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OT: City of Detroit files for bankruptcy (Ch 9, ~$20 b debt restructuring sought)

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07-22-2013, 05:56 PM
  #226
Fugu
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I'd love to see someone challenge this corporate welfare scheme.
Why is it that people have no problem investing hundreds of millions of dollars so that the rich can get richer...
The trickledown effect here is pretty weak. A bunch of service industry jobs (minimum wage, part time) get created.

I really don't like the idea of investing public money in a private profit scheme.

What's the alternative? It's around $13 MM per year? The production jobs have already been lost, in the city and state, and that's not coming back. So let's say the Ilitches buy land in one of the suburbs and finance just an arena on their own (say $300 MM or so), as the Wings will have to play somewhere. Does this help or hurt Detroit?

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07-22-2013, 06:28 PM
  #227
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I agree 100 percent. Another thing is that Northwestern is non existant, or the most invisible of the big 10 school. Michigan is one of the top 10 schools in the country. There has to be something to show for that to the state.
Northwestern has what around 7,000 undergraduates. They are basically 1/5 the size of the next closest B1G school. That is the huge difference, they are leaders within the conference in terms of academic sharing and their standing with other members who know good and well their importance. University of Chicago also remains in the academic sharing portion of the conference even after giving up on sports making way for MSU. Those are important to school Presidents and faculty. Part of the reason Notre Dame's faculty has voted in favor of joining the B1G on the last three occasions it was discussed. People poo-poo that angle of it, but it has massive importance to people that have a big stake in the direction of the conference.

Northwestern pumps significant value and money into the conference. But they don't bring the eyes and can be forgotten on any given Saturday. But I am quite sure the conference doesn't take them for granted and their contributions are valued by other members. It's a fabulous University, an Original 6 member and a crown jewel for the conference, even if fans don't appreciate their value or find it visible at all times.

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What's the alternative? It's around $13 MM per year? The production jobs have already been lost, in the city and state, and that's not coming back. So let's say the Ilitches buy land in one of the suburbs and finance just an arena on their own (say $300 MM or so), as the Wings will have to play somewhere. Does this help or hurt Detroit?
A big part of why I don't understand some of the anger on this subject. So many say well just make Ilitch pay for it himself, why? He will find other partners that understand the value of this project or are willing to help in some part to bring this to their suburb. He found the funds and a way to do it within Detroit and is tapping into a legal avenue that is designed for just this function. Keep in mind the value of having a good concert venue in Detroit, which currently seeds almost all winter revenue to the Palace out in Auburn Hills in terms of events. Only rarely getting a boost at Ford Field, Comerica or JLA.

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07-22-2013, 11:36 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What's the alternative? It's around $13 MM per year? The production jobs have already been lost, in the city and state, and that's not coming back. So let's say the Ilitches buy land in one of the suburbs and finance just an arena on their own (say $300 MM or so), as the Wings will have to play somewhere. Does this help or hurt Detroit?
There's no shortage of jobs for 3-hours a night, 50 nights a year, $8.50 an hour.
These jobs are subsidized by taxpayers as it is, because they don't pay a living wage, so we pay for their foodstamps, housing and other subsidies.


If a sports owner wants to move his team and wants to blackmail a city, call his bluff.
Do you think the Detroit Red Wings really makes much of a difference to the average Detroit resident? Hell no.

Why in the **** should a penny of someone's taxes go to fund a Mike Ilitch project?

If he can't make it work, he should get out of the business.

It's time to right-size professional sports. **** these owners. They don't mind canceling the season on fans to bust some players.

Why the **** should I fund their BS?

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Old
07-22-2013, 11:43 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Northwestern has what around 7,000 undergraduates. They are basically 1/5 the size of the next closest B1G school. That is the huge difference, they are leaders within the conference in terms of academic sharing and their standing with other members who know good and well their importance. University of Chicago also remains in the academic sharing portion of the conference even after giving up on sports making way for MSU. Those are important to school Presidents and faculty. Part of the reason Notre Dame's faculty has voted in favor of joining the B1G on the last three occasions it was discussed. People poo-poo that angle of it, but it has massive importance to people that have a big stake in the direction of the conference.

