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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XVI

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Old
08-14-2012, 09:16 PM
  #1026
Mancini0518
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Originally Posted by Johnnyduke View Post
There have been players before Pedroia in which fans have said the same thing and they ended up being traded at some point.
Prime example being Nomar, but i just can't see him being traded. Especially not over Bobby Valentine

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08-14-2012, 09:17 PM
  #1027
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Originally Posted by Johnnyduke View Post
How many days off does Josh Beckett have in a calendar year? You don't honestly believe it's 18, do you? And these Cape Leaguers aren't being paid (I don't think) and obviously not being paid millions. Fans don't and shouldn't have any sympathy for someone like Josh Beckett in that regard.



Maybe, maybe not. I'd just prefer to see a group of players that will actually give the guy a chance.
He definitely gets more than 18 off in a full year, but I thought he was talking exclusively about the season. Plus, for most players, it isn't just fun and games in the offseason. It is not 6 months off like people would have you believe. A ton of them undergo procedures (major and minor) and have to rehab the entire time and the rest have to stay in tip top shape (for the most part- although this one doesn't necessarily apply to Beckett I would admit)

And you are correct in that Cape Leaguers don't get paid.

I'm not happy with the way Beckett keeps in shape, but to blame him for golfing on an off day is asinine. He had no injury. Just tightness. And trust me, I've pitched plenty in my time and have gone golfing the day after with a sore arm. Literally nothing bad can happen. This instance was a case of the media just needing something to ***** about and, from what I can tell, deliberately overlooking what was really going on in that situation (Cook's opt out)

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08-14-2012, 09:17 PM
  #1028
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
...i know.

i'm not arguing with you.

i'm questioning why a team who has a good to great core wants to ditch the core for an average manager.
Good to great core talent wise...I'll give you that. And how's that working out for this team? It's not just about what talent they have on paper. This is simply not a good/great core of players. I don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion.

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if those players are better than the ones who are getting shipped out, sure.

if not, if there's a power struggle between good/great players and a manager who doesn't fit in with the style of the team...the manager goes.

how many times has it been said. "you can't fire the players! hahaha" right? there have been many a manager or coach who hasn't deserved the axe who has gotten it. such is life. valentine is not a fit for this team. if you get rid of him and still have problems, by all means. but instead of "blowing up the core" like everyone wants to do, you get rid of the easiest thing there is to get rid of; the manager that doesn't fit.
And if the same exact scenario didn't come up last year where the manager was scapegoated, I'd be all for changing the manager.

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08-14-2012, 09:18 PM
  #1029
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Originally Posted by Mancini0518 View Post
To be honest i would have kept Beltre/ V mart and never traded Casey Kelly but thats just me
I would have kept Beltre too, but Kelly had declining peripherals when we dealt him. He had an off year last year and has been hurt this year, so I am glad he was dealt when he had value.

V-Mart was kind of meh...I was indifferent.

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08-14-2012, 09:21 PM
  #1030
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Originally Posted by Johnnyduke View Post
Good to great core talent wise...I'll give you that. And how's that working out for this team? It's not just about what talent they have on paper. This is simply not a good/great core of players. I don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion.



And if the same exact scenario didn't come up last year where the manager was scapegoated, I'd be all for changing the manager.
if they fired the manager and replaced him with a capable manager and things were the same, fine.

they found a manager who was worse in just about every capacity, alienated the room quickly and never had them past spring training. now he's free of blame?

there's a lot wrong in boston. getting rid of the core isn't how you fix it at this stage of the game. it's a hell of a lot easier to replace a manager than it is to replace the core of the team.

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08-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #1031
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Originally Posted by Johnnyduke View Post
I didn't say it wasn't common or that he was injured. Just don't expect fans to accept the fact that he had to miss a start but was good enough to golf.

Blame the media for getting things wrong/making things up, but don't blame them for reporting what they see/hear. It's up to you to determine if it's a story or not.
I don't think he had to miss the start at all. It was more so an organizational decision. Not his. If he wasn't injured, then what is the problem? The answer is the ****** media combined with ****** fans who just like to see problems where there are not problems. They are not objective.

