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Official: Cullen to Carolina for D Andrew Hutchinson, F Joe Barnes, 08 3rd

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Old
07-18-2007, 10:13 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I have been thinking about it for the last few hours and have come to the conclusion, that what we did was add 2 3rd rounders basically for a mistake signing.
Could bring back another 3rd rounder when either Pock or Hutchinson is moved in pre-season.

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07-18-2007, 11:18 AM
  #277
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You want offense from 3rd ONLY if your top 6 not scoring. If that is the case, what DRUMEZ signing was for? 3rd line should be a shutdown line. Scoring threat from 3rd is nice, but not required to win big. In a few years Betts will be either an elite shutdown center at best or very good defensive forward at worse. All he needs is to work on bodybuilding since he's got a frame to fill. His hockey skills is not a problem.

Very good post.

The third line is supposed to be a checking line with most teams, it is supposed to be the shutdown line that can match up against the other teams' top line. Renney tends not to use it as such as he does not like to match lines, but that does not mean he does not want a checking line. Betts is suited to becoming a shutdown center who belongs on the third line.

Many people have suggested that Betts is well suited to a fourth line role. There are no players in the NHL that are well suited to a fourth line role. The fourth line is simply supposed to be an energy line and a stopgap that can rest the top three lines while rested. The fourth line is used to break in new rookies who are not ready to take their final roles on top lines or players who have not produced, but still need to get icetime. The fourth line is well suited to breaking in players like Dubinsky, Dawes or even Immonen.

Betts career goal should be to be a shutdown center and play on the checking line. To me, I don't see why we shouldn't give him another opportunity to do so. I would love to see Dubinsky take some deserved icetime in the NHL, but at the same time, it wouldn't hurt to see him playing top line minutes in the AHL this season and see what he can really do with them. The guy who is really suited to the fourth line center role on our team is Jarko Immonen. Keep him in N. America and give him 5 - 8 minutes of icetime on the fourth line and let him prove himself. The guy is very talented, although he does not fit in well with our franchise, but give him a shot and maybe we could trade him to a team that desperately needs an NHL center whose skates do seem to get caught in the mud (Phoenix anyone?)

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07-18-2007, 11:19 AM
  #278
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Joe Barnes

Here is a link to the Saskatoon news sports arcticle talking about Barnes and his move to Broadway.

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarp...f-485d3bfc1063

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07-18-2007, 11:23 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Balej20 View Post
If they don't sign a 3rd line center and don't bring Hossa back, it looks like 2 spots on the forward lines will be open for a youngster. 3rd line center/wing, and 4th line wing. Hopefully Staal is also allowed a chance to compete for a defensive spot...although at the moment, there is no room for him.
I think he has a better chance of winning a top-6 spot then:
Strudwick
Pock
Hutchinson

I also expect a trade coming to clear up space back there...but thats another issue.

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07-18-2007, 12:07 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
Very good post.

The third line is supposed to be a checking line with most teams, it is supposed to be the shutdown line that can match up against the other teams' top line. Renney tends not to use it as such as he does not like to match lines, but that does not mean he does not want a checking line. Betts is suited to becoming a shutdown center who belongs on the third line.

Many people have suggested that Betts is well suited to a fourth line role. There are no players in the NHL that are well suited to a fourth line role. The fourth line is simply supposed to be an energy line and a stopgap that can rest the top three lines while rested. The fourth line is used to break in new rookies who are not ready to take their final roles on top lines or players who have not produced, but still need to get icetime. The fourth line is well suited to breaking in players like Dubinsky, Dawes or even Immonen.

Betts career goal should be to be a shutdown center and play on the checking line. To me, I don't see why we shouldn't give him another opportunity to do so. I would love to see Dubinsky take some deserved icetime in the NHL, but at the same time, it wouldn't hurt to see him playing top line minutes in the AHL this season and see what he can really do with them. The guy who is really suited to the fourth line center role on our team is Jarko Immonen. Keep him in N. America and give him 5 - 8 minutes of icetime on the fourth line and let him prove himself. The guy is very talented, although he does not fit in well with our franchise, but give him a shot and maybe we could trade him to a team that desperately needs an NHL center whose skates do seem to get caught in the mud (Phoenix anyone?)
But when has Renney ever attempted to build a shutdown line? We've had the personnel to do so, but Renney has never even tried. Last year, he could have used Betts as a shutdown center, and guys like Ortmeyer, Hossa, and Ward could have been shutdown wingers. Instead, he started Betts with Hall and Dawes and later moved him down to play with Orr and Hollweg. The previous year, Rucchin or Betts could have been used as a shutdown center while Ortmeyer, Rucinsky, Ward, Moore, or Nieminen could have been shutdown wingers. Again, Renney does not even try it.

