I haven't seen too many Habs games this year and I know they have 2 points more than the leafs,but,how different is this Habs team from the team that finished last in the east in 2012?
I haven't seen too many Habs games this year and I know they have 2 points more than the leafs,but,how different is this Habs team from the team that finished last in the east in 2012?
Main differences are:
-A former top 10 dman playing like he used to.
-A new team identity. There are actually gritty players who can chip a goal here and there and wear the opposition down. No longer defeatists who give up after trailing by 2 goals.
-The defense is clicking together and the emergence of Diaz
-Bourque playing to the level he's capable of
-Galchenyuk and Gallhager
This is what's been happening so far in 9 games. Of course a lot can change in the next few weeks.
I still think last year was a fluke. Montreal had no business near the bottom of the league. They were always a team finishing 6-10th. Last year was an anomaly.
Based on the posts of yours that I've read in this thread, a tip of the hat to you, sir.
You appear to be a very classy poster who doesn't engage in the "My father is bigger than your father" type of arguments.
That's a very refreshing breath of fresh air.
thank you very much
I just find that a rivalry doesn't need to be filled with delusional overrating and underrating all the time. Sure being a Leaf fan I'm bred to hate your team that doesn't mean I hate you as people lol its always good to have intelligible and meaningful conversation it furthers your perspective on things. There's too much drivel on both sides and seeing some of the older leafers hate on the habs and old Habs hate on the leafs its different because they still have mutual respect for one another and I just try to emulate that.
I haven't seen too many Habs games this year and I know they have 2 points more than the leafs,but,how different is this Habs team from the team that finished last in the east in 2012?
2 more points in 2 less games, just to be clear.
We're better because:
- Markov and Gionta are back
- We're healthy
- Bourque has regained his old form
- No french-language media circus
- PP has returned to being dominant
- Emelin and Diaz are better
- Prust and White added grit to our lineup
- Galchenyuk and Gallagher are doing great as rookies
The biggest things that hurt us last year was our lack of scoring depth and injuries. Now that we're healthy and have 3 lines that can threaten offensively, plus a healthy D corps instead of the revolving door we had last year makes us a much better team.
2. Gallagher has 13 goals in his first PRO season (NHL + AHL)
3. Subban >> Gardiner
4. Plekanec is 30. Thats not even inflating stats, you're just flat out making them up here you know we can just google these things, right?
2. Why is that supposed to impress me? That is 13 goals in 43 games. Those are numbers similar to Matt Frattin, who the original poster called "not a top 6 player".
3. Subban > Gardiner. But there is a very strong likelihood that Rielly > Subban. And PK Subban is a very similar player to Dion Phaneuf if you ask me.
4. I don't know why I thought I read he was 32 I swear I saw born in a different year. I don't even know, haha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KadoCH
1. I purposely underrated Kessel and didn't include people like Markov, Cole, and Gionta because of age OR contract situations and I called Pacioretty a POTENTIAL first line power forward. If you read my first post you would know that. Kessel is an FA next season and what are the odds he stays in TO 40%? Kulemin has 1 season of more than 40 points what do you take from a 26 year old who's 2nd best season is 38 points and his last season 28?
2. I don't even need to address. You know if you google "Brendan Gallagher hockeydb" you could find these stats your self
3. Is an absolute Joke. Rielly could be the next Tom Hickey for all we know and you would take a 1 season rookie and an unknown commodity over 50+ min a game duo under long term team control?
4. Plek is 30 and has proven a ton more than Grabovski. Like I said from the beginning I'm looking for a core group of top 6 guys. I'd take a guy at 30 with a track record like Pleks and hope he can be a 2nd line centre at 33-34 on my cup contending team. Grabovski with his two career 50 point seasons doesn't look like near as good a bet as Plek.
1. So then you are admitting you underrated the Leafs players to prove your point? That's called "skewing the data". And indeed Patches is a POTENTIAL first-line power forward. However, so is JVR. He is thriving under Carlyle. 6 goals in 10 games, and creating offense. He does not look at all out of place on a first line. This gives the Leafs 3 first line wingers in Kessel, JVR, and Lupul.
3. so if I go and predict my prospects to turn out well it means he could turn out to be the next Thomas Hickey. Yet Gallagher and Galchenyuk are showing that they are going to be stars You have to objectively look at all prospects under the same light there bud. 50 mins + a game? Are they goalies? You are lying to yourself if you think Gardiner was a flash in the pan rookie. Go youtube him, and you'll see the skill he has when he has the puck on his stick. Him being out with an injury right now is one of the biggest reasons that the Leafs powerplay has been bad so far.
