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Old
07-17-2007, 01:14 PM
  #51
Choice
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Now we have the benefit of hindsight. The value of those 3 players then is certainly a lot higher than it was a year later. Honestly, keeping Hlavac and Johnsson seemed, and still seems, like a better gamble for success than acquiring Eric.

Lindros WAS injured at the time of the trade and hadn't/hasn't performed up to "legit first line center" standards since the late 90's.
I'm not saying it was a great move. If I was GM of the team at the time I would have kept all three and tried to use them to build the organization up. Now seeing how 2/3 turned out, that wouldn't have been the right move in hindsight either.

The question asked though, was what Sather move do you wish we could have back. And that one doesn't rank nearly as high in terms of setting the organization back as some others I can think of.

And just to defend my legit first line center point, Lindros did have that team solidly in the playoffs until january when he got injured. Not saying 40 games of stellar play makes a season, but it just showed he was still capable of playing at that level when healthy.

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Old
07-17-2007, 01:19 PM
  #52
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I say the Lindros deal. In hindsight, the people we gave up did not turn out the way Philly hoped, but the deal seriously pushed back a much needed rebuild and we could have gotten a much better package if we were to trade Brendl, Johnson, and Hlavac again. I just remember hearing that trade took place and feeling sick to my stomach.

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07-17-2007, 01:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by zacn View Post
I say the Lindros deal. In hindsight, the people we gave up did not turn out the way Philly hoped, but the deal seriously pushed back a much needed rebuild and we could have gotten a much better package if we were to trade Brendl, Johnson, and Hlavac again. I just remember hearing that trade took place and feeling sick to my stomach.
This may be a chicken or the egg argument, but the way I see it-the deal didnt push back the rebuild, the sick organizational philsophy that wouldn't allow a rebuild is what made the deal possible.

As for the point that we could have gotten something better in return for that package, I can't dispute that, and I'd be curious to know if Sather fielded any other offers or what other GMs would have given.

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Old
07-17-2007, 01:40 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Now we have the benefit of hindsight. The value of those 3 players then is certainly a lot higher than it was a year later. Honestly, keeping Hlavac and Johnsson seemed, and still seems, like a better gamble for success than acquiring Eric.

Lindros WAS injured at the time of the trade and hadn't/hasn't performed up to "legit first line center" standards since the late 90's.
I do you one better, MJ. Even with hindsight the deal is bad because it turns out the best player in the deal went the other way in Johnson.

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07-17-2007, 02:36 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Draft Guru View Post
I wish he didnt draft the Huge Specimen.

If we're not talking about draft picks, then I wish he did not trade Zidlicky.
what was so bad about drafting jessiman? and please dont just say he sucks. i was under the impression that he was alright. am i missing something?

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Old
07-17-2007, 04:23 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I do you one better, MJ. Even with hindsight the deal is bad because it turns out the best player in the deal went the other way in Johnson.
Ah yes if only they never traded Kim Johnson we would have been a playoff juggernaut in the early 00's.

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07-17-2007, 04:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mirinho View Post
maybe, but his trade to WSH in 2001 was steal as well

Jagr was traded to Washington by Pittsburgh with Frantisek Kucera for Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, Ross Lupaschuk and future considerations, July 11, 2001.

so NYR could build team around him since 2001
True, but Jags would be taking up more than the current < $5M on our cap. We'd have about $3M less cap space.

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07-17-2007, 04:33 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JohnnyChoice View Post
Ah yes if only they never traded Kim Johnson we would have been a playoff juggernaut in the early 00's.
It would have been better than having the Dave Karpas, Dale Purintons, Bryan Berards, Tom Potis and Igor Ulanovs.

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07-17-2007, 04:37 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyChoice View Post
This may be a chicken or the egg argument, but the way I see it-the deal didnt push back the rebuild, the sick organizational philsophy that wouldn't allow a rebuild is what made the deal possible.

As for the point that we could have gotten something better in return for that package, I can't dispute that, and I'd be curious to know if Sather fielded any other offers or what other GMs would have given.
I agree that the organizational philosophy is what was broken but had we not made that deal, the apparent need for even more older washed up stars might have slightly less terrible. Once you go in on Lindros, you are going to make other dumb signings because you see him as someone to build around. Maybe we wouldn't have ever signed Holik to fortify a second line? I really don't know and yes it is silly to try to make too much out of something you cannot prove but I do feel if Sather was a card player, making that Lindros deal was the same as just saying "all in" and I always hate that approach.

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07-17-2007, 04:59 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by zacn View Post
I agree that the organizational philosophy is what was broken but had we not made that deal, the apparent need for even more older washed up stars might have slightly less terrible. Once you go in on Lindros, you are going to make other dumb signings because you see him as someone to build around. Maybe we wouldn't have ever signed Holik to fortify a second line? I really don't know and yes it is silly to try to make too much out of something you cannot prove but I do feel if Sather was a card player, making that Lindros deal was the same as just saying "all in" and I always hate that approach.
Thats why I said Messier returning was the move I'd like back. It represents to me more than anything how broken the organizational philosophy was. I wasn't up in arms when they decided to bring him back, but I was when I saw him playing 2nd line minutes.