Renney has showed us that he doesn't like to match lines. He has said that excessively matching lines is not his style. It's reactionary, and he coaches to have his team dictate the play rather than react to it.

If it's your opinion that we should build a shutdown line, just say it. It's a valid opinion. But don't try to pass it off as something Renney is going to try when everything we've seen the past two years points to the contrary.

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07-18-2007, 01:12 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by GBG BLEED BLUE View Post
Here is a link to the Saskatoon news sports arcticle talking about Barnes and his move to Broadway.

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarp...f-485d3bfc1063
To anybody that didn't believe me about us wanting Barnes in '05, his quote from this article proves it

"It's funny because New York was a team that was really interested in me before the draft when I was 18. Carolina hadn't talked to me, but they took me two picks before the Rangers (were scheduled to pick)."

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07-18-2007, 01:15 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Kodiak View Post
If it's your opinion that we should build a shutdown line, just say it. It's a valid opinion. But don't try to pass it off as something Renney is going to try when everything we've seen the past two years points to the contrary.
Not trying to pass anything off as something Renney would try, just stating that if you are getting good scoring from the top two lines, it is a typical move to make the third line a shutdown line. This should be the first time in Renney's tenure that the Rangers have good scoring from the top two lines on paper, of course. Which would mean I, personally, see no reason he would not make the third line a shutdown line. That still does not mean he needs to match lines, as it is not his style, but as you do not need the additional scoring from the third line, why not try the more traditional route?

I did not state as fact that this is what he was going to try or anything, I simply said this is a possible way to go about organizing the lines. And, it seems, that he might try this.

My main point was also to show that Blair Betts is not "a perfect fourth line center" as some are stating. There is no such thing as a perfect fourth line center, that is typically a rotating job and should not be the ultimate goal for any NHL player. He is not yet a perfect third line center, but I get the feeling that is the way his career is headed.

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07-18-2007, 03:23 PM
  #283
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Looking at our own potential third liners we run into names like Avery, Prucha, Callahan and Hossa. Have to say that all of those guys will be counted on for some offense. What you look for in a third liner are two way players. Callahan and Avery are both great examples of that. Betts is a 4th liner and the fact is we haven't had a real shutdown forward since Holik who we really didn't use in that role. A couple other examples of other shutdown players around the league would be Kris Draper or Jay Pandolfo. Even those players make offensive contributions. Good teams have a diverse attack. Third line is not expected to produce like the top two lines but it should produce something.

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07-18-2007, 03:52 PM
  #284
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I played with Barnes since he first started hockey at age 8 and every year up 14yr old AAA. If there's one thing I can say about him, is that with the right coach and under the right conditions he can really put up the points. His conditioning has always been topnotch. Strong legs, strong shot, and an excellent passer. He was not overly physical when I played with him, but seems to have improved in that regard since.
I do not disagree that given his injury problems he is a bit of wild card - but he is a risk well worth taking.

It's not worth brining Dawes up unless you can get him on at least the third line. It would be a waste to have him playing so little on the fourth, unless he got some PP time. If he stays in the AHL I would love to see him and Barnes play together.

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07-18-2007, 04:00 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Looking at our own potential third liners we run into names like Avery, Prucha, Callahan and Hossa. Have to say that all of those guys will be counted on for some offense. What you look for in a third liner are two way players. Callahan and Avery are both great examples of that. Betts is a 4th liner and the fact is we haven't had a real shutdown forward since Holik who we really didn't use in that role. A couple other examples of other shutdown players around the league would be Kris Draper or Jay Pandolfo. Even those players make offensive contributions. Good teams have a diverse attack. Third line is not expected to produce like the top two lines but it should produce something.
Do you think a third line centered by Dubinsky, with, say, Cally and Avery would be productive?

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07-18-2007, 04:05 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
Not trying to pass anything off as something Renney would try, just stating that if you are getting good scoring from the top two lines, it is a typical move to make the third line a shutdown line. This should be the first time in Renney's tenure that the Rangers have good scoring from the top two lines on paper, of course. Which would mean I, personally, see no reason he would not make the third line a shutdown line. That still does not mean he needs to match lines, as it is not his style, but as you do not need the additional scoring from the third line, why not try the more traditional route?

I did not state as fact that this is what he was going to try or anything, I simply said this is a possible way to go about organizing the lines. And, it seems, that he might try this.

My main point was also to show that Blair Betts is not "a perfect fourth line center" as some are stating. There is no such thing as a perfect fourth line center, that is typically a rotating job and should not be the ultimate goal for any NHL player. He is not yet a perfect third line center, but I get the feeling that is the way his career is headed.
Good to have someone who put my points acurately on. Thanks.

