes supposed to be some kind of endorsement for a player? My lord... have mercy. Guy can't stay on the 'Yotes, but let's pencil him right in for the top pairing of the Red Wings. My eyes are bleeding.

As Gorilla very adroitly pointed out earlier, replacing defensive defensemen is easier than doing so with their more skilled counterparts. His salary comparisons ought to be particularly enlightening to those of the 'run Schneider out of town' camp. Detroit absolutely, positively, undeniably has to sign Schneider or acquire a guy very like Schneider in order to be as competitive as they were last year.

Markov... enh. He's a guy that plays good defense, has some speed, hits well, but is pretty much Maltby-like on the offensive end. That's fine, Detroit needs players like that too, but I'd much rather see the team 'overspend' (ie, pay market price) to acquire/retain a quality offensive dman than see them drop 4+ mil on Scott Hannan, Brad Stuart, or some other dman with more than 4 thumbs to try and trigger their system 20+ minutes a night.

Replacing Markov can be done by a simple competition between the Meech, Quincey, Kindl, and Ericsson's of the world for the #7 slot.

Lidstrom-Kronwall
UFA-Lilja/Lebda
Lilja/Lebda-Chelios

That right there is a pretty good corps of defensemen if the UFA guy is a quality offensive player. If it's Hannan, Stuart or whoever... not so much.

HockeyinHD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 10:06 AM
  #29
HockeyinHD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Jiri Fischer made the jump from juniors to the NHL.
Well, sort of. He was optioned down to the AHL in each of his first two seasons, and even when up I remember Bowman being, um, sparse with his IT.

HockeyinHD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 10:40 AM
  #30
doublejack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Well, sort of. He was optioned down to the AHL in each of his first two seasons, and even when up I remember Bowman being, um, sparse with his IT.
Both times Fischer was optioned down it was simply a numbers game. His rookie year, he made the team... Bowman just didn't have room initially. Jiri played an entire 7 games in the AHL before he was called up as an injury replacement. He played so well that Scotty traded Gill to make a permanent spot for him. For Bowman to move a veteran like that indicates how much confidence he had in Fischer being NHL ready.

His sophomore season, he was again the casualty of too many players for too few spots. Because he still had options he was sent down. After playing just 18 games in the AHL he got his chance again when Chelios had knee trouble. From that point on Fischer stuck in the NHL for good.

As far as IT, yeah, he didn't get much. But isn't that pretty much always the case for 3rd pairing guys? By his 3rd season, Fischer had moved up into the top 4 and became a fixture with Chelios. So I don't think the lack of IT hurt his development any.

doublejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 10:50 AM
  #31
HockeyinHD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Both times Fischer was optioned down it was simply a numbers game.

His sophomore season, he was again the casualty of too many players for too few spots.
That sounds suspiciously like 'not making the team' there, DJ. Either you make the team or you don't. In both cases Fischer didn't... but was subsequently brought up when one of the people who actually did make the team got hurt.

Shall we say Kyle Quincey 'made the team' in 2006-7 because he got called up as an injury replacement, too? I hope not.

Quote:
As far as IT, yeah, he didn't get much. But isn't that pretty much always the case for 3rd pairing guys? By his 3rd season, Fischer had moved up into the top 4 and became a fixture with Chelios. So I don't think the lack of IT hurt his development any.
I tend to agree with that last part... but again, if we're talking about bringing a rook up and putting him on the third pairing at 10 minutes per, I don't have a problem with that. Where I begin to have problems with roster management is when teams have to start throwing more or less completely untested rooks into significant roles, simply because they haven't allowed themselves the cap flexibility of maintaining legitimate NHLers in those positions.

Spending a bunch of dough at forward would do that to the 08 Wings.

HockeyinHD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 11:07 AM
  #32
Winger98
Moderator
powers combined
 
Winger98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 13,777
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Winger98
Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
well lets see, his career says hes got 3 ****ING GOALS... according to TSN.ca, also has a career 36 pts in 116 games. thats horrible for a offensively minded 3rd defensemen. Horrible. He had his chances, he didnt capitalize on anything at all in those 116 games. and to show me "hes got it" you better atleast have a plus 10 or something on a very reliable defensive team, the kid has a career plus 11 and a zero rating last year. Horrible. So... a good start would be 5-10 goals, 30-40 pts, 75+ games played and a plus 10... then maybe ill be happy with his improvement. Hes getting to the point where we cant honestly say hes "young" anymore. Sure in real life standards hes 26, thats young, but in hockey, thats like 10 more years and hes going to be called old. His prime should be comming up soon
Feeling strongly about this, huh?

