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From bad to worse in CHI - Sutter and Arnason throw down?

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Old
03-06-2004, 06:31 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I have absolutely no problem with what happened there. Coaches used to do that all the time. Some still do.

Are you folks oversensitive, rosy-types or what? This isn't a high school chest tournament, guys. It's a men's sport. Arnason is 24, I think. He's a freaking grown up and should be able to take that. Sutter is 100% right that he is too laid back.

Pat Burns has had several altercations through the years with players and nobody who cares about this sport and knows what it's about gives a crap about it. That's part of hockey, especially at the NHL level. Some coaches are harsher than others and some players need that kick in the ass.

Sutter is a 5 foot 11, 50 years old guy. What are you guys going to do if Arnason gets in a fight with Donald Brashear? Raise your purses in anger and demand a trial for attempted murder? Gimme a break.

When a team is losing constantly, those types of things tend to happen. This time, it was unfortunately in public. Which is apparently a mistake in these politically correct days where some fans seem to wear pink skirts and shed tears the minute someone is given some ****.
Its not alright .
The reason is that it then should be fair game for the player to take the guy up on his challenge & kick the crap out of him. But its not fair game, cause any player who did it would make a terrible career move .
All Sutter is doing if the reports are true is acting like the tough guy when he knows that his hollow challenge cant be taken up. Its a cowardly act by a desperate coach who apparently is running out of ways to effectivly coach & motivate his players.

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03-06-2004, 08:18 PM
  #27
ColdSteelOnIce
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I agree with Sammy.

Brian Sutter attacks a player, it's "motivation." When Latrell Sprewell attacked his coach, who was by all means a terrible NBA coach, it's insubordination, and furthermore, there's something wrong with him mentally.

Nice double standard we got going here.

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Old
03-06-2004, 10:03 PM
  #28
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
Its not alright .
The reason is that it then should be fair game for the player to take the guy up on his challenge & kick the crap out of him. But its not fair game, cause any player who did it would make a terrible career move .
All Sutter is doing if the reports are true is acting like the tough guy when he knows that his hollow challenge cant be taken up. Its a cowardly act by a desperate coach who apparently is running out of ways to effectivly coach & motivate his players.
You can be sure that there's a long list of coaches who have pulled this "cowardly act" then. Several of them Hall of Famers and many of them not desperate at all.

I understand how you see it, but the goal ain't for Arnason to fight back at Sutter. It's to get the best out of him on the ice, get some emotion out of him.

The rougher coach/player stuff is something that is disappearing from hockey but I'm not sure I'm happy about it. I'd be uncomfortable if we were talking about kids but these are adults, and the situations they face during games are incredible.

It's textbook coaching. Intimidation, fear and manipulation are tactics that legends such as Scotty Bowman have used numerous times.

You are completely right, though. It does suggest that Sutter is running out of ways to coach and motivate this team. Never been terribly impressed with him but looking at this sad roster, I can see why he'd be running out of ideas :p

The only thing that is remarkable in this incident is that it happened publically. You can bet your ass this stuff happens from time to time in various lockerroom. The CHL Olympiques were honoring Pat Burns recently. I saw an interview with a former player of his who said the players were scared ****less of Burns and he'd go maniac at everybodyt or sometimes a guy in particular. The former player was smiling while saying that and he also said Burns was an outstanding coach. And we're talking about junior players. Something I am not really all that comfortable with.

This stuff happens. And it's a part of coaching in a competitive, agressive sport.

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Old
03-06-2004, 11:12 PM
  #29
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Yeah, but it's also something you do with some players and you don't do with others. Some take it and try to come back at you with play on the field, then it works. Some will resent you for it. But it is a tactic that has been used, you are right. It just depends on the player and how they respond and rise up.

Chicago people, have you heard anything lately about this. Any rumors circulating? I know you probably don't hear much about the Hawks from the news and such, but I still wonder.


...I'd really like to see the Pens pick him up on Tuesday. Just a pipe dream.

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Old
03-06-2004, 11:22 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VO #23
Yikes.

Inexecusable if it is in fact true. How much lower can this organization get?

I know it's been said a million times, but I really feel for Hawks fans, all six of them.
I am not excusing what Sutter did, that stuff should be taken care of in house and shouldnt reach the point where it becomes a confrontation. However Arneson deserves some blame here.

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Old
03-06-2004, 11:24 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
You can be sure that there's a long list of coaches who have pulled this "cowardly act" then. Several of them Hall of Famers and many of them not desperate at all.

I understand how you see it, but the goal ain't for Arnason to fight back at Sutter. It's to get the best out of him on the ice, get some emotion out of him.

The rougher coach/player stuff is something that is disappearing from hockey but I'm not sure I'm happy about it. I'd be uncomfortable if we were talking about kids but these are adults, and the situations they face during games are incredible.

