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NHL will not participate in 2018 Pyeongchang Olympic Games

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05-26-2017, 02:23 PM
  #501
Tom ServoMST3K
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
As always, this conversation boils down to whether or not there's any morality for businesses beyond profit and loss.
I don't think morality and the IOC deserve any place together.

IIHF needs to sit down with the NHL and KHL and work out a proper world cup format and time, and should have done that years ago.

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05-26-2017, 03:12 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Correct. And.....

1- NHL has no morality beyond money.

2- Even if they did, they certainly have no moral obligation to support IOC, which has even less morality beyond money.
This is where I think a lot of this gets lost. Yeah, the IOC is a corrupt and morally suspect organization. But the question of a morality beyond simple business morality isn't about the organization the NHL has to deal with, but the service they'd be providing to the fans and the players.

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05-26-2017, 03:16 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
I don't think morality and the IOC deserve any place together.
I'll never understand the people who get so righteous about the Olympic games while painting the NHL as vampires. It's been pretty well documented that the IOC is basically second only to FIFA in terms of criminal corruption. They are so unpopular and their business model so rotten they are now having trouble finding interested host cities in the western world for the summer games, and no one at all in Europe was willing to bid on the Winter.

Yet we keep getting told here how these games are the greatest and fans are being betrayed by the NHL not participating. That doesn't seem to the sentiment in the democratic real world.

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05-26-2017, 03:24 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
This is where I think a lot of this gets lost. Yeah, the IOC is a corrupt and morally suspect organization. But the question of a morality beyond simple business morality isn't about the organization the NHL has to deal with, but the service they'd be providing to the fans and the players.
Which exactly illustrates the point of #1 above, Tawnos.

I actually think there are NO good players here (not hockey players, of course).

Those of us who live here on the BoH know that the NHL ownership group really has NO interest in offering the fans a bone. They take the fans completely for granted. (Now, whether they should or not is a different question.) They have no reason to do otherwise, because the fans basically let themselves be treated like junk, and keep coming back and spending ever more money on the game. The owners' history is, to put it mildly and assume that Killion is entirely correct in his history, one of lying, cheating, and generally acting as is it were an extension of the mafia. There is no reason to expect them to do anything else here. (And, in fact, if they had any feeling to do anything other than find more ways to pad their own bank accounts, the NHL would be an entirely different place right now.) Do the owners have an obligation to provide such a morality as you discuss, Tawnos? Perhaps in the minds of some fans. But, certainly not from any larger culture which controls them. And, certainly not from any 'stewards of the game' sort of angle, because there is no one to enforce such a thing.

As to how they deal with the players.....Should the owners have an obligation to the players to let them play in the Olympics for good will? Good question. Setting it aside for a moment, I would point out the management/labor relations are generally combative. And, definitely true in the case of NHL/NHLPA. There is no reason why the owners should be required to play nice with the players, since the players surely won't play nice back. And, that's why the NHL offered the Olympics as part of an adjustment to the CBA.

In short, in the present world, everything HAS to be done in a manner with eyes to the legal side, because, quite literally, no one trusts anyone any more.

And, that's too bad.

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05-26-2017, 06:05 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
I'll never understand the people who get so righteous about the Olympic games while painting the NHL as vampires. It's been pretty well documented that the IOC is basically second only to FIFA in terms of criminal corruption. They are so unpopular and their business model so rotten they are now having trouble finding interested host cities in the western world for the summer games, and no one at all in Europe was willing to bid on the Winter.

Yet we keep getting told here how these games are the greatest and fans are being betrayed by the NHL not participating. That doesn't seem to the sentiment in the democratic real world.
At root, the IOC is still providing a platform for the worlds best athletes to come together and compete. So even though there's issues in how the organization is run, the games themselves are still a great thing.

I think the IOC brought this about as much as anyone. In no way do I paint them as righteous or the NHL as vampires. I do think that both parties were unnecessarily obstinate on the issues. The IOC never should've pulled the insurance.

But in the end, the Olympics are a very important global social institution. The NHL should've found a way to be part of them.

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05-26-2017, 06:16 PM
  #506
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No one in soccer cares about a non-full participation Olympics.

Because they have a real World Cup, because FIFA and the Leagues work together at least a little bit. Let's throw the IIHF into the blame pile as well as the NHL and IOC. I hate that a real best on best has to be only at the olympics, where other crap matters more for most countries.