Northwestern pumps significant value and money into the conference. But they don't bring the eyes and can be forgotten on any given Saturday. But I am quite sure the conference doesn't take them for granted and their contributions are valued by other members. It's a fabulous University, an Original 6 member and a crown jewel for the conference, even if fans don't appreciate their value or find it visible at all times.



A big part of why I don't understand some of the anger on this subject. So many say well just make Ilitch pay for it himself, why? He will find other partners that understand the value of this project or are willing to help in some part to bring this to their suburb. He found the funds and a way to do it within Detroit and is tapping into a legal avenue that is designed for just this function. Keep in mind the value of having a good concert venue in Detroit, which currently seeds almost all winter revenue to the Palace out in Auburn Hills in terms of events. Only rarely getting a boost at Ford Field, Comerica or JLA.
Oh please.

You're talking about the "value" of a hockey arena and concert venue. What value?
It's going to be owned by who? The county? The city?
So is there property tax revenue? Nope.


The money doesn't go to "Detroit."

It goes to Ilitch. It goes to the rich guys.

Building Comerica Park and Ford Field didn't prevent Detroit from going bankrupt.

Americans better wake up and stop letting rich people dictate the terms of everything in this country.

You want the Red Wings to stay in Detroit? Then taxpayers better fund half the arena.
You want this factory to stay in Detroit? Then the government better make Michigan a right-to-work state and eliminate hundreds of millions in business taxes and put those on the backs of homeowners instead.

It's a sucker's game. Someone, somewhere will always be a little more desperate.

Let'em walk. If Ilitch wants to be remembered as the guy who moved the Red Wings to Plymouth, good for him.

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Old
07-23-2013, 03:54 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The state should force it. Indiana and Tennessee did. St Louis has the same problems. Chicago avoided this by becoming the biggest part of cook country, something Detroit is not. In fact Chicago has a lot of the same issues and came out a global city still like LA and NY.
Tennessee did not force the city-county merger of Nashville and Davidson County (which happened in 1963). The city and the county residents had to vote for it in order for it to get passed. In fact, the vote failed in a previous attempt (1958). The only thing the state of Tennessee did was change its constitution to allow a metropolitan form of government.

If Tennessee was in the business of forcing city-county consolidations, Memphis-Shelby County would have happened long ago.



Whether what Nashville did would work for Detroit is a different story altogether. Nashville certainly had problems in the 50s and 60s (which is what lead to the consolidation). The city could provide services, but the tax base was eroding. The county could only provide limited services (limited by the state)...the county had the population and the wealth...the city had the capacity for services. It turned out to be a good thing for us. As for Michigan -- each state is different when it comes to how they handle that, and how their local governments are set up. With Nashville and Davidson County, 6 satellite cities remained as independent (with semi-autonomy)...they were already incorporated cities before the merger...with Detroit and Wayne County, it could be the same. Already established cities would continue to operate as such, and Detroit city would absorb unincorporated areas of the county.

I don't know for sure, but I imagine much of the wealth and tax base that the city of Detroit desires would lie in already incorporated cities. This would lessen the positive effect of city-county consolidation. In effect, a merger could actually bring down the county rather than strengthen it. Nashville, as many problems as it had in the 1960s, was no where near the depths of where Detroit lies today. The implications of a city-county merger were not nearly as extreme as they would be for Detroit.

I'm not saying it would necessarily be a futile effort -- I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of Detroit, Wayne County, or the state of Michigan -- but I can say that each individual case is very different. County consolidation shouldn't be viewed as a fix-all solution, but rather an option. What worked for us isn't necessarily going to work for everybody.

Finally, as a Predators fan, I certainly do hold a lot of contempt towards the Red Wings, but not the city of Detroit, the metro area, or its people. I absolutely wish that they will be able to solve their issues and come out of this a stronger city and region. But it will be a tough battle. I don't think the bottom has been hit yet...but hopefully it is not too far off.