It's textbook coaching. Intimidation, fear and manipulation are tactics that legends such as Scotty Bowman have used numerous times.

You are completely right, though. It does suggest that Sutter is running out of ways to coach and motivate this team. Never been terribly impressed with him but looking at this sad roster, I can see why he'd be running out of ideas :p

The only thing that is remarkable in this incident is that it happened publically. You can bet your ass this stuff happens from time to time in various lockerroom. The CHL Olympiques were honoring Pat Burns recently. I saw an interview with a former player of his who said the players were scared ****less of Burns and he'd go maniac at everybodyt or sometimes a guy in particular. The former player was smiling while saying that and he also said Burns was an outstanding coach. And we're talking about junior players. Something I am not really all that comfortable with.

This stuff happens. And it's a part of coaching in a competitive, agressive sport.
I guess my question then is, is it fine for the player to kick the coaches ass?
And I do know how a lotta coaches coach & motivate, but I also know its not standard operating procedure to challenge a player to a fight,. & outside a bar no less, with whatever that entails.

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Old
03-06-2004, 11:27 PM
  #32
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Teams don't trade their top young players because of coach-player disagreements. Arnason will not be going anywhere. As for Sutter, he has little enough to work with and he'll be damned if he's going to let the few talented young players he has at his disposal play at less than their potential, or only when they feel like it. As for potential repercussions for Sutter... do you really believe in your heart of hearts that Bill Wirtz fundamentally disagrees with Sutter's methods? Sutter preaches a stereotypical Hawks brand of hockey: Blackhawks aren't permitted to get away with playing at less than full tilt, all the time. The team may not be stacked with talent and it may not retain what talented players it does have when they reach their UFA years, but they are going to work harder than the other team. Franchise Hawks players are going to learn that if it kills them, and if Sutter has to crack a few skulls to send that message, I can't see Wirtz disagreeing with that philosophy. It's how he would coach.

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Old
03-07-2004, 12:24 AM
  #33
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How does Arnason "deserve it"?

Sutter hasn't even had 1 good season here in chicago. his style motivated guys for 1/2 of 1 season. That was it. Then everyone tuned him out.

Sutter *cost* arnason the Calder trophy IMO, by playing him on the 4th line after the columbus incident(instead of with Daze/Sully where he would have doubled his point output).

At the same time, he went out of his way to give "his guys" leeway. The whole cause of the incident- for an example Theo Fleury.

Right after the Strip club incident, the hawks had an extended road trip in MTL(it was a 5 day layoff). They were going to stay up there, and give all of the Fr. Canadiens we had on the team some time to be with their families. It was scheduled at the beginning of the season, and all of the Quebecers were looking forward to it: Tbo, Daze, Sullivan(Timmons), etc etc.... Because of Fleury et al, that was cancelled.

After one home game, they flew out to Calgary(2 days off). **FLEURY** Gets to go hang out with his family.... Nobody else. None of the other Western Canadien kids- they all have to hotel it and can't leave(practice).

Sutter has always had a double standard- for all the wrong reasons. Igor Korolev was called up to play with the big squad- THE WEEK AFTER Smith was fired.

Mark Bell, the team's leading scorer- didn't play on a non checking line until Mid December. And he got NO PP time at all the first 3 months. Yet, Igor Korolev, and Alexander Karpotsev did. After he was finally called out in the papers(and after Mark Bell became the teams leading scorer) did he finally put Beller on a PP over IGOR KOROLEV.

Bell has since been thrown back on a line with Scott Nichol, and Eric Nicklaus. He still is our leading Point guy, and second in goals(behind Calder, so he'll end up #1 most likely).

Sutter has talked down this team from day 1. He has also talked down guys like Mark Bell, Tyler Arnason, and famously said that Tuomo Ruutu is no the kind of player that "should be worrying about scoring goals". Saying that he was a "two way player" and not a guy that creates offense.

Oh really? Geez he did pretty good on his finnish team- and now that the puck is going through *him* he has been on fire in chicago. Ruutu got all of three games on a bum knee to play with legit scorer's- A lame Eric Daze(pre back surgery) and Steve Sullivan(who forgot that the season started for the first 3 weeks).

Sutter is all talk- all cliche's. There is no there there.

-fullmetalninja

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Old
03-07-2004, 03:06 AM
  #34
c-carp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetalninja
How does Arnason "deserve it"?

Sutter hasn't even had 1 good season here in chicago. his style motivated guys for 1/2 of 1 season. That was it. Then everyone tuned him out.

Sutter *cost* arnason the Calder trophy IMO, by playing him on the 4th line after the columbus incident(instead of with Daze/Sully where he would have doubled his point output).

At the same time, he went out of his way to give "his guys" leeway. The whole cause of the incident- for an example Theo Fleury.

