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Will the PK suffer with Orty gone?

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Old
07-18-2007, 06:13 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
what are you saying? it's incomprehensible.

which of the guys on my list (either one) are you saying that Jed Ortmeyer is better than?
YOU CANT COMPARE ORTMEYER TO DRURY AND GOMEZ. I SAID ORTMEYER WAS THE SEVENTH PLAYER ON THAT LIST AND WE HAD DRURY AND GOMEZ FOR 2 WEEKS. tytuin shouldn't be that high. look at my list the only guy you think shouldn't be there is ortmeyer. your list doesn't make sense.

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07-18-2007, 06:20 PM
  #102
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i think i covered my points about straka on even strength and power play. i do like him but i thought he was inconsistent. he spent more time on the pk in the playoffs where renny went with more playoff experienced guys. it shows renny went that way. why would a guy who is a consistent pker in the season be 10th among players in sh time. renny went a different way.
Renney went the way of cutting ice time to his best PKer in the most significant games?

The "inconsistent" Straka scored 29 goals last season in 77 games, and played about 15 with one arm. I think it's safe to say he would've gotten 30 if not for the injury. And had 10 points in 10 games in the playoffs.
Saying Ortmeyer was worth more to the Rangers than Straka is... Well... Ridiculous.
Look, I really do appreciate 4th liners/PK guys... But there's only so much they bring to a team and there's a reason why they're paid less than guys who play more.

I don't really care to be honest, I like the Rangers, but Buffalo's my team, not gonna get into any deep arguments or anything... But in terms of importance to the Rangers in the last season and POs, I'd rank:
Jagr, Lundqvist, Nylander, Rozsival, Straka, Shanahan, Avery, Malik, Cullen, Tyutin, Girardi, Malik, Betts (really same role as Ortmeyer, but he's was the team's best faceoff guy)... Renney doesn't give Prucha real quality ES time, but I'd rank him above Ortmeyer as well. And Mara, who played pretty decent after the trade, and played ES, 2nd PP unit and 2nd PK unit time.

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07-18-2007, 06:25 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
YOU CANT COMPARE ORTMEYER TO DRURY AND GOMEZ. I SAID ORTMEYER WAS THE SEVENTH PLAYER ON THAT LIST AND WE HAD DRURY AND GOMEZ FOR 2 WEEKS. tytuin shouldn't be that high. look at my list the only guy you think shouldn't be there is ortmeyer. your list doesn't make sense.
I eliminated Drury and Gomez from my second list because you seem to want to talk about last year and not this year. Ok, I'm fine with that. So strike those two and add Nylander and Avery. That's still 7 guys and no Jed.

You think Jed Ortmeyer is a better player than Fedor Tyutin? Care to explain why?

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07-18-2007, 06:53 PM
  #104
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Renney went the way of cutting ice time to his best PKer in the most significant games?

The "inconsistent" Straka scored 29 goals last season in 77 games, and played about 15 with one arm. I think it's safe to say he would've gotten 30 if not for the injury. And had 10 points in 10 games in the playoffs.
Saying Ortmeyer was worth more to the Rangers than Straka is... Well... Ridiculous.
Look, I really do appreciate 4th liners/PK guys... But there's only so much they bring to a team and there's a reason why they're paid less than guys who play more.

I don't really care to be honest, I like the Rangers, but Buffalo's my team, not gonna get into any deep arguments or anything... But in terms of importance to the Rangers in the last season and POs, I'd rank:
Jagr, Lundqvist, Nylander, Rozsival, Straka, Shanahan, Avery, Malik, Cullen, Tyutin, Girardi, Malik, Betts (really same role as Ortmeyer, but he's was the team's best faceoff guy)... Renney doesn't give Prucha real quality ES time, but I'd rank him above Ortmeyer as well. And Mara, who played pretty decent after the trade, and played ES, 2nd PP unit and 2nd PK unit time.
i made my points about what i think of straka last year. yes renny did cut his best pkers ice time in the most significant of games. what do you want me to say he didn't? renny did a lot of things differently vs buffalo. like calling up nigel dawes who didn't play since november to play on the second line in game 6. you make a list of guys better than ortmeyer based on goal scorers. my whole point has been there is more to a team than just goal scoring. did you follow the rangers at all between 97 and 04? we had goal scorers and we went no where. once again goal scoring isn't everything. malik and tytuin i disagree with and i disagree with cullen because he could have been that second line center in game 6 but that didn't happen at all. i'm not trying to say that straka is a bad player i just have a different spot for him in my list.


