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Old
03-30-2014, 06:46 PM
  #226
Lynk
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I remember the days when the calls of "Get rid of that fatass" referred to Buff.

Nostalgia, man.

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03-30-2014, 06:47 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
Playing the toughest competition on the team and pushing the play the other way, normally scores a lot of points (of people that aren't 4th liners, I'm pretty sure he has the lowest on ice Sh% on the team this season).

This season it's the same thing as with Kane. He's unlucky when it comes to Sh%, which makes people think his offensive play is bad all of a sudden.

If you want to see exactly which stats says what, I'm not really the guy to ask. Send out the Stat-Signal and wait until Statman shows up. But that's the gist of it.
TobiBest <3

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Old
03-30-2014, 07:03 PM
  #228
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And your incessant arguing just broke HFBoards!

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Old
03-30-2014, 08:32 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ober View Post
And if Ron Hainsey and Nik Antropov were each making $800k in the past two seasons (instead of 4 million each)...the Jets probably would have made the playoffs infinitely more times (because they would have been much better players at those salaries...or so show the comparative numbers).

I must admit...I am having trouble figuring out why a team that has plenty of cap room would think it is an "infinitely better solution"?

I cannot wait to be enlightened and educated with the answer!
If Hainsey and Antropov were each playing for $800K then the Jets could have stayed on budget and acquired, for example, a 35 goal scorer in place of Wellwood.

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Old
03-30-2014, 09:44 PM
  #230
PocketHoquet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ober View Post
This has nothing to do with Pavelec, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Hainsey, Antropov, etc...etc...

I say again:

The stats on Enstrom don't make my opinion anymore right or wrong...they are what they are.

Just like the stats on any other player don't my my (or your) opinion anymore right or wrong.
The stats allow us to make qualitative statements about past performance (ex. "he was good", "he contributed to the offense", "he was a defensive liability") from quantitative calculations (ex. fancystats). There's room for interpretation, but within reason. If your opinion matches, or is supported, by what is suggested in the stats (the patterns people painstakingly observed and analysed), then yes, it could be more or less right or wrong. Take the following:

- I say that my "opinion" is that Buff is better on forward because he doesn't give as many pucks away.
- Someone asks "Why is giving pucks away such a bad thing?".
- I reply "well duh, it leads to more goals against"
- They say, "Well when Buff is on D there are more shots directed at the opposing net than our own net, because we counted them. This actually results in more goals for in the long run."

You'd have to see that my original opinion was more "wrong" than someone who might say "Buff is better on defense because team production is higher".

Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Opinions can be wrong or right though.
Opinions can be validated and proven wrong or right and supported through evidence.
Statistics are part of evidence.

EDIT:
Well it depends...
True opinions cannot be disproven, but facts can. People often display false facts as if they are opinions and defend them as if they are opinions.
I think you had it right before your edit. Opinions ARE factual claims about what is going on. There is not an opinion that is not reducible to some factual claim.

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Old
03-30-2014, 09:55 PM
  #231
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Isn't the definition to opinion something that can't be verified by stats, but if it can be supported by facts it moves from opinion to argument.

I have very little experience in philosophy (most of which is in biomedical ethics)... so ya who knows lol.

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:23 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Isn't the definition to opinion something that can't be verified by stats, but if it can be supported by facts it moves from opinion to argument.

I have very little experience in philosophy (most of which is in biomedical ethics)... so ya who knows lol.
You're right. The most common definitions of "opinion" have to do with judgements that are subjective. However, subjectivity (the idea that it's my experience, or point of view, so how dare you question it) is being challenged these days, at least in terms of opinions or values, because often the root of an opinion is a factual claim (you just have to ask a couple of questions usually to find it). Maybe a smarter person than me could come up with an opinion that is irreducible.

I would never tell anyone that they couldn't have a certain opinion.. people can believe what they want afaic (everyone makes sense of the world as best they can). But I can evaluate their opinions and, likewise, I expect mine to be open season for evaluation as well.. especially in an open forum such as this where debate and discussion are encouraged. Admitting I'm wrong about something is a pleasure because it means I learned something. You've actually helped me do that more than once (re: Burmistrov), so thank you.

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:32 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketHoquet View Post
You're right. The most common definitions of "opinion" have to do with judgements that are subjective. However, subjectivity (the idea that it's my experience, or point of view, so how dare you question it) is being challenged these days, at least in terms of opinions or values, because often the root of an opinion is a factual claim (you just have to ask a couple of questions usually to find it). Maybe a smarter person than me could come up with an opinion that is irreducible.

I would never tell anyone that they couldn't have a certain opinion.. people can believe what they want afaic (everyone makes sense of the world as best they can). But I can evaluate their opinions and, likewise, I expect mine to be open season for evaluation as well.. especially in an open forum such as this where debate and discussion are encouraged. Admitting I'm wrong about something is a pleasure because it means I learned something. You've actually helped me do that more than once (re: Burmistrov), so thank you.
People may have the right to an opinion. They don't have the right to not have it challenged, ridiculed and/or completely dismissed. People seem to confuse these things.

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:52 PM
  #234
PocketHoquet
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Originally Posted by supahdupah View Post
People may have the right to an opinion. They don't have the right to not have it challenged, ridiculed and/or completely dismissed. People seem to confuse these things.
Exactly (although I prefer challenging over ridiculing and dismissing). Even though "opinions" are in the realm of subjectivity, as discussed above, in my experience everyone who has publicly expressed their opinion has felt that it says something concrete about reality. People normally go to the "well it's my opinion and opinions can be different" defense when they feel their opinion isn't defensible but aren't ready to admit it.