I agree, though. I think your numbers are fair and I think Kronwall should be able to do it. While he has been touted as an offensive defenceman, he's been asked to be the defensive safeguard for Schneider and getting mop up power play minutes. Bring ni someone to be Kronwall's defensive safeguard and move Kronwall into Schneider's offensive role and let him go at it. As you said, he's not young any more and we have to take the training wheels off sooner or later.

Winger98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 11:54 AM
  #33
doublejack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
That sounds suspiciously like 'not making the team' there, DJ. Either you make the team or you don't. In both cases Fischer didn't... but was subsequently brought up when one of the people who actually did make the team got hurt.

Shall we say Kyle Quincey 'made the team' in 2006-7 because he got called up as an injury replacement, too? I hope not.
You're off on this one. Fischer played 7... SEVEN... games in the AHL his rookie season? Tod Gill was *traded* because Fischer made him expendable. How is that not making the team?

If you want to draw a parallel to a player from last season, there's a much better example than the one you chose. Quincey was not in Fischer's situation. Flip is much closer - he would have made the team out of camp if not for a numbers game, an injury early in the season gave him the break he needed, and he stuck. Do you consider Flip to have not made the NHL last season?

We can go round & round on semantics, but the point is Fischer jumped directly from juniors to the NHL. The precedent is there for Kindl to do the same, if some things fall into place.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I tend to agree with that last part... but again, if we're talking about bringing a rook up and putting him on the third pairing at 10 minutes per, I don't have a problem with that. Where I begin to have problems with roster management is when teams have to start throwing more or less completely untested rooks into significant roles, simply because they haven't allowed themselves the cap flexibility of maintaining legitimate NHLers in those positions.

Spending a bunch of dough at forward would do that to the 08 Wings.
We're on the same page on this. It's one thing for Kindl to take the 6th defender spot, an another thing entirely to rely on him for 20 minutes a night rolling into the playoffs. Hopefully, Holland will realize that he can't afford two top-four defenders right now. Then he can sign one (Schneider) and have him for the entire season, and pick up a more defensive guy at the deadline when he's only due a million or two in salary for the rest of the season.

doublejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 11:59 AM
  #34
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,366
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
The Wings already have Nick Boynton on their roster... his name is Andreas Lilja. And, seriously, is being the odd man out for the horrific Phoenix freaking Coyotes supposed to be some kind of endorsement for a player? My lord... have mercy. Guy can't stay on the 'Yotes, but let's pencil him right in for the top pairing of the Red Wings. My eyes are bleeding.
Boynton is a top 4 dman on Phoenix. The reason he's available is not because he's being outperformed by other players. It's simply a numbers game.

Phoenix has 8 blueliners signed/RFA going into next season and an imbalance of $ dedicated to defense (thanks Jovo), not to mention a very good prospect on the farm that's probably ready to play some NHL minutes (Keith Yandle). The payroll is going to be well under the cap.

It makes sense to move someone with an above average contract which means either Boynton or Derek Morris as the other players are untradable (Jovo), untouchable (Ballard, Michalek), or young with minimal contracts (Jones, Bell).

mouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 12:19 PM
  #35
HockeyinHD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Boynton is a top 4 dman on Phoenix.
6th on the team in ES IT/g among regular dmen. 4th in PK IT/g. 6th in total TOI/g.

So, first, he's not a top 4 dman. He's used like a bottom pairing guy. Second, even if he was 'top 4' (which really means second pairing, and probably #4 in this case) so what? The guy can't beat out Jones or Ballard for playing time and Detroit should go out and give him 2.something mil? No thanks.

Quote:
The reason he's available is not because he's being outperformed by other players. It's simply a numbers game.
Horsenoodles. When you're #6 at even strength you're getting outperformed by other players.

Quote:
It makes sense to move someone with an above average contract which means either Boynton or Derek Morris as the other players are untradable (Jovo), untouchable (Ballard, Michalek), or young with minimal contracts (Jones, Bell).
I don't care. If you can't beat out Keith freaking Ballard... bleh.

HockeyinHD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 12:25 PM
  #36
HockeyinHD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
You're off on this one. Fischer played 7... SEVEN... games in the AHL his rookie season? Tod Gill was *traded* because Fischer made him expendable. How is that not making the team?
There's an easy answer to this, DJ. Was Fischer on the roster to start the season? Whether the injury which got him up with the team happened at game 7 or game 67 isn't relevant. If a guy isn't on the opening day roster, he didn't make the team. Now, as the season progresses guys can get hurt, suck, retire, fall off a cliff or who knows what else... then, players come in to replace them. That doesn't mean I think they made the club.

Quote:
If you want to draw a parallel to a player from last season, there's a much better example than the one you chose. Quincey was not in Fischer's situation.
Really? Quincey wasn't in the AHL until the team called him up to fill in for an injured player? Sounds awfully a lot like Fischer's situation, the injury which sprung Quincey just happened 3 months later.