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07-18-2007, 07:17 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
thats fine i stopped taking you seriously when you brought up the devils. i would have put tyutin on before girardi and cullen before callahan. hell i would have put prucha on before callahan and down the stretch i would have put hossa in front of callahan. with ortmeyer you get consistency you know what to expect from him. straka will get hot for 2 weeks out of the year and then all of a sudden ice cold. he had 22 goals on the year. he would score 6 one week 5 in another and then spread out the difference throught the rest of the year. and this is a guy who gets power play time and plays with jagr or shanny. how many times was someone else playing on that first line? even isbister played there. not that consistent is my point and thats why i bumped him down. if he was playing on the first line every night and wasn't as streaky goal scoring wise i would agree with you. he would be number 7 jed number 8. but that isn't the case. not everyone has to score to be important. that wasn't ortmeyers role. if we lost a 1 goal game no body says where was ortmeyer. but in a game where we take 7-10 penalties and kill off all of them it comes back to the penalty kill. and who was our best pker ortmeyer. we never won any games in the playoffs because of straka. there were a bunch of times against buffalo the kill came up big especially in game 3. they give up more than one goal on the kill we lose that game. not to mention that the refs were screwing us on penalties and they were out there so many times. you may look at things differently but i like consistency and clutch performances. thats what ortmeyer gave us especially on the pk.
You are arguing that Orts was more valuable than Straka and you want to be taken seriously?

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07-18-2007, 07:30 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I eliminated Drury and Gomez from my second list because you seem to want to talk about last year and not this year. Ok, I'm fine with that. So strike those two and add Nylander and Avery. That's still 7 guys and no Jed.

You think Jed Ortmeyer is a better player than Fedor Tyutin? Care to explain why?
look tytuin puts some points on the board but not so much. better defensemen have been rozsival and malik (not offensivley). during a game ortmeyer makes more of an impact than tytuin. he is more of a defensive defensmen becasue the offense hasn't been there. last year in the playoffs ortmeyer had three hits and one blocked shot in 5:29 of total icetime on May 6 vs. Buffalo, three blocked shots and two hits in 10:03 of total icetime on May 4 at Buffalo, tied a game-high with seven hits on Apr. 29 vs. Buffalo after not dressing on Apr. 27, ranked sixth on the Rangers in hits (88) in 2006-07 in just 41 games. the guy was a madman. and he was part of an awesome energy line did you ever see im battling for pucks in the corners? he was crazy

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07-18-2007, 07:31 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You are arguing that Orts was more valuable than Straka and you want to be taken seriously?
how many times do i have to say goal scoring isn't everything this is a guy that played with jagr for most of the season. jagr got about 10 goals out of hossa, and straka gets pp time. if you think goal scoring is everything than fine, i guess we should have made the playoffs those seven years before the lockout, because we had gretzky, leetch, bure, lindros, fleury, kovalev, and countless other money makers that were 30+ goal scorers its guys like ortmeyer that do all the other things that make a successful team. if you think straka is better fine this thread wasn't about who was better straka or ortmeyer. i don't care if you think straka is better. i just look at it differently than you.


