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Roenick - HHOF Worthy?

View Poll Results: Is Jermeny Roenick A Hall of Famer ?
Yes 13 19.40%
No 54 80.60%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-05-2007, 03:33 PM
  #26
GB
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Mullen was also the first American to score 500 NHL goals, and I'm sure that helped him get into the HHOF.

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Old
07-05-2007, 04:00 PM
  #27
Dr Love
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=76433

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...pid%5B%5D=4629


1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in hockey? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in hockey?

It's possible that in the early 90s, some people said he was having a better season than Mario or Wayne, however those two were battling injuries during that time, Wayne in 92-93, Mario in 93-94, but they would have been Chicago homers. There's just no way he was better than either one of them. He never reached higher than 5th in the league in scoring, and scoring was what he did best. And at that time Brett Hull was putting up ungodly goal scoring numbers as well, not to mention Mark Messier was still in his prime.

He was, however, God on skates in NHLPA93. The NHLPA93 JR was probably the best player in any video game ever. You had to try to lose if you were the Blackhawks in that game.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

No. Chris Chelios was better, Ed Belfour was just as good.

3. Was he the best player in hockey at his position?

He was maybe the 5th best player at his position (Wayne, Mario, Messier, Yzerman). And if that, only for a few seasons.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of playoff runs?

22 points in 18 playoff games for the Blackhawks in 1992, he certainly was a huge factor in their run to the Finals. He also had 13 points in 18 games for the Flyers in 2004, who reached the ECF. Only two other times did he make it past the first round.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

JR was the last person to realize he should retire.

6. Is he the very best player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

I'm not sure offhand who is still waiting but there's probably someone better. And if there isn't, "best player not in" is not a strong argument. Of players not yet eligible, as JR is, Brett Hull immediately comes to mind.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Yes, but they generally have at least one Cup and/or some post-season awards.

8. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

He wasn't a strong player defensively, so his stats are not misleading. For what it's worth, he's the third highest scoring American born player. He's certainly one of the best American players to play the game.

9. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

See #6.

10. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an award? If not, how many times was he close?

MVP-type seasons? None. The early 90s Chicago days was his best chance but he was far outshadowed by the players already mentioned. Roenick never won a NHL award.

11. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Roenick played in 9 All Star Games. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I would assume just about every player who played in 9 All Star Games is in the Hall of Fame.

12. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could reach the Finals?

It's possible. He did make it to the Finals as maybe the second best player on his team. If he had a strong playoff run and a good supporting cast, it's realistic he would have made the Finals once.

13. What impact did the player have on hockey history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Well, he put Alexei Zhitnik into the wall in spectacular fashion in the 2002 All Star Game, where hitting doesn't happen. While he was no pioneer, he certainly helped get the NHL noticed with his mouth, and provided us with a great quote courtesy of Patrick Roy.

14. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Someone refresh my memory, was he fingered as one of the hotel room trashers in Nagano?

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Old
07-05-2007, 04:13 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Vincent Damphousse has over 1,200 points and he's not going to the HHOF. And you could argue Damphousse's portfolio is even better than Roenick's, with his Cup ring (top scorer on a Cup champion), leadership, two-way play and character.

What did Pierre Turgeon wind up with? 1,300-1,400 points. He's not going in. Dave Andreychuk doesn't belong, either.

Career numbers aren't as significant to voters as they used to be. Not when players have 15-20 year careers.
Its odd because I really think that Damphousse will make the HHOF one day. Good numbers, good playoffs numbers, Stanley Cup, Captain, he even work for the NHLPA.

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Old
07-05-2007, 04:37 PM
  #29
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I'm on the fence with Roenick, and would probably say no.

In his defense, however, he didn't drop off nearly as much as most people claim from his first few seasons in Chicago. Pretty much every elite young player from the early 1990s saw the same sort of 'early career bulge' caused by playing their first few seasons in what was basically an extension of the 1980s, and then the majority of their 'prime' years in the very low-scoring dead puck era. Sundin, Modano, Mogilny, Zubov, Hull, Recchi ... the list goes on and on of players who had career years in their early 20s from 1990-94.