Same thing happens during the B's season. The fans see what they want to see, especially if it happens to a whipping boy (we have seen it with Wideman, Corvo, Pouliot, etc). Some of it is deserved, but a fair portion of it is blind, passionate, and intense disdain for the "offending" player. And that is personally what I think happened with Beckett in that instance

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08-14-2012, 09:26 PM
  #1032
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A 19 game winner, a 20 game winner, 30/30 center fielder, MVP 2nd baseman, 40 HR 1st baseman, and four time 50+ steal left fielder is a top 5 core no doubt. The talent is not the issue here

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08-14-2012, 09:26 PM
  #1033
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Originally Posted by Mancini0518 View Post
Prime example being Nomar, but i just can't see him being traded. Especially not over Bobby Valentine
Wait a minute now. I'm not saying it's either Pedroia or Valentine and that I would take Valentine. I'm taking the manager out of the equation--no matter who it was/is/will be. Bottom line for me is that baseball players should be expected to perform even if they don't like the manager. If they can't do that, then that's a red flag IMO and I wouldn't rule out exploring the option of trading them.

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He definitely gets more than 18 off in a full year, but I thought he was talking exclusively about the season. Plus, for most players, it isn't just fun and games in the offseason. It is not 6 months off like people would have you believe. A ton of them undergo procedures (major and minor) and have to rehab the entire time and the rest have to stay in tip top shape (for the most part- although this one doesn't necessarily apply to Beckett I would admit)

And you are correct in that Cape Leaguers don't get paid.

I'm not happy with the way Beckett keeps in shape, but to blame him for golfing on an off day is asinine. He had no injury. Just tightness. And trust me, I've pitched plenty in my time and have gone golfing the day after with a sore arm. Literally nothing bad can happen. This instance was a case of the media just needing something to ***** about and, from what I can tell, deliberately overlooking what was really going on in that situation (Cook's opt out)
You don't have to bring up other examples that aren't direct comparisons. Just deal with what happened. Fans see that Josh Beckett is missing a start yet is out on the golf course before his next start. Whether or not you think that's an issue, I have no problem with fans who do. I certainly don't think it's asinine. He has plenty of time to golf in the offseason or on various other days throughout the baseball season. Just like I think Lackey stuffing beers in his pocket in front of the media was in poor taste, that's how I feel here. You can't have it both ways. Either Beckett had tightness or he didn't. If he did, I can understand fans being frustrated. You're telling me he couldn't have skipped golf that one day?

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08-14-2012, 09:36 PM
  #1034
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
if they fired the manager and replaced him with a capable manager and things were the same, fine.

they found a manager who was worse in just about every capacity, alienated the room quickly and never had them past spring training. now he's free of blame?

there's a lot wrong in boston. getting rid of the core isn't how you fix it at this stage of the game. it's a hell of a lot easier to replace a manager than it is to replace the core of the team.
I don't know that Valentine isn't a capable manager. That's where I disagree. He's certainly not without blame, but it sure as hell would be nice if they gave him a chance. And even if they didn't, teams have won while hating managers/coaches before. This team hasn't done that. They simply carried over what happened at the end of last year and made it worse. And while there is a lot of talent, it's clear to me we've clearly overrated it. I'm done holding out hope for this talented bunch to turn things around. They are what they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDJ View Post
I don't think he had to miss the start at all. It was more so an organizational decision. Not his. If he wasn't injured, then what is the problem? The answer is the ****** media combined with ****** fans who just like to see problems where there are not problems. They are not objective.

