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Drouin to Vancouver

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Old
03-22-2017, 08:17 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by THE Green Man View Post
Not gonna lie this is one of the best analogies I've seen in a while on here. I wouldn't assume that the cap will go up either, with Vegas creating 23 new jobs the players may not choose to up the cap this year, we will have to wait and see. The Kucherov contract was honestly gold for you guys in the sense where Stevie Y can say if he only got this much, there's no way that any of the 3 others will be paid more etc.
It worked out well for this deal, but Kucherov will have Yzerman/TB over a barrel when his deal is up. Kucherov took a big one for the team on this deal. The entire league knows he could have made 6-7 easy and no one likely bats an eye. To sign for under $5M is an enormous discount.

I assume Kucherov's next contract discussion will be him in a room with a single pen and a contract that has Yzerman's signature already on it and a big blank spot where it has his salary.

That's going to be the test that could honestly shape the championship window of this franchise.

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03-22-2017, 10:38 AM
  #102
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When comparing stats how has no one brought up drouin getting 1 minute more per game on average of power play time over horvat? Neither team does this and their values are very close right now.

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03-22-2017, 10:46 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Butchered View Post
How do you spin the fact that Horvat played 82 games of 17+ ATOI last year while Drouin hasn't averaged over 15 until this year?

They've produced similarly to this point, yes. Drouin is 3 points back in 8 less GP. It's likely he continues to close the gap this season and will continue to do so in the future.

But hey, sure. If it makes you feel better, they're very similar right now.
Horvat also takes on a lot of the defensive responsibilities, defensive zone faceoffs and PK, I'm assuming Drouin is used more in the offensive zone.

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03-22-2017, 11:00 AM
  #104
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I don't think TB drafted Drouin for his defensive prowess.

Look, Horvat is a good young player. I never said he wasn't. He is currently very similar to Drouin in production. He will not be in the future. Will he be a better player in the defensive end and on the PK? Sure.

Will he come anywhere near Drouin offensive numbers in the future assuming both reach potential? No.

Do you value defensive ability while being able to chip in offensively? By all means, get yourself a Horvat.

Do you want elite offensive numbers and ability? Get yourself a Drouin.

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03-22-2017, 11:23 AM
  #105
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Yup and until drouin reaches this magical potential their value is very close to even, horvat also has just as much chance of becoming prime Bergeron as drouin does of reaching his full potential, like I said neither team makes this deal 1 for 1. Lock thread.

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03-22-2017, 11:47 AM
  #106
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Yup and until drouin reaches this magical potential their value is very close to even, horvat also has just as much chance of becoming prime Bergeron as drouin does of reaching his full potential, like I said neither team makes this deal 1 for 1. Lock thread.

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03-22-2017, 02:26 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butchered View Post
I don't think TB drafted Drouin for his defensive prowess.

Look, Horvat is a good young player. I never said he wasn't. He is currently very similar to Drouin in production. He will not be in the future. Will he be a better player in the defensive end and on the PK? Sure.

Will he come anywhere near Drouin offensive numbers in the future assuming both reach potential? No.

Do you value defensive ability while being able to chip in offensively? By all means, get yourself a Horvat.

Do you want elite offensive numbers and ability? Get yourself a Drouin.
I wouldn't consider 50-60 points "chipping in"

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03-22-2017, 02:35 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Butchered View Post
I don't think TB drafted Drouin for his defensive prowess.

Look, Horvat is a good young player. I never said he wasn't. He is currently very similar to Drouin in production. He will not be in the future. Will he be a better player in the defensive end and on the PK? Sure.

Will he come anywhere near Drouin offensive numbers in the future assuming both reach potential? No.

Do you value defensive ability while being able to chip in offensively? By all means, get yourself a Horvat.

Do you want elite offensive numbers and ability? Get yourself a Drouin.
Drouin may have a higher offensive skill set but he's no guarantee to reach that in the NHL. Claiming it's a fact that Horvat won't keep up to Drouins number in the future is bias, we don't see any proof of that, infact given that one is putting up similar numbers well taking defensive responsibility and doesn't have the other highly skilled players the other has might say differently.

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03-22-2017, 03:49 PM
  #109
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Horvat has the defensive side of the game down, plays center, and honestly has carried players like Baertschi to break out seasons. Drouin is fantastic and has all the potential in the world, but this is like fighting over Kane vs. Toews. Totally different sets of criteria and benefits, and it's impossible to say objectively, in every situation, that one is better or more valuable than the other.