4. Because I'm able to recognize that my opponent may have an edge in a category (unlike you apparently) I will admit that Plek is a better 2nd line centerman that Grabovski. However, the edge is slight, unlike the wide gap that you are suggesting. I know you have a distorted image in your head of Grabovski while he was still on the Habs, but maybe you should actually watch his play objectively before you make any more silly statements.
And again, we still haven't even discussed Kadri, who you omitted from your posts, whom is showing that he's going to be a great player in this league
Your being a homer right now and im too lazy to argue. Your whole post is usuing bias to create an argument. Grabovski has been the better player between he and Plekanec over the last 3 years yet you only cite Grabovski's age while Pleks is older?
JVR can contribute as a 40-50 point player, thats 2nd line production and thus far in Toronto he has shown he can exceed it.
Frattin - late bloomer, you cant deny he has the potential just because he was a 24 year old rookie
Kulemin is a top 6 player, so far production wise and all around game he has justified 2 years ago wasnt a fluke
Kessel can be re-signed, and if not replaced.. We wont let him walk
The leafs D currently sucks but they have players in the system that have the potential to round out a solid top 4
Reimer is 24, goalies do not reach their prime, or even break out for that matter, until their late 20s. The fact that he has played reasonably well and can round out another .920 season shows he has the potential to be a solid #1 for years.
The comment about Grabovski being better than Plekanec is based in hilarity. Two of the last three seasons Plek has led the Habs in points by more than 10 and also there most dangerous PKer. To top it off he's also out scored Grabo himself by a good chunk those 3 seasons.
Top 60 forwards are typically 55-60 pts. JVR brings size so 50 points would be OK 2nd line production, but given his career high of 40 pts he requires some development.
Frattin has potential but someone calling a 25 year old with 22 career points a 2nd liner on a team you want to become a Cup contender is a bit of a stretch.
Kulemin needs more then 38 and 28 point seasons to say one 60 point year wasn't a fluke. Player reputation doesn't win cups its production. Good player but if he produces like a 3rd liner then he's a 2nd liner by reputation only.
Regarding D, my post was about players you could build around on the current roster that will contribute when both teams next wave of prospects hit so they may but I'll just leave it. Gardiner has top 4 potential.
If nothing changes this season or next I expect Kessel will be dealt and that SHOULD pay some long term divdends. This is the most likely scenario because I don't see the leafs getting to true contender status in the next 3 years. Holding onto Kessel would be wasteful IMHO. Though if the leafs get a top 5 pick this season keeping Kessel and a solid pick should give the Leafs 2/3 of a top line.
Reimer too many question marks. The panel is still out on him for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomos2
Not a smart proclammation to make with absolute certainty, but I can see the logic behind the comment. Based on past trades involving the leafs (and Bruins), I've learned not to put too much value on taking proven players over two pretty good prospects that appear to have high potential that could end up biting you in the *** in the future. Not a clear 10/10 but depending on the state and the youth of the team, 6.5/10 is my preference IMO.
Never called Rielly a bust, but go look at the 2004-2009 drafts and the D taken in the top 10. Of them how many would you honestly say you would take over PK. Maybe 4/18? The odds are not in the leafs favour yet 6.5/10 just looks ridiculous for two unknown commodities vs one of the best young D's in the league and a team leader top 4 Dman signed long term to a fair contract.
Never called Rielly a bust, but go look at the 2004-2009 drafts and the D taken in the top 10. Of them how many would you honestly say you would take over PK. Maybe 4/18? The odds are not in the leafs favour yet 6.5/10 just looks ridiculous for two unknown commodities vs one of the best young D's in the league and a team leader top 4 Dman signed long term to a fair contract.
And yet one consistent 30 scorer and one of the best young forwards at the time being traded for two unknown commodities (that now we know to be Seguin and Hamilton) wouldn't be ridiculous? (I know I'm discounting Knight). In the next few years, if Rielly and Gardiner end up having higher upside the Subban and Gorges, (which isn't really that ridiculous of a comment) who would look like the idiots making that trade? They're names don't mean much now, but in the future they probably will mean a lot. Everyone talks about the prospects/picks Toronto gave up: Neidermayer, Seguin, Hamilton, Rask etc. Would you really want to be the next GM in Toronto and make a decision like that?
Its common sense. Trade away young elite prospects and picks to get older talents. Interested in doing a fast rebuild. Where have I heard that before? Oh right, from the recently fired GM of the leafs.