Just to add.
1)Renney has a boss who doesn't believe in line matching. It is not wise to show an open disagreement.
2) Building of the 3rd line commenced two years ago, but Betts as well as Renney watched 3rd line wingers shipped away by Slats. Ward was sent to LA for Avery. Hollweg has never left 4th because Moore was traded for Hall. Instead of moving Hollweg up, Renney finally had Betts demoted to keep them as pair.
As for Cullen, it is safe to say that he's never really centered 3rd line. By all hockey books his line was 4th, not 3rd. While Hollwed -Betts-Orr looked more like 3rd line to me. That is why he was traded. It made sense to do, even if he was making half of his pay.

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07-18-2007, 04:08 PM
  #287
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Do you think a third line centered by Dubinsky, with, say, Cally and Avery would be productive?
That could be a good 2nd or 4th. 3rd line is not to be productive. It must be counterproductive. Callahan and Avery are scorers they have no buiness being on 3rd.

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07-18-2007, 05:11 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
That could be a good 2nd or 4th. 3rd line is not to be productive. It must be counterproductive. Callahan and Avery are scorers they have no buiness being on 3rd.
sorry lindsey, but avery is and should be on the 3rd line. he has some offense, but also is a pest to annoy sid and such....

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07-18-2007, 05:28 PM
  #289
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I played with Barnes since he first started hockey at age 8 and every year up 14yr old AAA. If there's one thing I can say about him, is that with the right coach and under the right conditions he can really put up the points. His conditioning has always been topnotch. Strong legs, strong shot, and an excellent passer. He was not overly physical when I played with him, but seems to have improved in that regard since.
I do not disagree that given his injury problems he is a bit of wild card - but he is a risk well worth taking.

It's not worth brining Dawes up unless you can get him on at least the third line. It would be a waste to have him playing so little on the fourth, unless he got some PP time. If he stays in the AHL I would love to see him and Barnes play together.
Well, unless he suprises in camp, it doesnt look like Dawes will make the team

So it should be interesting possibly seeing Dawes and Barnes as linemates

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07-18-2007, 05:52 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Do you think a third line centered by Dubinsky, with, say, Cally and Avery would be productive?

Schoenfeld's comments on Dubinsky were that he might away for the summer and find when he comes back that things he worked on all last season in Hartford that he didn't quite get--might--come naturally now. So Dubinsky may be ready to make the team--then again he may need more time in Hartford. My guess is he'll challenge for a spot--that is unless the Rangers sign Peca or something of the like--but that just as likely he'll need to spend another half or even the whole season in Hartford. If he makes it out of training camp 3rd line seems to be the spot he'll take. As to how he'll work with Cally and Avery or whoever are his linemates--hopefully of course he would do well. He has more offensive talent than Betts does for sure. Blair has 6 assists in two full seasons with us and I don't buy this they keep trading his wingers argument as to why he lacks creativity with the puck. He's had not only time on the third line but on the second as well in both his seasons here. Dubinsky is as big as Betts or close enough and he's more aggressive by far. To me Brandon has two issues--while 40 some points in the AHL as a rookie is pretty good--he should be capable of more in that league. The second issue would be overall strength--and in his 6 or so games with us last year he seemed to be knocked around and off his skates a little too much--keeping in mind that he's still very young.

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07-18-2007, 06:33 PM
  #291
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That could be a good 2nd or 4th. 3rd line is not to be productive. It must be counterproductive. Callahan and Avery are scorers they have no buiness being on 3rd.
I don't really consider Cally or Avery scorers. They have scoring touch for sure, but the biggest asset they possess- IMO- is that they grind, bang and play responsible defensively. That they can chip in goals too is a bonus. Avery-Dubinsky-Callahan seems like an ideal third line to me- capable of shutting an opposing line down, agitating them and throwing them off their game, PLUS contributing offensively.

Let's not take the approach that "a third line must play like this" and rather structure our lines around the personnel we have and maximize everyone's abilities.

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07-18-2007, 11:24 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
You want offense from 3rd ONLY if your top 6 not scoring.
Not really. You want some offense from your third line, no matter what the top-2 lines are doing.
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In a few years Betts will be either an elite shutdown center at best or very good defensive forward at worse.
Overdoing it a bit, no? Betts is what he is but let's not make him into a Madden. He is a good 4th line role player. Nothing more.

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07-18-2007, 11:28 PM
  #293
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I've read through most of the eight pages and I frequently come across agruments for chemistry.
Upon further review, I do not know if it is so much "chemistry" but rather having the possibility of having 3 new centers for the top-3 lines.