Right after the Strip club incident, the hawks had an extended road trip in MTL(it was a 5 day layoff). They were going to stay up there, and give all of the Fr. Canadiens we had on the team some time to be with their families. It was scheduled at the beginning of the season, and all of the Quebecers were looking forward to it: Tbo, Daze, Sullivan(Timmons), etc etc.... Because of Fleury et al, that was cancelled.

After one home game, they flew out to Calgary(2 days off). **FLEURY** Gets to go hang out with his family.... Nobody else. None of the other Western Canadien kids- they all have to hotel it and can't leave(practice).

Sutter has always had a double standard- for all the wrong reasons. Igor Korolev was called up to play with the big squad- THE WEEK AFTER Smith was fired.

Mark Bell, the team's leading scorer- didn't play on a non checking line until Mid December. And he got NO PP time at all the first 3 months. Yet, Igor Korolev, and Alexander Karpotsev did. After he was finally called out in the papers(and after Mark Bell became the teams leading scorer) did he finally put Beller on a PP over IGOR KOROLEV.

Bell has since been thrown back on a line with Scott Nichol, and Eric Nicklaus. He still is our leading Point guy, and second in goals(behind Calder, so he'll end up #1 most likely).

Sutter has talked down this team from day 1. He has also talked down guys like Mark Bell, Tyler Arnason, and famously said that Tuomo Ruutu is no the kind of player that "should be worrying about scoring goals". Saying that he was a "two way player" and not a guy that creates offense.

Oh really? Geez he did pretty good on his finnish team- and now that the puck is going through *him* he has been on fire in chicago. Ruutu got all of three games on a bum knee to play with legit scorer's- A lame Eric Daze(pre back surgery) and Steve Sullivan(who forgot that the season started for the first 3 weeks).

Sutter is all talk- all cliche's. There is no there there.

-fullmetalninja
Brian Sutter is All Heart he was as a player and he is as a coach.

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Old
03-07-2004, 09:14 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch
Not a big deal. Arnason is a partier and a drinker and Sutter is just trying to get him focused. He was with Theo last year when it all went to Hell.

-dutch-
How do you know that is what he was doing exactly?
And even if it was the reason, it doesnt excuse the method.

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Old
03-07-2004, 09:28 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I have absolutely no problem with what happened there. Coaches used to do that all the time. Some still do.

Are you folks oversensitive, rosy-types or what? This isn't a high school chest tournament, guys. It's a men's sport. Arnason is 24, I think. He's a freaking grown up and should be able to take that. Sutter is 100% right that he is too laid back.

Pat Burns has had several altercations through the years with players and nobody who cares about this sport and knows what it's about gives a crap about it. That's part of hockey, especially at the NHL level. Some coaches are harsher than others and some players need that kick in the ass.
Sorry Vlad, but you don't speak for me as I both care about, and know hockey and I still think, if accurate, the coach was in the wrong. By far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Sutter is a 5 foot 11, 50 years old guy. What are you guys going to do if Arnason gets in a fight with Donald Brashear? Raise your purses in anger and demand a trial for attempted murder? Gimme a break.

When a team is losing constantly, those types of things tend to happen. This time, it was unfortunately in public. Which is apparently a mistake in these politically correct days where some fans seem to wear pink skirts and shed tears the minute someone is given some ****.
You are taking an extreme analogy and comparing it to a factual situation to make your point.

This has nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with a coach losing control and making an extremely poor decision. It has to do with a coach, losing his temper and picking a fight in public with one of his players.

Sutter has always been a leader. A good one. Yet in this case he showed poor leadership qualities, poor judgement and a poor example of person in a leadership position.

Sexuality remarks aside Vlad, I do not condone this behavior from anybody. And this at the risk of sounding like I am "waving my purse".

I am all for a coach giving a player shyt if he deserves it.

I am not all for a coach shoving a player, reportedly choking him, or picking a fight with him in a public place.

You want to get a message across? Try an alternative to attacking a player, or you risk losing some hard earned respect from the players you coach. Then who wins.

A dumb, dumb move.

Now I am off to buy my pink skirts as it is a requirment for me to wear at hockey games.


Last edited by stardog: 03-07-2004 at 09:35 AM.
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Old
03-07-2004, 09:37 AM
  #37
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Sutter has already lost the respect of the players if he has to resort to this kind of thing to try to make an impression.

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Old
03-07-2004, 04:30 PM
  #38
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Well, Arnason has two goals already tonight. Obviously he needs to be intimidated by middle aged men more.

Edit: Well you can add an assist to those two goals and he was named the first star.


Last edited by Doomsday Device: 03-07-2004 at 05:48 PM.
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Old
03-07-2004, 05:09 PM
  #39
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Larry Brooks NY Post column

http://www.nypost.com/sports/16850.htm

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