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07-18-2007, 07:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
look tytuin puts some points on the board but not so much. better defensemen have been rozsival and malik (not offensivley). during a game ortmeyer makes more of an impact than tytuin. he is more of a defensive defensmen becasue the offense hasn't been there. last year in the playoffs ortmeyer had three hits and one blocked shot in 5:29 of total icetime on May 6 vs. Buffalo, three blocked shots and two hits in 10:03 of total icetime on May 4 at Buffalo, tied a game-high with seven hits on Apr. 29 vs. Buffalo after not dressing on Apr. 27, ranked sixth on the Rangers in hits (88) in 2006-07 in just 41 games. the guy was a madman. and he was part of an awesome energy line did you ever see im battling for pucks in the corners? he was crazy
I find it odd that when comparing Orts to Straka you say that goals aren't everything, yet when you compare him to Tyutin you complain that his offense hasn't been there. Do you think there's a reason why Jed only gets 6 minutes of total ice time? Tyutin is a 2nd line defense pair guy, with even slightly higher potential...he could become a #2. But let's just say he's a career #3 guy for the moment. Do you really think that a 4th line energy guy like Jed (which is pretty much his max potential) is more important to a team than a solid #3 defenseman?

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07-18-2007, 07:45 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I find it odd that when comparing Orts to Straka you say that goals aren't everything, yet when you compare him to Tyutin you complain that his offense hasn't been there. Do you think there's a reason why Jed only gets 6 minutes of total ice time? Tyutin is a 2nd line defense pair guy, with even slightly higher potential...he could become a #2. But let's just say he's a career #3 guy for the moment. Do you really think that a 4th line energy guy like Jed (which is pretty much his max potential) is more important to a team than a solid #3 defenseman?
i'm saying tytuin is a good defenseive defensemen its not like he is leetch. you have to look at what the 4th line offers. last 2 seasons blair betts was our best face off guy. where does he play... on the fourth line, but since he is on the 4th line i guess he is not important. when you look and pinpoint tytuins highlights during a game, besides maybe getting a power play goal ortmeyer stands out more.

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07-18-2007, 08:01 PM
  #110
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Let me break it down for you....the penalty killing unit will be fine. They will adjust to not having Orts out there flopping around the ice and blocking shots. Someone else will pick up where he left off...GUARANTEED! There have been PLENTY of players TRADED...never mind signed away through FA that wore a Ranger uniform and were better than Ortmeyer...like I said...loved his effort...loved his heart and desire, but he was not critical to this teams success last season...and he is no longer the figurehead needed to motivate the kids in Hartford. Hopefully they all know by now that to make it you have to be willing to give 100% and sacrifice your body on occasion....

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07-18-2007, 08:01 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
i'm saying tytuin is a good defenseive defensemen its not like he is leetch. you have to look at what the 4th line offers. last 2 seasons blair betts was our best face off guy. where does he play... on the fourth line, but since he is on the 4th line i guess he is not important. when you look and pinpoint tytuins highlights during a game, besides maybe getting a power play goal ortmeyer stands out more.
A defensive defenseman doesn't have to stand out to have importance to the team. He just has to play solid positional defense. Simply looking at highlights isn't always going to indicate who is the better player. I'm pretty certain the overwhelming majority of Ranger and hockey fans would agree that Fedor is the more important player on the Rangers.

And as far as Blair Betts is concerned, no he is not one of our best guys. That doesn't mean he too is without a role. But he, like Jed, is another guy who may have to start looking over his shoulder at some point. Fortunately for him, he is cap friendly, excellent at faceoffs, and responsible defensively. But like Jed, Blair will never be much more than a 4th line player.

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07-18-2007, 08:09 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by bleedrngrblue View Post
Let me break it down for you....the penalty killing unit will be fine. They will adjust to not having Orts out there flopping around the ice and blocking shots. Someone else will pick up where he left off...GUARANTEED! There have been PLENTY of players TRADED...never mind signed away through FA that wore a Ranger uniform and were better than Ortmeyer...like I said...loved his effort...loved his heart and desire, but he was not critical to this teams success last season...and he is no longer the figurehead needed to motivate the kids in Hartford. Hopefully they all know by now that to make it you have to be willing to give 100% and sacrifice your body on occasion....
i have said the pk will be ok not better but fine. i can't believe that people are not giving him credit for helping transform this team. especially in the 05 06 season. all everybody says is they loved his effort. but they are so quick to forget what he did. yes its been said that he blocks shots, provides energy and hits. but he did more than that. jd said he was a future captain that has to count for something.

