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Old
09-21-2017, 03:51 PM
  #876
Pinkfloyd
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Originally Posted by M.C.G. 31 View Post
It was probably the back-to-back racist comments within 30 seconds that did it and spurred the chant, not the movie take.
I think most fans would just let the odd joke like that slide if it's a one-off or something like that. When they made it clear what they were doing, it was like okay no that's wrong. Come on now.

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09-21-2017, 04:11 PM
  #877
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Technically, you contradict your argument when you say you can be prejudice towards white people. Racism is being prejudiced towards people of other races. The only difference is that white people are the only people that are looked at as the oppressor rather than the oppressed even though there's plenty of historical evidence that shows white people being oppressed in different areas of the world. The problem though there is that generally those oppressed white people are oppressed by other white people. lol

The character itself isn't an issue although those who have problems with it generally attribute it to being a worn-out gimmick. It's what that character did that they have an issue with. Crowds boo the foreign gimmick because they have ALWAYS conditioned their audience to do that and almost never put these characters in a spot where they're designed to be cheered doing it. The only exception that even vaguely comes to mind is maybe ADR during his brief face run or Rey Mysterio to the Hispanic audience that they have.

As for your gray areas comment, just because you don't acknowledge their existence doesn't mean they don't exist. They do. You're just an absolutist that chooses not to deal with it in a meaningful way. You getting this far doesn't mean anything. Every living breathing human being is a born contradiction. That in itself includes having a gray area built into the person whether they acknowledge it or not.

I don't know how anyone can seriously sit there and say that they've never been offended by anything even just WWE has ever put out just out of principle to be able to legitimately argue it's not fair to say one set of offenses is okay and another isn't. That's like saying it should be fine for our criminal system to treat a petty crime like it's murder because they're both an offense and what's good for one is good for the other.
Well that's not the same because I was talking about things that effect large groups of people. Petty crime for the most part effects a small amount of people.

How is the character itself not an issue? I guarantee you Jinder doesn't walk around rolling out carpets before he walks into his house.

I've never been offended by anything WWE has done. I find they insult the vast majority of their viewers intelligence all the time, but who knows. I don't know each specific fan. And I don't make the money WWE does either, so I figure I could be wrong.

I choose not to tell with things in a meaningful way? That's not fair. I just choose to not be offended by every little thing and get my feathers rustled to the point that it's effecting my life. I'm against hurting people, but not in my entertainment. I guess maybe that's even a "gray area."

I don't get how it's okay that they conditioned some things and it's not a big deal though?

I just looked up the term absolutist by the way and I kind of hate you to the point where I hope your Pink Floyd collection dies a horrible death.

Ps. I'm not fully Caucasian either. I'm a (dog)mutt and proud of it.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I can agree that racism doesn't affect white people on the whole but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Agreed. White racism is on a more upward slope than many other ethnic groups.

That's not to say white racism is high, but it's most definitely more common now than 30 years ago.

But my whole discussion has been on the Entertainment aspect. Again, now that I know what "rook" means... that's way too far. I don't think the Mr. Miyagi thing was but that's me. But the rook thing is definitely "too real."

I didn't know what it meant since I'm not up to terms on my racial slang.


Last edited by Natey: 09-21-2017 at 04:25 PM.
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Old
09-21-2017, 04:22 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
RE: discrimination against white people, reverse racism

https://www.dailydot.com/via/reverse...-doesnt-exist/

This is an informative read that expresses a lot of what I want to type out better than I could.
Interesting read. Some points I agree with and some I do not agree with. Not going to break all that down on a wrestling forum as I'm trying hard to keep my comments as close to Entertainment and WWE as possible. I think breaking down that article would sway too far away from that.

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09-21-2017, 04:26 PM
  #879
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I still want to do my DNA test to confirm my Jewishness. My uncle did one and says were like 50%, which makes sense considering my Grandmas last name, my hairy body and curly hair when it gets long, and people saying I act sorta like Larry David, but much quieter.

It's all coming together now!
I always think of that name as Serbian in my mind. Was watch euro qualifying soccer and most of the players last names ended with that sound.