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Old
07-23-2013, 09:39 AM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
Tennessee did not force the city-county merger of Nashville and Davidson County (which happened in 1963). The city and the county residents had to vote for it in order for it to get passed. In fact, the vote failed in a previous attempt (1958). The only thing the state of Tennessee did was change its constitution to allow a metropolitan form of government.

If Tennessee was in the business of forcing city-county consolidations, Memphis-Shelby County would have happened long ago.



Whether what Nashville did would work for Detroit is a different story altogether. Nashville certainly had problems in the 50s and 60s (which is what lead to the consolidation). The city could provide services, but the tax base was eroding. The county could only provide limited services (limited by the state)...the county had the population and the wealth...the city had the capacity for services. It turned out to be a good thing for us. As for Michigan -- each state is different when it comes to how they handle that, and how their local governments are set up. With Nashville and Davidson County, 6 satellite cities remained as independent (with semi-autonomy)...they were already incorporated cities before the merger...with Detroit and Wayne County, it could be the same. Already established cities would continue to operate as such, and Detroit city would absorb unincorporated areas of the county.

I don't know for sure, but I imagine much of the wealth and tax base that the city of Detroit desires would lie in already incorporated cities. This would lessen the positive effect of city-county consolidation. In effect, a merger could actually bring down the county rather than strengthen it. Nashville, as many problems as it had in the 1960s, was no where near the depths of where Detroit lies today. The implications of a city-county merger were not nearly as extreme as they would be for Detroit.

I'm not saying it would necessarily be a futile effort -- I do not have intimate knowledge of the workings of Detroit, Wayne County, or the state of Michigan -- but I can say that each individual case is very different. County consolidation shouldn't be viewed as a fix-all solution, but rather an option. What worked for us isn't necessarily going to work for everybody.

Finally, as a Predators fan, I certainly do hold a lot of contempt towards the Red Wings, but not the city of Detroit, the metro area, or its people. I absolutely wish that they will be able to solve their issues and come out of this a stronger city and region. But it will be a tough battle. I don't think the bottom has been hit yet...but hopefully it is not too far off.
Thanks for the info.

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Old
07-24-2013, 10:21 PM
  #232
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/us...case.html?_r=0

Federal judge halts legal challenges to bankruptcy.

Quote:
The decision by Judge Steven Rhodes of the United States Bankruptcy Court freezes all litigation against the city, its emergency manager and Gov. Rick Snyder of Michigan during Detroit’s bankruptcy process.

Judge Rhodes said challenges to the city’s Chapter 9 filing, including protests by retired city employees about potential pension cuts, would be addressed in coming hearings. The federal bankruptcy court has “exclusive jurisdiction” over the case, he said.
...
But on Wednesday, in the first hearing in the case, Judge Rhodes settled the matter by approving a motion by Mr. Orr to freeze all litigation against the city during its bankruptcy. The judge said that concentrating all legal issues in federal court increased the chances that Detroit could reorganize its debts and emerge from bankruptcy in better financial shape.
...
The judge also extended protection from litigation to Mr. Orr, Governor Snyder and other state officials directly involved in the bankruptcy.

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07-25-2013, 09:43 AM
  #233
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Private operator of U.S. side of Detroit-Windsor tunnel declares bankruptcy

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2013/07...es-bankruptcy/

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07-25-2013, 10:27 AM
  #234
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The Red wings could have save money and played winter games all years...

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Old
12-03-2013, 03:43 PM
  #235
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I'll leave this thread closed, but an update ...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/ju...for-bankruptcy

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Judge Declares Detroit Eligible For Bankruptcy

DETROIT (AP) -- Detroit is eligible to shed billions in debt in the largest public bankruptcy in U.S. history, a judge said Tuesday in a long-awaited decision that now shifts the case toward how the city will accomplish that task.

Judge Steven Rhodes turned down objections from unions, pension funds and retirees, which, like other creditors, could lose under any plan to solve $18 billion in long-term liabilities.

But that plan isn't on the judge's desk yet. The issue for Rhodes, who presided over a nine-day trial, was whether Detroit met specific conditions under federal law to stay in bankruptcy court and turn its finances around after years of mismanagement, chronic population loss and collapse of the middle class.

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