Ok, this will either reel things in or add gasoline to the fire, but what assets from Vancouver, outside of Horvat, could be packaged for Drouin? Juolevi? Demko? This year's first? Tanev?

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03-22-2017, 06:30 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Horvat has the defensive side of the game down, plays center, and honestly has carried players like Baertschi to break out seasons. Drouin is fantastic and has all the potential in the world, but this is like fighting over Kane vs. Toews. Totally different sets of criteria and benefits, and it's impossible to say objectively, in every situation, that one is better or more valuable than the other.

Ok, this will either reel things in or add gasoline to the fire, but what assets from Vancouver, outside of Horvat, could be packaged for Drouin? Juolevi? Demko? This year's first? Tanev?
None of those, would you take any of those pieces for horvat? Why would Tampa for drouin?

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03-22-2017, 06:40 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by nuxnuxnux View Post
None of those, would you take any of those pieces for horvat? Why would Tampa for drouin?
A number two D and a (likely) top 5 pick? I'd consider if I also had Palat, Johnson, Stamkos and Kucherov on the roster.

I'm not saying I'd be on board, but if there isn't some sort of package, why are Lightning fans even responding to this thread?

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03-23-2017, 07:13 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by iFan View Post
Drouin may have a higher offensive skill set but he's no guarantee to reach that in the NHL. Claiming it's a fact that Horvat won't keep up to Drouins number in the future is bias, we don't see any proof of that, infact given that one is putting up similar numbers well taking defensive responsibility and doesn't have the other highly skilled players the other has might say differently.
He's a human highlight reel, the points are bound to come.

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03-23-2017, 07:14 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
A number two D and a (likely) top 5 pick? I'd consider if I also had Palat, Johnson, Stamkos and Kucherov on the roster.

I'm not saying I'd be on board, but if there isn't some sort of package, why are Lightning fans even responding to this thread?
Tanevs salary is an issue for us.

I'd much rather trade Johnson or Palat.

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03-23-2017, 08:52 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by The Drop View Post
ya no thanks

Horvat > Drouin
only in vancouver

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Old
03-23-2017, 12:41 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by TheLegend27 View Post
Tanevs salary is an issue for us.

I'd much rather trade Johnson or Palat.
Both are free agents though, are they not? Would we be talking about a sign and trade, are they RFA, or would we be discussing rights? I'm not saying there's no interest, but the price definitely isn't the same to is as it would be for Drouin either. What would be the situation and asking price for either?

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03-23-2017, 06:48 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by THE Green Man View Post
Just curious what Tampa fans would want. I doubt he's moved at all with how Yzerman held onto him originally after the situation last year but what would it take? I would assume Palat is the odd man out if an RFA needs to be moved but Drouin is the one that interests me from a Canucks POV.

Tanev + ?
Two firsts, a second and third-round picks.

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03-23-2017, 06:55 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Both are free agents though, are they not? Would we be talking about a sign and trade, are they RFA, or would we be discussing rights? I'm not saying there's no interest, but the price definitely isn't the same to is as it would be for Drouin either. What would be the situation and asking price for either?
They are both RFA.

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03-24-2017, 12:09 AM
  #118
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I was actually being serious. Don't ask for him
Intimidating.

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Old
03-24-2017, 01:36 AM
  #119
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Intimidating.
Glad you feel that way

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03-24-2017, 12:27 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by nuxnuxnux View Post
Yup and until drouin reaches this magical potential their value is very close to even, horvat also has just as much chance of becoming prime Bergeron as drouin does of reaching his full potential, like I said neither team makes this deal 1 for 1. Lock thread.
Nope.

The issue is that very few players show the ability to consistently pull off moves and plays like Drouin is doing right now. Drouin only needs to become slightly more consistent to put him into that top tier of offensive players. Drouin is currently at .75 PPG and seems to be getting more consistent.

Horvat is a great young centre, but his skill set is far more common. At .65 points per game, he really hasn't done anything to show he can become elite. He looks like a solid future high end 2nd C or low end first C.

In short, there's nothing "magical" about Drouin reaching his potential. He has already shown moves than typically only elite players have. He has performed them fairly consistently too.