Same thing happens during the B's season. The fans see what they want to see, especially if it happens to a whipping boy (we have seen it with Wideman, Corvo, Pouliot, etc). Some of it is deserved, but a fair portion of it is blind, passionate, and intense disdain for the "offending" player. And that is personally what I think happened with Beckett in that instance
OK, we can disagree on that. I don't think the organization was ultimately behind it. But let's say you're right...why couldn't the organization come out and explain it? Why did Beckett have to act so defiant rather than give a rational explanation of what was going on? I can't speak for everyone, but he's get a hell of a lot more respect from me if that happened. The media reports. By all means, call them out for getting things wrong/making things up but when it comes to the reaction of fans, that's not on the media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancini0518 View Post
A 19 game winner, a 20 game winner, 30/30 center fielder, MVP 2nd baseman, 40 HR 1st baseman, and four time 50+ steal left fielder is a top 5 core no doubt. The talent is not the issue here
I agree, the talent on paper is not the issue. Why then has this team sucked under two different managers?

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Old
08-14-2012, 09:44 PM
  #1035
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How does tampa keep dominating? The "they pick first every year" reasoning has expired. Its time we start blaming scouts. Sox may have worst farm in AL east

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08-14-2012, 09:44 PM
  #1036
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This team is tearing us apart!

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Old
08-14-2012, 09:48 PM
  #1037
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How does tampa keep dominating? The "they pick first every year" reasoning has expired. Its time we start blaming scouts. Sox may have worst farm in AL east
it's not only the farm, it's at the professional level too.

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08-14-2012, 09:57 PM
  #1038
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Is there any chance at all that Lucchino is not running this team next year?

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08-14-2012, 10:04 PM
  #1039
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Is there any chance at all that Lucchino is not running this team next year?
Season tickets take a nose dive this offseason?

He decides he can work somewhere else and not deal with the **** he helped create?

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08-14-2012, 10:09 PM
  #1040
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Season tickets take a nose dive this offseason?

He decides he can work somewhere else and not deal with the **** he helped create?
Mazz was saying the other day that he doesn't think Lucchino signed the extension past this year. Might have just been spitballing though.

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08-14-2012, 10:10 PM
  #1041
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Mazz was saying the other day that he doesn't think Lucchino signed the extension past this year. Might have just been spitballing though.
Hope is a good thing.....

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Old
08-14-2012, 10:13 PM
  #1042
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How does tampa keep dominating? The "they pick first every year" reasoning has expired. Its time we start blaming scouts. Sox may have worst farm in AL east
We actually have a top notch farm system. Tampa keeps dominating because they have pitching every year for the next 7-8 years. And a couple of impact hitters and base swipers. Plus, the best manager in the game and a great clubhouse have a lot to do with it. Chemistry breeds winning as they say.

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08-14-2012, 10:16 PM
  #1043
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We actually have a top notch farm system. Tampa keeps dominating because they have pitching every year for the next 7-8 years. And a couple of impact hitters and base swipers. Plus, the best manager in the game and a great clubhouse have a lot to do with it. Chemistry breeds winning as they say.
they also have a forward-thinking gm who has autonomy to do as he wishes (as long as he stays within his set budget) and a manager who is capable of seeing the forest for the trees and understanding how to utilize his roster to its fullest potential.

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Old
08-14-2012, 10:18 PM
  #1044
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Daniel Bard update.

0.1 IP
0 hits
4 BB
2 ER

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08-14-2012, 10:20 PM
  #1045
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Tampa also suckers non Boras guys like Longoria and Moore into team friendly deals

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08-14-2012, 10:40 PM
  #1046
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Tampa also suckers non Boras guys like Longoria and Moore into team friendly deals
Lester and Pedroia signed deals that at the time everyone said were great for the Sox.

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08-14-2012, 10:51 PM
  #1047
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Lester and Pedroia signed deals that at the time everyone said were great for the Sox.
Absoluely. You could even include the youkilis deal into the team friendly bundle.

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08-14-2012, 10:52 PM
  #1048
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Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Francona was back as the manager next year. This entire season makes me wonder if the players feel like; "You don't know what you got, till it's gone."

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08-14-2012, 11:57 PM
  #1049
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Tito could become the new Billy Martin to Larry's Steinbrenner.

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08-14-2012, 11:57 PM
  #1050
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Closing this down.


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1246719

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