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09-21-2017, 04:26 PM
  #880
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all im gonna say on the matter is, in 2017 you probably shouldnt do jokes like that on TV. cause while some people will be fine with it, some wont. and its not only for those who are fine with it to decide whats okay

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09-21-2017, 04:48 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Natey View Post
Well that's not the same because I was talking about things that effect large groups of people. Petty crime for the most part effects a small amount of people.

How is the character itself not an issue? I guarantee you Jinder doesn't walk around rolling out carpets before he walks into his house.

I've never been offended by anything WWE has done. I find they insult the vast majority of their viewers intelligence all the time, but who knows. I don't know each specific fan. And I don't make the money WWE does either, so I figure I could be wrong.

I choose not to tell with things in a meaningful way? That's not fair. I just choose to not be offended by every little thing and get my feathers rustled to the point that it's effecting my life. I'm against hurting people, but not in my entertainment. I guess maybe that's even a "gray area."

I don't get how it's okay that they conditioned some things and it's not a big deal though?

I just looked up the term absolutist by the way and I kind of hate you to the point where I hope your Pink Floyd collection dies a horrible death.

Ps. I'm not fully Caucasian either. I'm a (dog)mutt and proud of it.


Agreed. White racism is on a more upward slope than many other ethnic groups.

That's not to say white racism is high, but it's most definitely more common now than 30 years ago.

But my whole discussion has been on the Entertainment aspect. Again, now that I know what "rook" means... that's way too far. I don't think the Mr. Miyagi thing was but that's me. But the rook thing is definitely "too real."

I didn't know what it meant since I'm not up to terms on my racial slang.
To the bolded, so does any number of certain things that offend people in entertainment.

How Jinder walks around the place or what he looks like isn't an issue. It's what that character just said that is the issue.

That line about insulting the intelligence of the audience is sort of a contradiction of not being offended. If you feel they insult the intelligence of the fans that you are a part of, you're taking offense to that. At the very least that is admitting there's a gray area in there.

That bit about choosing not to be offended by every little thing is a huge part of the problem because you marginalize others for taking offense and also you're equating each offense as if it is the same. They're not. Some are far worse than others. It's offensive to say that all Asians are good at math but it's far more offensive to call them any number of racial slurs.

As for the conditioning thing, nobody said that it was okay. It really isn't okay but that's what Vince has always done when it comes to foreign gimmicks. They're always put in heel positions and when they speak their foreign language it almost always comes after saying something with the intention of drawing heat. It quite simply is done to play on the tribalistic nature that is pretty much embedded in humans...especially those that aren't all that bright. It's a pretty basic psychological move.

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09-21-2017, 05:08 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
To the bolded, so does any number of certain things that offend people in entertainment.

How Jinder walks around the place or what he looks like isn't an issue. It's what that character just said that is the issue.

That line about insulting the intelligence of the audience is sort of a contradiction of not being offended. If you feel they insult the intelligence of the fans that you are a part of, you're taking offense to that. At the very least that is admitting there's a gray area in there.

That bit about choosing not to be offended by every little thing is a huge part of the problem because you marginalize others for taking offense and also you're equating each offense as if it is the same. They're not. Some are far worse than others. It's offensive to say that all Asians are good at math but it's far more offensive to call them any number of racial slurs.

As for the conditioning thing, nobody said that it was okay. It really isn't okay but that's what Vince has always done when it comes to foreign gimmicks. They're always put in heel positions and when they speak their foreign language it almost always comes after saying something with the intention of drawing heat. It quite simply is done to play on the tribalistic nature that is pretty much embedded in humans...especially those that aren't all that bright. It's a pretty basic psychological move.
Well Razor became a face pretty fast.

I don't marginalize anyone. That's actually offensive to me. I've made sure to point out plenty of times that each person is free to interpret things how they like and that they're entitled to their own opinion about touchy subjects. I would never purposely downplay someone's opinion, even if they're the type of person to downplay mine.

Small stereotypes like the math thing doesn't bug me. It's similar to the Miyagi thing. Racial slurs where you're purposely trying to hurt people isn't okay and will never be okay.

So it's okay to walk and act like a racial stereotype if you say no words? So if they made the Miyagi joke without saying the name it would be all good?

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09-21-2017, 05:44 PM
  #883
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Well Razor became a face pretty fast.