16 team World Cup. 4 groups of 4. Do it whenever it works best. Group games to determine top 2 (With ties and overtime) and then a single elimination bracket, with sudden death overtime, only it moves to 4 on 4 after the first period.

I'd Also like to see a full on "International" schedule like soccer. Weekends set aside for friendlies and qualifying matches throughout the year.

Don't tell me the top NHL owners wouldn't love to host special friendlies/qualifying games in their markets, with full marketing and image rights to the leagues.

This shouldn't be that hard to set up. There are really only 2 hockey leagues that matter, which need to get onboard (KHL and NHL) and once those leagues agree the lesser Euro leagues should follow.


Last edited by Tom ServoMST3K: 05-26-2017 at 06:24 PM.
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05-26-2017, 06:22 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
No one in soccer cares about a non-full participation Olympics.

Because they have a real World Cup, because FIFA and the Leagues work together at least a little bit. Let's throw the IIHF into the blame pile as well as the NHL and IOC. I hate that a real best on best has to be only at the olympics, where other crap matters more for most countries.

16 team World Cup. 4 groups of 4. Do it whenever it works best. Group games to determine top 2 (With ties) and then a single elimination bracket.

I'd Also like to see a full on "International" schedule like soccer. Weekends set aside for friendlies and qualifying matches throughout the year.

Don't tell me the top NHL owners wouldn't love to host special friendlies/qualifying games in their markets, with full marketing and image rights to the leagues.
The more international play the better IMO. There was talk about the NHL participating in some form of Champions league a while back. I would love that.

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05-26-2017, 06:27 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The more international play the better IMO. There was talk about the NHL participating in some form of Champions league a while back. I would love that.
Replace the outdoor game on new year's day with an annual Canada-USA friendly, rotating between markets north and south of the border. Heck if you have to, make it an outdoor game. Make that the only friendly between the nations outside of qualifying/real tournaments. Give out a cheesy trophy to the winner, like college football rivalries (and the Banjo Bowl).

The TV rights and advertising for that singular game would fund a complete international schedule.

You could do that as the NHL without any input from the IIHF or IOC.

If other nations want to do something similar at the same time, give permission for other NHL players to head to europe for other friendlies. Finland vs Sweden, Russia vs Czechs. A triple header on New years eve/day. It would be a start, and after a few year's of league's and the IIHF working on something like that, they'll be ready to put together a serious world cup together.


Last edited by Tom ServoMST3K: 05-26-2017 at 07:20 PM.
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05-27-2017, 05:36 PM
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
Don't tell me the top NHL owners wouldn't love to host special friendlies/qualifying games in their markets, with full marketing and image rights to the leagues.

This shouldn't be that hard to set up. There are really only 2 hockey leagues that matter, which need to get onboard (KHL and NHL) and once those leagues agree the lesser Euro leagues should follow.
They would, but what NHL owners would be saying is : A game in Paris, France or London GB, nah nothing to gain for us there. But a game in NYC, USA, bring it on baby we want those at least once a week.

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05-27-2017, 06:33 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
No one in soccer cares about a non-full participation Olympics.

Because they have a real World Cup, because FIFA and the Leagues work together at least a little bit. Let's throw the IIHF into the blame pile as well as the NHL and IOC. I hate that a real best on best has to be only at the olympics, where other crap matters more for most countries.

16 team World Cup. 4 groups of 4. Do it whenever it works best. Group games to determine top 2 (With ties and overtime) and then a single elimination bracket, with sudden death overtime, only it moves to 4 on 4 after the first period.

I'd Also like to see a full on "International" schedule like soccer. Weekends set aside for friendlies and qualifying matches throughout the year.

Don't tell me the top NHL owners wouldn't love to host special friendlies/qualifying games in their markets, with full marketing and image rights to the leagues.

This shouldn't be that hard to set up. There are really only 2 hockey leagues that matter, which need to get onboard (KHL and NHL) and once those leagues agree the lesser Euro leagues should follow.
I seriously doubt the NHL owners would ever have an interest in international friendlies or shutting down for a weekend here and there to accommodate whatever international games you want to see. Secondly, I doubt the North American fan would be interested all that much either. Most NHL fans will be more concerned about their players getting hurt than the actual US or Canada qualifiers and/or friendlies.

The only type of qualifiers they will have is for the weaker hockey nations. Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, and possibly Slovakia will not have to go through qualifying. If they have qualifying it would be for the next 12-20 teams and probably in the summer before.