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07-19-2007, 12:00 AM
  #294
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Upon further review, I do not know if it is so much "chemistry" but rather having the possibility of having 3 new centers for the top-3 lines.
I hear you in theory, but... our centers are what let us down last year. Outside of Nylander who worked well with Jags (but let's face it was a decent 2nd line center when he played with non-world-class talent previous to being paired with Jaromir and is gettin' up there in years), we were always outmatched at the pivot against the better teams. I am really excited to see what last year's group PLUS improved centers can do... (Even if it is three new centers at the same time.)

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07-19-2007, 08:26 AM
  #295
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I hear you in theory, but... our centers are what let us down last year. Outside of Nylander who worked well with Jags (but let's face it was a decent 2nd line center when he played with non-world-class talent previous to being paired with Jaromir and is gettin' up there in years), we were always outmatched at the pivot against the better teams. I am really excited to see what last year's group PLUS improved centers can do... (Even if it is three new centers at the same time.)
I agree.

It's ridiculous how freakin' Chris Drury is seen as part of a potential problem towards team chemistry.

We will be fine.

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07-19-2007, 10:39 AM
  #296
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I don't think off-ice chemistry will be a problem, but much of our success late last season, and we had a extremely good finnish to the season -- best of all teams in the enitre leauge the last quater which is pretty darn good, came because we played well tactically.

It takes time to install a system, to get a team well oiled. And in a system a center got probably the biggest role. D's needs to know how the centers want the puck ect. All this takes time. We defenitly would have been a better team this season, if Drury and Gomez would have played for us last season and developed chemistry with everyone.

The marginals aren't that big, we have replaced Nyls and Cullen with Gomez and Drury. There is a risk involved here IMO. Its hard to know at this stage exactly how everyone will react with each other, there could be some problems.

I don't think we will miss the PO's or something like that. But we are a fragile team with allot of older vets, allot of ups and downs during the season could take away allot of energy come PO time. I do think that we will need a comfortable ride through the the regular season inorder to have a shot at achiveing something in the PO's. Last season our PO's started with 30 games to go, that defenitly cost us against Buffalo, and would have really shown if we would have advanced and played against Ottawa...

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07-19-2007, 11:12 AM
  #297
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sorry lindsey, but avery is and should be on the 3rd line. he has some offense, but also is a pest to annoy sid and such....
Ahh, yea... I think he could be Sid annoyance , but aren't they both LW? In this case they'd rarely see each other... Before Avery is demoted to 3rd, I'd like give him a chance to establish himself as our 2LW

Prucha-Straka-Jarg
Avery-Drury-Gomez
Shanahan-Betts-Hossa
Hollweg-Dubinski-Orr

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07-19-2007, 11:31 AM
  #298
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Ahh, yea... I think he could be Sid annoyance , but aren't they both LW? In this case they'd rarely see each other... Before Avery is demoted to 3rd, I'd like give him a chance to establish himself as our 2LW

Prucha-Straka-Jarg
Avery-Drury-Gomez
Shanahan-Betts-Hossa
Hollweg-Dubinski-Orr
You don't think Callahan should be on the team?

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07-19-2007, 12:37 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Ahh, yea... I think he could be Sid annoyance , but aren't they both LW? In this case they'd rarely see each other... Before Avery is demoted to 3rd, I'd like give him a chance to establish himself as our 2LW

Prucha-Straka-Jarg
Avery-Drury-Gomez
Shanahan-Betts-Hossa
Hollweg-Dubinski-Orr

Wait a minute, you want Prucha on the first line along with Straka who is a much better winger, Drury and Gomez two centers playing on the 2nd line? Plus Shanahan on a checking line? I'm sorry those line combos make no sense at all.

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07-19-2007, 01:00 PM
  #300
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Wait a minute, you want Prucha on the first line along with Straka who is a much better winger, Drury and Gomez two centers playing on the 2nd line? Plus Shanahan on a checking line? I'm sorry those line combos make no sense at all.
It is my prediction how it will end up being after neither Drury or Gomez will prove be able to do Nylander's job.
Callahan is scratched. He must be there, but only if plays on PK. Otherwise it's Orr or whoever... Last year Shanny's signing made Prucha expandable. This year DRUMES will effect Callahan. Sorry, that's what Slats do. Good thing is that he traded Cullen...

If Callahan on PK, then Prucha is out

Hossa-Straka-Jagr
Avery-Drury-Gomez
Shanahan-Betts-Callahan
Hollweg-Dubi-Orr


Last edited by 94now: 07-19-2007 at 01:06 PM.
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