I think its that they were desperate to find someone, anyone, who they thought they could build around because they were so desperate to make the playoffs. At least Lindros contributed to that cause when he was healthy.

As for going all in, sometimes you have to throw you weight around.

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07-17-2007, 05:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I don't think the fact that Lindros had a few good stretches means that something positive came out of the trade. The bottom line is, Sather paid a hefty price and the result was not an improved team. That was the goal after all.

At the risk of departing from infensus' thread concept, imagine for a moment what else could have been done with the assets that were dealt for Lindros. At very least, he could have onto those assets and achieved the same pitiful results, although a blue line featuring Kim Johnnson couldn't have been nearly as sad as 6 pylons that mailed it in nightly in his absence.
wow....infensus.



ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook







anyways, my personal choice....trading kovalev for balej. honestly i woulda rather kept kovy around myself.

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Old
07-17-2007, 05:45 PM
  #62
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id say that the lindros trade was the worst to me because hlavac, johnson, and brendle were either decent players or a prospect in brendles case all traded for a broken down lindros.

kovy for balej im ok with because kovalev just needed to go. kovalev just epitomized the whole no heart lazy attitude that the rangers had until 2 years ago after tha lockout.

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07-17-2007, 05:50 PM
  #63
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Trading Niemenen... he was comedic cold, dammit.

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07-17-2007, 05:51 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Balej20 View Post
If you take away him drafting Jessimen, that means he would have had to have taken ANYONE else that went in the first round, which would have been an upgrade.
I laughed real hard at this one...

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07-17-2007, 05:52 PM
  #65
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Trading Cullen....

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Old
07-17-2007, 05:53 PM
  #66
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Trading Cullen....
infensus disagrees with this.

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07-17-2007, 05:54 PM
  #67
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Trading Cullen....


I hope you're being sarcastic

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07-17-2007, 05:59 PM
  #68
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Lindros. I can't even begin to describe how pissed I was when that trade went down. Hindsight, foresight, it doesn't matter what sight. That was a terrible deal.

You don't trade for a guy who's one hit away from eating peas through a straw for the rest of his life.

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Old
07-17-2007, 06:56 PM
  #69
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infensus disagrees with this.
Signing Matt Cullen and Aaron Ward last year. Oh, wait...already taken care of.

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07-17-2007, 06:57 PM
  #70
Inferno
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Signing Matt Cullen and Aaron Ward last year. Oh, wait...already taken care of.

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Old
07-17-2007, 08:08 PM
  #71
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Ah yes if only they never traded Kim Johnson we would have been a playoff juggernaut in the early 00's.
That's not the point. The trade was supposed to right a fallen franshise. Instead, it made the team worse and prolonged the the pattern of mediocrity that became the Ranger's calling card.

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wow....infensus.



ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook
If he'd been around lately, I guess I'd have an excuse. Sorry 'ferno.

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07-17-2007, 08:09 PM
  #72
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That's not the point. The trade was supposed to right a fallen franshise. Instead, it made the team worse and prolonged the the pattern of mediocrity that became the Ranger's calling card.



If he'd been around lately, I guess I'd have an excuse. Sorry 'ferno.

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Old
07-17-2007, 08:38 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Of course some dink had to bring this one up.

Yeah its his worst move

if i am a dink then that makes you are a stink
because it takes a stink to know whats a dink
so sit back and have a drink and think you stink
the next time you call someone a dink.


my point was if i could undo one thing i choose something from the here and the now not something from the past that could be of no help now.
whats done is done. as much as i loved leetch what would him playing a couple of more years do for example.
i know in 37 years of following this team we always had a player or two that was either a bust or one of those what the hell were they thinking kind of deals.
but during those years in that crappy run there were so many bad deals its like where do you start.

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07-18-2007, 08:03 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyChoice View Post
Ah yes if only they never traded Kim Johnson we would have been a playoff juggernaut in the early 00's.
Spot on Johny Choice... Johnsson has made massive contributions to both Philly and had a great season in Minnesota didnt he? he hasnt been a great player atall. why do people think Kimmy Johnsson was so good? he was a top 4 D man at best and he, a temperamental pick (Brendl) and a decent but not great player (Hlavac) got us a former MVP in Lindros who still managed to have a 37 goal season here in NYC- even with the injury problems.

The Lindros -Fleury -York line was really good for a while and Lindros had some great moments with us.

To the guys calling him the worst Sather deal, thats way too much of an over reaction. Did he achieve what was expected/hoped? no... was he a bomb/bust/disaster... no again. So there was alot worse done than the Lindros deal.

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Old
07-18-2007, 09:47 AM
  #75
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Spot on Johny Choice... Johnsson has made massive contributions to both Philly and had a great season in Minnesota didnt he? he hasnt been a great player atall. why do people think Kimmy Johnsson was so good? he was a top 4 D man at best and he, a temperamental pick (Brendl) and a decent but not great player (Hlavac) got us a former MVP in Lindros who still managed to have a 37 goal season here in NYC- even with the injury problems.
A top four defenseman? When did that become something to sneeze at? Again would you rather have had Johnson or Dave Karpa amd Igor Ulanov?

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