However, there is only one league that matters. If the rest of the world wants to have this, they need to get in line. That includes the KHL, despite the rhetoric some on here like the spew.


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05-27-2017, 07:29 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I seriously doubt the NHL owners would ever have an interest in international friendlies or shutting down for a weekend here and there to accommodate whatever international games you want to see. Secondly, I doubt the North American fan would be interested all that much either. Most NHL fans will be more concerned about their players getting hurt than the actual US or Canada qualifiers and/or friendlies.

The only type of qualifiers they will have is for the weaker hockey nations. Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, and possibly Slovakia will not have to go through qualifying. If they have qualifying it would be for the next 12-20 teams and probably in the summer before.

However, there is only one league that matters. If the rest of the world wants to have this, they need to get in line. That includes the KHL, despite the rhetoric some on here like the spew.
A couple points:

The cost to owners point would be mitigated by increased revenues by hosting my revamped Winter Classic. Screw the all star game, and structure a proper international schedule instead. In terms of revenue, partner with the IIHF to help with the IIHF on the tournament, so it makes money for the owners. (Especially with television)

In terms of Fan interest, I think there would be interest in a once every 4 years true world cup. International breaks are a part of that system. Obviously on the BoH board, we look at the NHL at a more macro level, but the impression I get from Joe Fan, is they are upset the NHL isn't going to the Olympics.

The top soccer nations still have to play in qualifiers, why not the top hockey nations?

And like it or not, if we want to make a true world cup with more than 4 teams, then the NHL will need the KHL's help.

I think the point you're getting at is: "I don't think the NHL is interested in a world cup"

Which is a solid point, but let's not pretend it's some impossible task to put one together. If the NHL wanted it to happen, they could easily get one put on in 4 years. Heck They could probably set something up for this/next offseason.

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05-27-2017, 07:38 PM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
A couple points:

The cost to owners point would be mitigated by increased revenues by hosting my revamped Winter Classic. Screw the all star game, and structure a proper international schedule instead. In terms of revenue, partner with the IIHF to help with the IIHF on the tournament, so it makes money for the owners. (Especially with television)

In terms of Fan interest, I think there would be interest in a once every 4 years true world cup. International breaks are a part of that system. Obviously on the BoH board, we look at the NHL at a more macro level, but the impression I get from Joe Fan, is they are upset the NHL isn't going to the Olympics.

The top soccer nations still have to play in qualifiers, why not the top hockey nations?

And like it or not, if we want to make a true world cup with more than 4 teams, then the NHL will need the KHL's help.

I think the point you're getting at is: "I don't think the NHL is interested in a world cup"

Which is a solid point, but let's not pretend it's some impossible task to put one together. If the NHL wanted it to happen, they could easily get one put on in 4 years. Heck They could probably set something up for this/next offseason.
The NHL does not care what soccer does.

As for the rest, international breaks, friendlies, I think you are dreaming. I do not think it would ever happen. North Americans are just not interested in exhibition games.

My experience with "Joe Fan" has been the opposite as yours. Most either do not care if the NHL goes to the Olympics or not or doesn't want them to go at all. I only know two people who are disappointed and that is my wife and her friend. My wife is a hockey fan, friend is not. They are both what you would call Olympic nerds.

I agree, it is not an impossible task. Just that it is never going to happen. Just like I would love nothing more than for the NHL to use a schedule matrix where teams play the teams from the other conference only once, alternating the home team each year. It is certainly not an impossible task and the NHL could easily do it, but I have accepted that it isn't going to happen.


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Yesterday, 08:34 AM
  #513
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True that the NHL does not care what soccer does, but the English Premier League does provide and interesting template with top teams participating in three tournaments (FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League or Europa League) aside from EPL games. True, when the Premiership season ends, there are no playoffs (something North American fans of all sports find hard to understand). so the analogy isn't quite right.

Although it will likely never happen, it is fascinating to think about the possibilities of out-of-league games during the season. There are many options to pursue that would not diminish the regular season or take away from the Stanley Cup playoffs.

Out there, for certain, but interesting, for sure.

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Yesterday, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
The NHL does not care what soccer does.

As for the rest, international breaks, friendlies, I think you are dreaming. I do not think it would ever happen. North Americans are just not interested in exhibition games.