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07-18-2007, 08:15 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
A defensive defenseman doesn't have to stand out to have importance to the team. He just has to play solid positional defense. Simply looking at highlights isn't always going to indicate who is the better player. I'm pretty certain the overwhelming majority of Ranger and hockey fans would agree that Fedor is the more important player on the Rangers.

And as far as Blair Betts is concerned, no he is not one of our best guys. That doesn't mean he too is without a role. But he, like Jed, is another guy who may have to start looking over his shoulder at some point. Fortunately for him, he is cap friendly, excellent at faceoffs, and responsible defensively. But like Jed, Blair will never be much more than a 4th line player.
your right betts isn't one of our best guys. but he is our best face off guy. you are ok with not bringing back our best pker and you are already talking about getting rid of our best face off man. why not trade jagr next season too? he is our best player. makes sense right? a really good penalty killer and an awesome face off man, yea thats something we don't want. i still think that ortmeyer is the 7th guy on my list and there are a bunch of other guys i would put in front of tytuin, cullen(when he was still a ranger) for example and i am a tytuin fan. if at best tytuin is a 2nd line dman, like you said, should he be looking over his shoulder? i mean he could be better right? what if he never gets better but stays the way he is? does that mean he is not important? would you be ok with getting rid of him?


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07-18-2007, 08:25 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
your right betts isn't one of our best guys. but he is our best face off guy. you are ok with not bringing back our best pker and you are already talking about getting rid of our best face off man. why not trade jagr next season too? he is our best player. makes sense right? a really good penalty killer and an awesome face off man, yea thats something we don't want. i still think that ortmeyer is the 7th guy on my list and there are a bunch of other guys i would put in front of tytuin, cullen(when he was still a ranger) for example and i am a tytuin fan.
actually i would consider trading Jagr if the return was right. but that's probably not going to happen. but i'm not sure how you can segway from me saying Betts is going to get challenged by some talented younger guys in the near future to we should trade our best player. since it's your list you can keep Orts at whatever spot you want. but that doesn't make it reality. he is a marginal player on any above average team. we all loved his heart and desire to give himself up for the team every night. but now the organization is in a different place, and he is no longer a necessary piece of the puzzle.

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07-18-2007, 08:37 PM
  #115
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actually i would consider trading Jagr if the return was right. but that's probably not going to happen. but i'm not sure how you can segway from me saying Betts is going to get challenged by some talented younger guys in the near future to we should trade our best player. since it's your list you can keep Orts at whatever spot you want. but that doesn't make it reality. he is a marginal player on any above average team. we all loved his heart and desire to give himself up for the team every night. but now the organization is in a different place, and he is no longer a necessary piece of the puzzle.
no you don't trade jagr. however i wouldn't put anything past sather. my point with betts was it sounds like you don't care about him because he is a 4th liner. my point with jagr was if we are ok with letting our best pker go and you don't think our best face off man is anything special than what is jagr. i was being sarcastic when i said trade him. for some reason you like the idea. look this is my last post regarding ortmeyer unless somebody replies to something i have said. i think the rangers are capable of winning the cup this year. they should be a favorite. i'm simply saying to everyone don't forget what he did for us and what he gave us. this all started with my first post and now is getting off topic. he was a great ranger and anybody that thinks otherwise wasn't a fan in between 97 and 04.

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07-18-2007, 11:19 PM
  #116
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Orty was a role player, his leaving means alot. He did his job well. All successful teams have role players. I want a guy on the ice who plays D and has stamina and is not looking for a 10 percent chance to intercept a pass for a breakway. They are not dime a dozen.

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07-18-2007, 11:24 PM
  #117
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I'm willing to bet it won't hurt the PK at all. Orts wasn't even as good at the PK this year in comparison to the year before, IMHO. He messed up quite a bit out there -- partly because of getting back into the flow, but it's not like he was the MAIN cog in the PK last year as far as I'm concerned.
I love how people make itl ike guys have never been on a PK in their lives. You guys seriously dont think Gomez can kill penalties? Also guys like Callahan and Prucha are good PKers

Its a penalty kill, not brain surgery. If you have decent PKers that mesh as a unit, it really doesnt matter if Ortmeyer is there or not.