Would you trade Galchenyuk for an established first line player like Corey Perry? Tell me the reason you wouldn't and you'll understand my argument.
And yet one consistent 30 scorer and one of the best young forwards at the time being traded for two unknown commodities (that now we know to be Seguin and Hamilton) wouldn't be ridiculous? (I know I'm discounting Knight). In the next few years, if Rielly and Gardiner end up having higher upside the Subban and Gorges, (which isn't really that ridiculous of a comment) who would look like the idiots making that trade? They're names don't mean much now, but in the future they probably will mean a lot. Everyone talks about the prospects/picks Toronto gave up: Neidermayer, Seguin, Hamilton, Rask etc. Would you really want to be the next GM in Toronto and make a decision like that?
Its common sense. Trade away young elite prospects and picks to get older talents. Interested in doing a fast rebuild. Where have I heard that before? Oh right, from the recently fired GM of the leafs.
Would you trade Galchenyuk for an established first line player like Corey Perry? Tell me the reason you wouldn't and you'll understand my argument.
The trade for Kessel is a perfectly sensible trade IF the team receiving him is one player away from becoming a cup contender. The Leafs weren't and that's why it was such a bad trade. If the picks ended up being 19th,24th, and 49th then its really not a bad trade at all. Burke's mistake was in evaluating his own team not in Kessel being a potential first line player who was 21.
Galchenyuk being traded for Perry is trading a 3rd overall draft pick for a pending FA when it appears the Habs look like they would be in better position for a playoff run next year. Dealing Rielly and Gardiner for Gorges and Subban would be trading two unknowns for two proven players under team control for 4 more years each. Not comparable situations at all.
The trade for Kessel is a perfectly sensible trade IF the team receiving him is one player away from becoming a cup contender. The Leafs weren't and that's why it was such a bad trade. If the picks ended up being 19th,24th, and 49th then its really not a bad trade at all. Burke's mistake was in evaluating his own team not in Kessel being a potential first line player who was 21.
Galchenyuk being traded for Perry is trading a 3rd overall draft pick for a pending FA when it appears the Habs look like they would be in better position for a playoff run next year. Dealing Rielly and Gardiner for Gorges and Subban would be trading two unknowns for two proven players under team control for 4 more years each. Not comparable situations at all.
Your bias is showing. Apparently you treat Galchenyuk as a third overall pick and Rielly as some unknown. Trading the 3rd overall pick is enough to deny the trade of a former Hart Trophy and Olympian (I wasn't taking his contract into account) while trading the 5th overall pick and the rookie named to the all rookie team last year is perfectly acceptable for two defenceman coming off of a less than stellar year? Right, there's no favourtism there
These are perfectly comparable and its only your homerism that is getting in the way of this.
I haven't seen too many Habs games this year and I know they have 2 points more than the leafs,but,how different is this Habs team from the team that finished last in the east in 2012?
True story: the Leafs finished only 2 points ahead of the team that finished last in the east.
The trade for Kessel is a perfectly sensible trade IF the team receiving him is one player away from becoming a cup contender. The Leafs weren't and that's why it was such a bad trade. If the picks ended up being 19th,24th, and 49th then its really not a bad trade at all. Burke's mistake was in evaluating his own team not in Kessel being a potential first line player who was 21.
The Kessel deal could have been justified by acquiring a #1C within a year. Instead he ******* around until ownership gave him the boot.
This thread is no longer about who's better the Leafs or Habs, but about people arguing about 6 players on either roster and their value.
With biases on both sides it is very hard to deduce these arguments, especially because a lot of the arguing has to do with prospects.
I really despise arguments that involve prospects who are not in the league yet. So much hype on kids so young, most never live up to their hype. The few that do tend to get eaten alive.
How can we have an argument about Galchenyuk vs. Rielly? Or Subban vs. Gardiner? There simply isn't enough evidence on both sides in order to make an informed decision. Obviously Subban has played in 162 games in the NHL and Gardiner 77. So between the two of them we have 239 games or 3 seasons of hockey. Subban has double the time of Gardiner. I can't even make a decision other than they both have done well in their early stages (very early) of their careers. Gardiner is out with a concussion, which worries me. It all means nothing however because predicting the future on small sample sizes is just like searching for a needle in a haystack.
Just relax on the prospect arguments, their not going to be solved in a day. Do we even know who's better yet, Hall or Seguin?
you know we can just google these things, right?