I don't marginalize anyone. That's actually offensive to me. I've made sure to point out plenty of times that each person is free to interpret things how they like and that they're entitled to their own opinion about touchy subjects. I would never purposely downplay someone's opinion, even if they're the type of person to downplay mine.

Small stereotypes like the math thing doesn't bug me. It's similar to the Miyagi thing. Racial slurs where you're purposely trying to hurt people isn't okay and will never be okay.

So it's okay to walk and act like a racial stereotype if you say no words? So if they made the Miyagi joke without saying the name it would be all good?
I don't see how Razor is a real comparable in this context. Razor never was used in the same manner is the standard foreign gimmick. The most non-English thing Razor would say is chico and machismo. lol

You just did marginalize people for being offended by things by saying it's every little thing.

In the Jinder promo, the Mr. Miyagi thing was purposely designed to harm the fans by saying that they would see he is that behind Shinsuke's back implying that the fans are all xenophobic. Are there some that are? Oh damn right there are but it's not everyone and there are significantly better ways to get the point across about the fans being jingoistic and prejudiced than by explicitly saying stereotypical things like that.

I don't see how Jinder is walking or acting like a racial stereotype. He's a walking/acting rich heel stereotype that has a foreign gimmick attached to it. I don't see how you can make the Miyagi joke w/o saying the name but the intent of that joke was to continue the theme of his promo which was saying that the fans will turn on him and be prejudiced by using things like the rook alike comment and the thinking that all Japanese people look like Mr. Miyagi. The only thing you could replace that with would be some other Japanese stereotype based on their looks and I don't see how that'd be okay.

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09-21-2017, 06:34 PM
  #884
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The "rook" thing is a good example of a stereotype that is so old and been generally flushed as un-PC, the younger generation doesn't realize it was a thing, therefore they don't know why anyone would be offended. (Although "South Park" has used it, maybe younger people didn't get that either) And I have no doubt that Vince McMahon knows what it is and think it's great comedy.

I come from Generation X where all those things started to age poorly, but we knew it existed. There's an old movie from the 60's called "Breakfast At Tiffany's" which is a classic, but has one ridiculous character of an Asian man played by Mickey Rooney with buck teeth and thick glasses running around talking like that. Every person my age I watched the movie with back in the early 90's would groan and be like "Oh....oh, no...." when he came on screen. Not enough to shut the movie off or storm out or anything, but enough to recognize it's awfully bigoted and totally from another time and wouldn't fly now. I think we've washed that stereotype so far away that now when people do it, a whole generation doesn't know what they're talking about and why it's supposed to be a heel move.

As far as Jinder, well, I suspect he knows he needs to make hay while the sun shines and as long as it isn't racist towards Punjabi culture, he's going to do it and claim innocence later.

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09-21-2017, 07:41 PM
  #885
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I don't see how Razor is a real comparable in this context. Razor never was used in the same manner is the standard foreign gimmick. The most non-English thing Razor would say is chico and machismo. lol

You just did marginalize people for being offended by things by saying it's every little thing.

In the Jinder promo, the Mr. Miyagi thing was purposely designed to harm the fans by saying that they would see he is that behind Shinsuke's back implying that the fans are all xenophobic. Are there some that are? Oh damn right there are but it's not everyone and there are significantly better ways to get the point across about the fans being jingoistic and prejudiced than by explicitly saying stereotypical things like that.

I don't see how Jinder is walking or acting like a racial stereotype. He's a walking/acting rich heel stereotype that has a foreign gimmick attached to it. I don't see how you can make the Miyagi joke w/o saying the name but the intent of that joke was to continue the theme of his promo which was saying that the fans will turn on him and be prejudiced by using things like the rook alike comment and the thinking that all Japanese people look like Mr. Miyagi. The only thing you could replace that with would be some other Japanese stereotype based on their looks and I don't see how that'd be okay.
That's ******** and you know it. Every little thing applies to me and me only. Something I think is little, you may think is huge. And vice versa. Trying to push that **** on me is just as bad as what you're trying to imply with Jinder.

Razor was 100% a racial stereotype and there's no denying that, as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I think all the points have been made here.. and now that we're throwing personal insults at me, I'm going to back away. Good day, sir.