The PK will not suffer at all. My list of PKers:
Shanny
Betts
Hossa (If signed)
Straka
Avery
Callahan
Prucha
Drury
Whoever our 3rd line center is

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07-18-2007, 11:46 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogrodnick View Post
Both Drury and Gomez are excellent penalty killers. Throw in Straka, Betts, Avery and Cullen and we'll be fine.
When did Gomez ever have a position on or near the PK?

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07-19-2007, 01:26 AM
  #119
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Shanahan should not be used on the PK. Renney has said he wants to keep him fresh for even strength, pp, and late game situations.

As for the PK, losing Orts and Cullen are both big blows, however Drury is the best of the 3 and is a way better faceoff man than Cullen, so winning it back to the D and clearing the puck off the glass is something we'll see more of. Betts, the best faceoff man on this team will kill penalties, I just hope away from Drury, so that we have 2 units who can gain initial possession of the puck.

Callahan should see a bigger role this year, as he now has NHL experience under his belt, and i think Renney will give him the challenge. Renney has always seeked accountability on his players, and Callahan IMO is aware enough to kill penalties at his age at this level.

The way i would like to see it is

Betts/Avery
Drury/Callahan
Hossa as the 5th PKer (is a very alert player, can use on either unit to spell one of the top 4.

Straka as a 6th PKer used very sparingly, I feel conserving his legs will help him later in the game freshness wise. I understand he has speed and has the capabilty to pick up the puck and blow by the D, but this team has enough offense to get it done 5 on 5, just kill the penalties. Also with that shoulder, especially early in the season, keep him off the PK and he'll be less prone to any contact.


Defensively

Rozy/Malik (who is a very solid penalty killer. gets in the way of shots using that reach to get the puck out of the zone. I would also use Staal (if on the team) to spare Rozy, if not even get more time on the PK to spell Rozy for even strength/PP being that he will see almost 30 minutes a night.

Tyutin/Girardi - let them keep it simple and gain more time together. I feel playing 2 young players together makes sense, they'll learn from each other's mistakes. Growing pains are part of carrying young players IMO

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07-19-2007, 04:22 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by motime42 View Post
I love how people make itl ike guys have never been on a PK in their lives. You guys seriously dont think Gomez can kill penalties? Also guys like Callahan and Prucha are good PKers

Its a penalty kill, not brain surgery. If you have decent PKers that mesh as a unit, it really doesnt matter if Ortmeyer is there or not.

The PK will not suffer at all. My list of PKers:
Shanny
Betts
Hossa (If signed)
Straka
Avery
Callahan
Prucha
Drury
Whoever our 3rd line center is
Funny that.

You just diss a guy for saying Gomez kills penalties,
Then you say Prucha is a goiod PKer.
He's never played on the PK at a high level of competition.

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07-19-2007, 07:23 AM
  #121
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A good PK team is almost like brain surgery. They really need to work together, and want to stop the puck. That Effort is not what you get from most star players or goal scorers. Orty and Betts know that the PK is their time to shine. They give 110 percent

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07-19-2007, 08:01 AM
  #122
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A good PK team...

has a great goaltender. I'd be interesting to see what the PK looked like when Lundqvist wasn't on his game, compared to when he was on his game.

Pking is not brain surgery and a great PKer dosn't necessarily have to be a Selke winner. It's about clogging the passing lanes, clearing the front of the net and not letting shots through. Some are better than others, but OK PKers with a great goaltender would make a very good PK team.