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03-30-2014, 10:54 PM
  #235
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Seems like a great place to break out this dandy...

"People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts."

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Old
03-30-2014, 11:02 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by wpgsilver View Post
Seems like a great place to break out this dandy...

"People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts."

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Old
03-30-2014, 11:23 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketHoquet View Post
The stats allow us to make qualitative statements about past performance (ex. "he was good", "he contributed to the offense", "he was a defensive liability") from quantitative calculations (ex. fancystats). There's room for interpretation, but within reason. If your opinion matches, or is supported, by what is suggested in the stats (the patterns people painstakingly observed and analysed), then yes, it could be more or less right or wrong. Take the following:

- I say that my "opinion" is that Buff is better on forward because he doesn't give as many pucks away.
- Someone asks "Why is giving pucks away such a bad thing?".
- I reply "well duh, it leads to more goals against"
- They say, "Well when Buff is on D there are more shots directed at the opposing net than our own net, because we counted them. This actually results in more goals for in the long run."

You'd have to see that my original opinion was more "wrong" than someone who might say "Buff is better on defense because team production is higher".



I think you had it right before your edit. Opinions ARE factual claims about what is going on. There is not an opinion that is not reducible to some factual claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketHoquet View Post
You're right. The most common definitions of "opinion" have to do with judgements that are subjective. However, subjectivity (the idea that it's my experience, or point of view, so how dare you question it) is being challenged these days, at least in terms of opinions or values, because often the root of an opinion is a factual claim (you just have to ask a couple of questions usually to find it). Maybe a smarter person than me could come up with an opinion that is irreducible.

I would never tell anyone that they couldn't have a certain opinion.. people can believe what they want afaic (everyone makes sense of the world as best they can). But I can evaluate their opinions and, likewise, I expect mine to be open season for evaluation as well.. especially in an open forum such as this where debate and discussion are encouraged. Admitting I'm wrong about something is a pleasure because it means I learned something. You've actually helped me do that more than once (re: Burmistrov), so thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketHoquet View Post
Exactly (although I prefer challenging over ridiculing and dismissing). Even though "opinions" are in the realm of subjectivity, as discussed above, in my experience everyone who has publicly expressed their opinion has felt that it says something concrete about reality. People normally go to the "well it's my opinion and opinions can be different" defense when they feel their opinion isn't defensible but aren't ready to admit it.
Beautifully written and well laid out. Remind me not to get in a debate with you because Marquess of Queensbury rules are not I sense I would get "me arse handed to me" (he says with a slight Cockney slang)

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Old
03-31-2014, 12:10 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Beautifully written and well laid out. Remind me not to get in a debate with you because Marquess of Queensbury rules are not I sense I would get "me arse handed to me" (he says with a slight Cockney slang)
Ah thank ya, though I think you give me too much credit. I tip my hat nonetheless good sir.

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Old
03-31-2014, 01:02 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
I wonder why RR didn't post Pavs SV% over his last 6 games. Hint: at .884, it ain't pretty. A bit disingenuous if he posted Montoya's and not Pav's over the last 6.
I don't know what his intention was, but what makes me interested in Monty's last 6 games is that Pavelec was out, and the games were consecutive (i.e. it gives us a bit better idea of what Monty can do when given the starting gig). We all know what we think of Pavs, but seeing as we may (hopefully) be looking for a new starter for next year, it would be good to get a read on our own current #2, to get the ball rolling on some decision making.

The home/road thing did surprise me with how Pavs' numbers actually weren't bad on the road. What doesn't surprise me, is that it pretty much tells that he performs way worse when the pressure is on (in front of the home crowd).

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Old
03-31-2014, 09:16 AM
  #240
Howard Chuck
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Just my take on the stats side of things.... I really enjoy having people take the time to put these together, and it provides me with another point of reference during and after a game. I simply take that information and pack it away in the back of my head while watching.

Enstrom is always a popular example. I get so frustrated with Toby as he takes his time, gets stuck on our boards by forecheckers or takes so much time in a one goal game with 30 seconds left. But, his stats always look good. So I have to believe that he is doing a good job, regardless of the poor decisions that I "think" he makes.

Maybe the point is that he could be even better with a few changes?

Who knows, I'll take all of the information I have that makes the game fun. If it's not fun, I won't do it. I have enough of spreadsheets and stats at work, so don't want to do any of that during a game, but it's interesting to read it afterward.

Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. It's a fast game with so many variables and split second decisions, that anything could happen on any given night.

Maybe this is the reason why we are surprised on Draft days sometimes as well? Stats show historical data that we think may be repeated, while scouting tries to take into account intangibles that may work for the future? Why don't we simply take the highest scorer in the draft, or the highest this or the highest that?

Somewhere in the middle is the sweet spot, and there is use for both. But honestly, I just like to watch the game and leave the work to someone else

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Old
03-31-2014, 10:49 AM
  #241
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I'm the same way with Enstrom. My eyes hate what they see with him much of the time, but the stats tell a different story so I'm conflicted. My fear though is that if the Jets ever do get into the post season, Enstrom is going to be a huge (well...tiny) weak point that opponents will exploit mercilessly...

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Old
03-31-2014, 12:04 PM
  #242
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I DONT KNOW WHAT WE`RE YELLING ABOUT

heh

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