The string of 70-80 point seasons he piled up in Phoenix, especially 1998-01, were roughly equivalent to 90-100 point seasons a decade earlier. 1999-00 in particular was a brilliant year - 11th in scoring with 78 points in 75 games, but missed time due to injury. If he scores at the same rate through the games he missed, he's challenging for top-5 in league scoring that year. Factor in his grit/all-around game and I don't think it's out of line to say that he was a top-10 player in the league that season, and it was every bit as good relative to the rest of the league as his years from 91-94 in Chicago.


Last edited by MS: 07-05-2007 at 04:43 PM.
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Old
07-05-2007, 06:20 PM
  #30
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I haven't seen the Ken Keltner list in a long time!

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Old
07-05-2007, 06:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Please lets stop promoting him as a "sure-fire Hall of Famer"
I not once mentioned him as a sure-fire Hall of Famer.

I just put him in front of Roenick in terms of his chances, mainly because he has some more distinctive accompishments (better career numbers due to longevity, captain of a cup winning team).

Mind you, you put a strong arguement forward. I really wouldn't consider Andreychuk a better player than Roenick overall. But, fact is, neither player is likely getting into the hall, and definitely anytime soon. But, as tmg illustrates, the factors going in favour of Andreychuk have gotten other guys in. It isn't entirely out of the question that he gets in down the line, if the voters adopt that criteria again.

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Old
07-05-2007, 07:03 PM
  #32
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For Roenick to go to the Hall by my vote he would need to have led in some category.

He only went to 1 Final, never won the Cup or Conn Smythe or any other major awards. He was a regular all-star and led his team in scoring but was not a regular league leading scorer for long enough in his career.

He would go down as one of the best American players to play the game, but just not one of the best players to play the game.

The end of his career came hard and fast, and he was often a second tier player after his impressive early seasons.

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07-05-2007, 07:12 PM
  #33
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
11. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Roenick played in 9 All Star Games. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I would assume just about every player who played in 9 All Star Games is in the Hall of Fame.
Pnep would know for sure, but I believe the record for most All-Star games (since expansion) by a non-Hall of Famer would be held by Doug Wilson (7 + Rendez-Vous `87), so Roenick's 9 would be the new mark if and when he gets passed over.

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07-05-2007, 07:51 PM
  #34
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I was a big time Blackhawk fan in the 1980's through 1990's -although I still am now, it is a little tougher following them in 'real-time' in Australia.

I'd like to throw out there that Steve Larmer was just as good, if not a better player with Chicago than Roenick was -in addition to the Chelios/Belfour argument. Roenick was not the same center with Amonte out there in place of Larmer.

Larmer is not in the HoF - has a Stanley Cup with the Rangers, played every game from 1982-93, giving up his consecutive game streak out of a desire to be moved from the Blackhawks. This is a guy who did not play as many games as Roenick -but was a lot more consistent- and not nearly so mouthy.

I don't think think Roenick deserves to get in -mainly because he hasn't even been a point a game guy for a long long time; whether he actually retired or not -- since I don't think he has my cell number- I haven't gotten a text message from him about it

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Old
07-05-2007, 08:14 PM
  #35
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To echo basically everyone else...no, he is not a Hall of Famer. He only had those two or three truly great years with Chicago. Besides those years he was never any better than a very good player. He's one of those weird guys who just peaked early. He could never touch those early years as a Hawk later on.

You can't even begin to argue that his numbers alone get him in. Andreychuk, Ciccarelli, Verbeek, Damphousse, Turgeon, and Nicholls all have comparable or better numbers and none of them are in the Hall. Nor should they be.

Like someone said, a memorable player. He won't soon be forgotten. Just not an all-time great.

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07-05-2007, 08:19 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Pnep would know for sure, but I believe the record for most All-Star games (since expansion) by a non-Hall of Famer would be held by Doug Wilson (7 + Rendez-Vous `87), so Roenick's 9 would be the new mark if and when he gets passed over.
Rob Blake, Theo Fleury, Phil Housley, Paul Kariya, Rick Martin and Garry Unger have also been in 7 all-star games. I wouldn't put any of them in the HOF, though Blake is very close.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 07-05-2007 at 08:39 PM.
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Old
07-05-2007, 08:34 PM
  #37
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No. He was the most entertaining player off the ice that I've ever seen, and he has the best personallity in the world. Unfortunately, those things don't make you a HOF.