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07-19-2007, 10:21 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
you've been a ranger fan for 20 years congratulations. jed may not put points on the board but besides jagr and henrik the best part of the last two seasons was the penalty kill. ortmeyer always stood out. he provides energy, hits and the heart that the fans loved, except you i guess. we will not see shots blocked like that this year. and what was the reason that we made a second half surge. i will give it to you ortmeyer coming back and avery. whether you like it or not we let one of our best players go.


one of our best players? are you actually being serious?

yes, Ortmeyer had heart, but IMO that's about all he had. a future captain? the guy couldn't score a goal on an empty net from three feet out.

yes, he'll be missed, but off the ice, not on it. Jed on the PK v Drury on the PK, wouldn't you rather have someone on the PK that can net a shorthanded goal every now and again? apparently not. don't you remember the Buffalo series that ended our season? I can still picture Drury on the PK dropping down in front of Miller blocking shots. I remember one instance vividly when he actually made a kick-save, the puck never got to the net.

Jed's 'return' had absolutely nothing to do with the surge. if you truly believe that, I pity you.

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07-19-2007, 12:39 PM
  #124
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one of our best players? are you actually being serious?

yes, Ortmeyer had heart, but IMO that's about all he had. a future captain? the guy couldn't score a goal on an empty net from three feet out.

yes, he'll be missed, but off the ice, not on it. Jed on the PK v Drury on the PK, wouldn't you rather have someone on the PK that can net a shorthanded goal every now and again? apparently not. don't you remember the Buffalo series that ended our season? I can still picture Drury on the PK dropping down in front of Miller blocking shots. I remember one instance vividly when he actually made a kick-save, the puck never got to the net.

Jed's 'return' had absolutely nothing to do with the surge. if you truly believe that, I pity you.
first and foremost the pk is there to kill penalties. drury will be out there to kill penalties. not score short handed goals. he will probably get some, but if ortmeyer was still on the team do you think he wouldn't be out there because drury will be? yeah jeds awesome effort didn't help at all. you've got to be kidding. everyone puts on extra effort because they see what ortmeyer does. whether its killing penalties, battling for pucks in the corners and laying out some good hits. yeah that has nothing to do with why we played better. you like most people don't give him credit because he is a 3rd or 4th liner. there is more to it than points. you prove my point when you bring up he shouldn't be captain because he cant score a goal. you don't become a captain because you can score, you become a captain because of LEADERSHIP respond to this because no one else has in my other replies: if goal scoring is so important and determines the value of great players and what they mean to a team how come with guys like lindros, bure, fleury, kovalev, leetch, jagr, nedved (30 goal scorer) anson carter (20 - 30 goal scorer) couldn't get us in the playoffs? a lot of these guys played for the rangers all at the same time. it was some of the worst hockey i've seen. don't give me chemistry was bad because that shouldn't matter to you. if they can score thats all that matters to you.


Last edited by chip chipperson*: 07-19-2007 at 12:44 PM.
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07-19-2007, 01:52 PM
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bleedrngrblue
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
first and foremost the pk is there to kill penalties. drury will be out there to kill penalties. not score short handed goals. he will probably get some, but if ortmeyer was still on the team do you think he wouldn't be out there because drury will be? yeah jeds awesome effort didn't help at all. you've got to be kidding. everyone puts on extra effort because they see what ortmeyer does. whether its killing penalties, battling for pucks in the corners and laying out some good hits. yeah that has nothing to do with why we played better. you like most people don't give him credit because he is a 3rd or 4th liner. there is more to it than points. you prove my point when you bring up he shouldn't be captain because he cant score a goal. you don't become a captain because you can score, you become a captain because of LEADERSHIP respond to this because no one else has in my other replies: if goal scoring is so important and determines the value of great players and what they mean to a team how come with guys like lindros, bure, fleury, kovalev, leetch, jagr, nedved (30 goal scorer) anson carter (20 - 30 goal scorer) couldn't get us in the playoffs? a lot of these guys played for the rangers all at the same time. it was some of the worst hockey i've seen. don't give me chemistry was bad because that shouldn't matter to you. if they can score thats all that matters to you.
Exactly what LEADERSHIP has Ortmeyer shown. Blocking shots isn't leadership.....missing wide open nets isn't leadership, he didn't lead...he set an example of how to carve out a nice little NHL career on guts and hustle! I give Jed all the credit in the world for that, it takes some guts to get in front of alot of those shots, but you are trying to put him on a level he CLEARLY was never on!

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