Quote:
We can go round & round on semantics, but the point is Fischer jumped directly from juniors to the NHL.
Except, you know, for the time he played in the AHL.

HockeyinHD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 01:05 PM
  #37
zetterberg40
Registered User
 
zetterberg40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 21,191
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to zetterberg40
nik boynton was just bought out... put on waivers..

HOLLAND, PICK HIM UP!!!!

him and markov/schneider would be a pretty damn good offseason

zetterberg40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 01:09 PM
  #38
caseygraves
Don Cherry apologist
 
caseygraves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 2,443
vCash: 214
Nick Boynton was put on waivers today...

http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/231767.html

caseygraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 01:24 PM
  #39
HockeyinHD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,939
vCash: 500
I really, truly hope Detroit leaves him alone. He addresses no needs on the team whatsoever.

HockeyinHD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 01:43 PM
  #40
zetterberg40
Registered User
 
zetterberg40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 21,191
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to zetterberg40
hey if no one claims him and he hits ufa market after a buyout, ill pick him up for a mill or 1.25, hes a hell of a improvement over lilja regardless of what anyone thinks... and holland should just buy out that piece of **** as well, duno why you would keep him around.. if quincey doesnt make it hes your new 7th dman

zetterberg40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 03:17 PM
  #41
doublejack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,123
vCash: 500
Are you really this obtuse, or is it just an act?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
There's an easy answer to this, DJ. Was Fischer on the roster to start the season?
Where is it in the CBA where a player can't earn a year of service if he isn't on the opening day roster?

Sorry bub, but everything isn't that cut and dry. Young players can't "make the team" until there is opportunity. Sometimes that's in the form of a player retiring or leaving in the off season, so the opening is there right from the get go. Other times the chance comes mid-season due to injury or whatever. The bottom line is, when the chance comes is the player ready?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Whether the injury which got him up with the team happened at game 7 or game 67 isn't relevant.
This you are actually right on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
If a guy isn't on the opening day roster, he didn't make the team.
Horse manure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Now, as the season progresses guys can get hurt, suck, retire, fall off a cliff or who knows what else... then, players come in to replace them. That doesn't mean I think they made the club.
The key test is, when everyone is healthy who is still there? Back in 99-00, when the D got healthy Bowman was faced with a decision - send Fischer back down or move somebody. His solution? Adios Todd Gill. And this was not a case where Gill was done as an NHL player. In fact, Gill later returned to play 68 games with the Red Wings the next season. Fischer was just better, he made the team, period, end of story.

Tell me then, oh wise one, why was Gill traded to make room for Fiscer if Jiri didn't "make the team".

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Really? Quincey wasn't in the AHL until the team called him up to fill in for an injured player? Sounds awfully a lot like Fischer's situation, the injury which sprung Quincey just happened 3 months later.
Quincey was a last-minute injury call up right before the playoffs. Nobody was traded or waived to make room for him. If Kronwall and Schneider, by some miracle, suddenly became healthy, would Quincey have remained on the team?

Now consider Flip's situation - his solid play directly resulted in Norton getting waived. He literally took what was someone else's roster spot and made it his own. There was nothing temporary about it. Geez, that sounds just like the way it went with Fischer. He played his way onto the team... what a concept

Sorry, but someone has to be blind, deaf and dumb to not see that Fischer's breakthrough very much parallels Filppula's.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Except, you know, for the time he played in the AHL.

Riddle me this, batman. Where did Fischer play in 99-00? The AHL, or the NHL? Do 7 AHL games count more than 52 NHL games?

doublejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 03:47 PM
  #42
bullocks
Registered User
 
bullocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
hey if no one claims him and he hits ufa market after a buyout, ill pick him up for a mill or 1.25, hes a hell of a improvement over lilja regardless of what anyone thinks... and holland should just buy out that piece of **** as well, duno why you would keep him around.. if quincey doesnt make it hes your new 7th dman
he's not gonna sign for $1.25 million. You must be dreaming.

bullocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 04:35 PM
  #43
TOPGUN
I Am Terrible!
 
TOPGUN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Holland
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,676
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I really, truly hope Detroit leaves him alone. He addresses no needs on the team whatsoever.
Indeed, not interested

TOPGUN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2007, 07:04 PM
  #44
caseygraves
Don Cherry apologist
 
caseygraves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 2,443
vCash: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
hey if no one claims him and he hits ufa market after a buyout, ill pick him up for a mill or 1.25, hes a hell of a improvement over lilja regardless of what anyone thinks... and holland should just buy out that piece of **** as well, duno why you would keep him around.. if quincey doesnt make it hes your new 7th dman
I wouldnt pay a million for a guy who just got waived from a bad team...

caseygraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.