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03-24-2017, 12:33 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Horvat has the defensive side of the game down, plays center, and honestly has carried players like Baertschi to break out seasons. Drouin is fantastic and has all the potential in the world, but this is like fighting over Kane vs. Toews. Totally different sets of criteria and benefits, and it's impossible to say objectively, in every situation, that one is better or more valuable than the other.

Ok, this will either reel things in or add gasoline to the fire, but what assets from Vancouver, outside of Horvat, could be packaged for Drouin? Juolevi? Demko? This year's first? Tanev?
How is Baertschi having a breakout season? He's 24 years old and has 33 points in 61 games or .54 PPG. He's always been around .5 PPG and still is.

I'm also curious how a player who is -42 in 222 games "has the defensive side of the game down". He's a ways away from the Selke right now.

Horvat is a great young player, but not in the same class as Drouin. Nobody thinks he is but Canucks fans.

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03-24-2017, 02:27 PM
  #122
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How is Baertschi having a breakout season? He's 24 years old and has 33 points in 61 games or .54 PPG. He's always been around .5 PPG and still is.

I'm also curious how a player who is -42 in 222 games "has the defensive side of the game down". He's a ways away from the Selke right now.

Horvat is a great young player, but not in the same class as Drouin. Nobody thinks he is but Canucks fans.
Considering he was labelled as a career AHLer, half a point per game is a breakout.

Did you just use plus/minus to evaluate a defensive player and not use any context? That's a brutal way to make a judgement, I'm guessing you don't watch much Horvat based on that. Also, my comments were strictly meant as Drouin vs Horvat.

Drouin is fantastic at every level he's played At, but he's one year behind Horvat as far as professional seasons go, and they've put up similar numbers, with Horvat playing with....well you saw what I thought of Baertschi as his most frequent linemate.


Last edited by Cogburn: 03-24-2017 at 04:57 PM.
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03-24-2017, 02:49 PM
  #123
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Considering he was labelled as a career AHLer, half a point per game is a breakout.

Did you just use plus/minus to evaluate a defensive player and not use any context? That's a brutal way to make a judgement, I'm guessing you don't watch my Horvat based on that. Also, my comments were strictly meant as Drouin vs Horvat.

Drouin is fantastic at every level he's played At, but he's one year behind Horvat as far as professional seasons go, and they've put up similar numbers, with Horvat playing with....well you saw what I thought of Baertschi as his most frequent lineage.
Baertschi has always been a .5 ppg NHL player. The questions concerning his game are with the other parts. A .5 ppg player who only plays top 6 and is not defensively responsible is a border line NHLer.

As for the Drouin / Horvat comparison, no outside of Vancouver is picking Horvat here. Drouin is playing better now and his ceiling is higher. I agree that +/- is far from perfect, but you're talking about comparing Horvat to Selke level defensive players. Drouin being a year behind in NHL development but outproducing Horvat hurts your argument, not helps it.

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03-24-2017, 05:02 PM
  #124
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Baertschi has always been a .5 ppg NHL player. The questions concerning his game are with the other parts. A .5 ppg player who only plays top 6 and is not defensively responsible is a border line NHLer.

As for the Drouin / Horvat comparison, no outside of Vancouver is picking Horvat here. Drouin is playing better now and his ceiling is higher. I agree that +/- is far from perfect, but you're talking about comparing Horvat to Selke level defensive players. Drouin being a year behind in NHL development but outproducing Horvat hurts your argument, not helps it.
I compared Drouin and Horvat. I used Toews name not as comparison to Horvat, but in saying his success has been measured not by points, like Kane, but no one will say either are bad players. Much in the same way Horvat and Drouin will be measured by different standards. If I'm comparing Horvat to Toews, then I'm comparing Drouin to Kane, and both entirely fail to measure up. That was my only comparison, we drafted Horvat for two way play and leadership, not scoring.

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03-24-2017, 05:30 PM
  #125
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How is Baertschi having a breakout season? He's 24 years old and has 33 points in 61 games or .54 PPG. He's always been around .5 PPG and still is.

I'm also curious how a player who is -42 in 222 games "has the defensive side of the game down". He's a ways away from the Selke right now.

Horvat is a great young player, but not in the same class as Drouin. Nobody thinks he is but Canucks fans.
Lol he's played three years in the league, and two of those teams have been steaming hot garbage

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