Okay, so Cheevers was better than the average WHA goalie; what exactly does that mean? The WHA wasn't exactly known for its defense and goaltending, right?
In 1973, Parent played on the worst defensive team in the WHA and had significantly better stats than any of his backups. (Cheevers had the best GAA in the league and stats significantly better than his no-name backup). It seems like 1973 was a legit great season for Cheevers, though it's hard to tell how great against WHA competition.
Philadelphia had the third worst defensive team in the WHA. Quebec and New York were weaker. Team was coached by Phil Watson, no concept of defensive hockey even though there was sufficient talent. Further complicated by the fact that the next paycheck was always an adventure.
Bob Whidden, the back-up in Cleveland was arguably the best back-up that season in the WHA.
Cleveland was an excellent team defensively with arguably the best overall center in Ron Buchanan.
Philadelphia had the third worst defensive team in the WHA. Quebec and New York were weaker. Team was coached by Phil Watson, no concept of defensive hockey even though there was sufficient talent. Further complicated by the fact that the next paycheck was always an adventure.
Bob Whidden, the back-up in Cleveland was arguably the best back-up that season in the WHA.
Cleveland was an excellent team defensively with arguably the best overall center in Ron Buchanan.
Thanks. I really don't know anything about the non-elite teams in the WHA, but somebody had to start looking into Cheevers' record there.
If anyone thinks Vezina shares is a useful metric, the following might be useful:
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
I decided to add the all-star results from 68-69 to 80-81 to see what it would look like. The voting in those years was the same 5-3-1 format, the only difference was that those years the voters were writers instead of GMs.
player
times
share
Martin Brodeur
15
5.4072
Ken Dryden
7
4.7817
Dominik Hasek
11
4.7591
Patrick Roy
17
4.6216
Tony Esposito
12
4.1564
Ed Belfour
11
2.5044
Bernie Parent
9
2.2239
Tom Barrasso
7
1.9833
Mike Liut
7
1.8349
Ed Giacomin
5
1.8291
Glenn Resch
7
1.6855
Grant Fuhr
8
1.5901
Rogie Vachon
6
1.5778
Roberto Luongo
7
1.5600
Tim Thomas
3
1.5533
John Vanbiesbrouck
9
1.5329
Henrik Lundqvist
7
1.4933
Miikka Kiprusoff
7
1.4333
Dryden's score is just ridiculous for a career as brief as his. Esposito's longevity of consistent high-level play was extraordinary. I'm actually surprised Parent didn't finish higher. It's unfortunate that Glenn Resch hit his peak before the Isles Cup dynasty, as it's caused some to overlook how good he was in the 70s.
Combining All Star and Vezina votes like this is kind of a perversion of the metric, but I think it's useful to look at. Just keep in mind that the more teams in the league, the more goalies there are to split shares. And, as always, competition matters.
Nonetheless, Mike Liut looks pretty impressive here.
This group is just such a mishmash to me, incredibly hard to compare at a number of levels. I'm not completely sure that any one of my 8 choices was truly in the correct position, but what are you gonna do?
Voted, we wrote off Kiprusoff a little too soon...what's he have, like four top-5 Vezina finishes...he's been good in the playoffs (outstanding in 2004) but his teams have been pretty mediocre (outside of '04). But he has one good playoffs just like Thomas and Lundqvist, so hopefully he can live off of it even though it didn't just happen...
Kipper is a workhorse goalie for a team stuck in hockey limbo and has performed admirably pretty much every year he's been allowed to...more elite seasons than many of the guys left, but just didn't get talked about that much...a lot of one and two year wonders are up for vote, but a guy with a small handful got pushed aside. I wish I had had more time to make some cases in this thread, but I'm on a rush job right now with almost no time to spare...
I gave Kipper his due...I did take Roach over Connell too, just from my readings, I got the inclination that they were close, but Roach was more well respected...
Voted, we wrote off Kiprusoff a little too soon...what's he have, like four top-5 Vezina finishes...he's been good in the playoffs (outstanding in 2004) but his teams have been pretty mediocre (outside of '04). But he has one good playoffs just like Thomas and Lundqvist, so hopefully he can live off of it even though it didn't just happen...
Kipper is a workhorse goalie for a team stuck in hockey limbo and has performed admirably pretty much every year he's been allowed to...more elite seasons than many of the guys left, but just didn't get talked about that much...a lot of one and two year wonders are up for vote, but a guy with a small handful got pushed aside. I wish I had had more time to make some cases in this thread, but I'm on a rush job right now with almost no time to spare...
I gave Kipper his due...I did take Roach over Connell too, just from my readings, I got the inclination that they were close, but Roach was more well respected...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD
Same here. But he wasn't in my Top-4 last round.
I had Kipper in my top 8 (just like last time), but he didn't quite make my top 4.
The incredible thing about Dryden and his stats are that he was not respected as a great goalie from his team members.Also he sat out a year to get a better contract was not taken very well.The late Michel Larouque had comparable stats playing about 30 games a year.Larouque had a 2.09 gaa in one season.Bowman benched Dryden in final 79 and Laroouque got hurt in pre-game.Dryden was very good but stats can be very mis-leading
The incredible thing about Dryden and his stats are that he was not respected as a great goalie from his team members.Also he sat out a year to get a better contract was not taken very well.The late Michel Larouque had comparable stats playing about 30 games a year.Larouque had a 2.09 gaa in one season.Bowman benched Dryden in final 79 and Laroouque got hurt in pre-game.Dryden was very good but stats can be very mis-leading
The Habs also got worse when Dryden left for his studies, and Laroque played against weaker teams.
Besides, do you have a quote for the non-respect thing? Anyways... not being respected by teammates (if that's the case) is, IMO, pretty irrelevant for the purposes of this list, unless the lack of respect is directed to the lack of skill of said goaltender. The exercise aims to establish a list of the most proefficient goaltenders, not a list of the most popular individual who doned pads on every three days during 8 months while being paid to do so.