My experience with "Joe Fan" has been the opposite as yours. Most either do not care if the NHL goes to the Olympics or not or doesn't want them to go at all.
This has been completely my experience too





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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
True that the NHL does not care what soccer does, but...
Given even you admit that the NHL doesn't care what soccer does, I don't see the value in everything after the "but" (I'd add that "the NHL" isn't alone as few NHL fans care what soccer does either)


Quote:
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Although it will likely never happen, it is fascinating to think about the possibilities of out-of-league games during the season. There are many options to pursue that would not diminish the regular season or take away from the Stanley Cup playoffs.

Out there, for certain, but interesting, for sure.
In North America these are called "exhibition games" and no one cares about them at all (most definitely not considered fascinating/interesting)

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Yesterday, 12:07 PM
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This has been completely my experience too





Given even you admit that the NHL doesn't care what soccer does, I don't see the value in everything after the "but" (I'd add that "the NHL" isn't alone as few NHL fans care what soccer does either)


In North America these are called "exhibition games" and no one cares about them at all (most definitely not considered fascinating/interesting)
Just thinking outside the box. Easy to dismiss everything and anything and cling to the old ways when the world, even the world of sports, is always changing and evolving.

I was not thinking of "exhibition games" or "friendlies," but somehow incorporating games within a league framework, one-off tournament, or something else that would grab the public and fan's attention.

What is certain, fifty years from now, the world of hockey will look different from it looks today. If you don't think that the unthinkable is possible, think about someone who came of age during the last years of the Original Six (like I did) and what their reaction would have been if you told them the the NHL would have teams in Nashville, Las Vegas, Tampa, et al, or that one day the NHL would play games against the USSR. They would have said that you were out of your mind.

Most sports fans are conservative and don't want their game to change. Clinging to tradition can be a good thing, and hockey, in a way that is similar to baseball, values and remembers its past. Hockey and its fans embrace their team's history, players, and traditions. As an Original Six fan (Rangers) I certainly do. I remember my Dad telling me of Ching Johnson and Rangers playing the Americans at MSG. I told me kids of the GAG line and Eddie Giacomin.

I love tradition but thinking about change is only a positive. Just dismissing them out of hand is a negative. Thought experiments are good. You never know what will come of them that one day will be thought of as traditional.

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Yesterday, 12:11 PM
  #516
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The problem I have is ''NHL doesn't make anything out of it because it is in South Korea''.

But if it was in Vancouver Canada or Salt Lake City USA, like it was in the past...oh it makes boat load of sense for NHL...suddenly.

If people don't watch it because it's in South Korea, they won't watch it more because its in North America.

In the end, it will be that the Olympic Gold in 2018 doesn't mean anything because even tho South Africa won, there were no NHL players so its crap. Oh but the one Canada/USA won in 2022 in China, that's a true win because those teams were composed of 100% NHL players. That's honestly ******** I have issue with.
There's also the political aspect about this. It looks as if China is considering barring the NHL players from playing in the 2022 Olympics for playing in the upcoming Pyeongchang Olympics. As you already know, China is having a THAAD-related conflict with South Korea, although the conflict seems to be subsiding, due to the new President of South Korea, Moon Jae-In.

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Today, 09:38 AM
  #517
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huh? They gonna ban ski jumpers who participated in 2018 from 2022, also? That really makes no sense, crazy even for China. I hate to be this guy but can you please provide a source?

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Today, 10:33 AM
  #518
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In the end, it will be that the Olympic Gold in 2018 doesn't mean anything because even tho South Africa won, there were no NHL players so its crap. Oh but the one Canada/USA won in 2022 in China, that's a true win because those teams were composed of 100% NHL players. That's honestly ******** I have issue with.
Any best-on-best hockey is going to include NHLers
  • It's having the best athletes involved that make something best-on-best
  • Anything else will be "crap" (as you say) in comparison
  • If the Olympics decides to hold tournaments for sports without the best athletes, that's on the IOC (and they do! like soccer! but nobody cares about it because it's not best-on-best, that'd of course be the World Cup for soccer.....I really don't understand why the IOC would bother holding an "Olympic" event they know is not best-on-best)

I'm not sure why you'd have an issue with a tournament of 2nd/3rd level players not being given the same worth as best-on-best

IMO it's not where the games are played or who organizes it that matters...relevance/value to me is 100% based on the best players being there (Canada/World Cups and the Olympics 1998-2014 have been best-on-best and nothing else has been in my lifetime)

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