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07-05-2007, 08:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Pnep would know for sure, but I believe the record for most All-Star games (since expansion) by a non-Hall of Famer would be held by Doug Wilson (7 + Rendez-Vous `87), so Roenick's 9 would be the new mark if and when he gets passed over.
Claude Provost - 10 All Star Games
Doug Wilson - 8 All Star Games
Gus Mortson - 8 All Star Games

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Old
07-06-2007, 09:15 AM
  #39
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I voted no. I think he would have had a good chance if he had pulled a Selanne at the end of his career. Instead, he spiraled downhill. I remember how dominant he was from 91-97.....Still a great player.

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07-06-2007, 09:55 AM
  #40
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Larry Murphy was named to three all-star teams. He also had stiff competition, as his prime years were spent against Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, MacInnis and Stevens - all in the top 20 defencemen of all-time. Incredible that five of the top 20 were drafted in a four-year span from 1979 to 1982.

And, more importantly, Murphy was a key part of four Cup champions. He was Pittsburgh's No. 1 defenceman in the 91 and 92 playoffs (Coffey was hurt for much of 91 and he was gone in 92), and he was a key deadline addition for Detroit in 1997 - a poised, veteran defenceman who knew what it took to win.

Is the career power play goals record really that relevant? I view it as a niche record - something that a player can reflect upon, but not something that's really that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Before Andreychuk approached the record, how many hockey people would have known who held it? Many might have guessed it was Phil Esposito, and they would have been right, but that would have been more a reflection of Espo's dominance in front of the net, than reverance for the power play goals record.

Andreychuk was never named to a first or second all-star team. And that's at LW, easily the weakest position in the league for nearly 35 years. Big Phil cited some of the LW all-stars during Andreychuk's prime. Gerard Gallant cracked the second all-star team. And while he did captain a team to the Cup (and his work with that Tampa team to get them to the Cup will likely carry more weight than his power play goal record) Andreychuk's playoff portfolio, especially from his prime, is lacking.

Career numbers just aren't the big deal they used to be. Now that players are sustaining excellence for 15 or 20 years, career numbers are losing their luster. It used to be 500 goals, 1,000 points as the shoe-in levels for players. Now it's 700 goals, 1,000 assists and likely 1,500 or 1,600 points. As shown with the rightful inductions of Pat LaFontaine and Cam Neely, voters are now looking at what type of player someone was, not just the career numbers.

Now for Joey Mullen. He's a guy who unfairly gets a bad rap. The bottom line is he was a key player for two Cups champs (won a third when missing a lot of time due to injury). He was a first-team all-star the year he won his first Cup. He reached 500 goals, but I'm more impressed that he was a seven-time 40-goal scorer. And he was a class act, a guy who grew up in New York's Hell's Kitchen area, and respected what the game gave him, because he knew where he'd likely be if he wasn't a hockey player. Should he have been inducted ahead of Dale Hawerchuk in 2000? No, and I think that's where some of the animosity comes from. But as a stand-alone case, does he belong? Yes.

As for number of all-star game appearances - they are irrelevant. Thanks to fan voting and the "every team must be represented" sham, plus the total irrelevance of the all-star game itself, all-star game appearances should not be taken into account when discussing HHOFers.

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07-06-2007, 09:57 AM
  #41
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best video game player ever
Agreed. Anyone who's spent time with NHL '94 knows he's a mortal lock.

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07-07-2007, 12:30 AM
  #42
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Personality Hall of Fame? Without a doubt.
One of the best and most influential American players of all time? Yes.

Hockey Hall of Fame? Personally, I'm on the fence. Not a good sign.

IMO, if you have to ask if a player is hall worthy, he's probably not. Just me, but I think the Hall of Fame should be reserved for the legendary names that you have no doubt were the best and most dominant players at their position of their respective era.

Doesn't mean JR didn't have a very, very solid career though. Just not elite enough of a player to seal the deal for the HHOF.


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07-07-2007, 03:09 AM
  #43
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I'd put him in if he can make something of his post-NHL career. Like Hap Day is in as a player, but his coaching career is equally weighted.

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Old
07-07-2007, 06:07 AM
  #44
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He's gonna be one of those guys who is just barely on the outside looking in. Recchi and Turgeon, too. Probably also Mogilny, Fleury, and Sundin. He's that type of guy.

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