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09-21-2017, 08:57 PM
  #886
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That's ******** and you know it. Every little thing applies to me and me only. Something I think is little, you may think is huge. And vice versa. Trying to push that **** on me is just as bad as what you're trying to imply with Jinder.

Razor was 100% a racial stereotype and there's no denying that, as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I think all the points have been made here.. and now that we're throwing personal insults at me, I'm going to back away. Good day, sir.
When used in the context you did, it's not difficult to see why people would interpret that as I did. That's typically how that particular phrasing is most often used. As for Razor, I don't agree that he was a racial stereotype. He certainly wasn't like how they have historically used foreign gimmicks throughout WWE history. He was a knockoff of Tony Montana more than he was depicting a racial stereotype.

Also, where exactly do you see a personal insult thrown at you? I made no such comments like that.

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09-21-2017, 10:13 PM
  #887
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In 2017 the xenophobia angle and this racist **** have no place on this program.

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09-21-2017, 11:55 PM
  #888
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Are people claiming to be offended by the comments or just annoyed by how stupid the segment was and the fact that the forceful xenophobia angle isn't working? Fans see through that as complete and utter bs.

I don't think anyone is offended by the things Jinder is saying. It just has no purpose because nobody cares who is Japanese, Canadian, American, or whatever. They care about who is a good wrestler or who they like.

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09-21-2017, 11:57 PM
  #889
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Are people claiming to be offended by the comments or just annoyed by how stupid the segment was and the fact that the forceful xenophobia angle isn't working? Fans see through that as complete and utter bs.

I don't think anyone is offended by the things Jinder is saying. It just has no purpose because nobody cares who is Japanese, Canadian, American, or whatever. They care about who is a good wrestler or who they like.
Well Bon seems less than happy.

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09-22-2017, 12:05 AM
  #890
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Well Bon seems less than happy.
I read those 2 pages. I agree to disagree that only certain people can say they are offended. I watched that part live and while they are idiotic immature attempts at racial stereotypes, being offended by stupid stuff like that is meeeh. Whatever. There is more to worry about in life than a guy stuck in the 80s who is so out of touch with today's culture.

Nonetheless - I took it as the crowd was just really annoyed with the forcefulness of 2 weeks in a row promos that nobody even cares about. I don't look at Nak and say "OH YES! He's Japanese!!!" I just like his character and how he wrestles. I don't give a **** where he's from. And i don't care what religion Jinder is supposed to have in his character. He should use his roided up look to tell Nak that "strong style" means nothing.

I just took it as the crowd was so annoyed as opposed to offended.

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09-22-2017, 07:50 AM
  #891
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I admin a FB Wrestling group of 400+ members (with about half of them regularly active) and a lot of them are unwoke dudebros so when I see that almost all of them except one ding dong I had to ban were ****ing offended at that segment in addition to the majority of everyone on HFWF in addition to the reaction on wrestling spaces online in addition to the live crowd chanting "that's too far" - I can confidently say that people were offended. That is the last I'm saying on this matter as I've expanded way too much labor on this topic and I'm spent on debating this.

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09-22-2017, 07:52 AM
  #892
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The Mr. Miyagi thing isn't even funny and is as low bar as Jackie Chan or any other "racist" insult at an Asian. I'm not one to be offended by things easily and have gotten in arguments on here and in real life about how overly PC everything now a days, but If you're going to push the envelope at least try to be a little creative.

Same goes for the "rook" thing. I don't have a problem poking fun at someone's broken English, whether that be an Asian, Italian, Russian, whatever. I crack up when South Park does that stuff but it coming from Jinder Mahal is just cringey. I'm not sure why they even had Jinder cut a promo like that to begin with, doesn't fit his character at all. Not only in demeanor, but why is the generic foreign heel poking fun someone else for being foreign?

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09-22-2017, 08:07 AM
  #893
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I think the "angle" the WWE is trying to pull off with these Jinder promos is that Jinder is really lame and says lame and stupid things, but he's completely out of touch and has his "yes men" thinking he is hilarious because he is the champ, he is rich, he is power......wait a second....is this some genius take on Vince McMahon in the current state of WWE?

I mean its failing miserably, but I think that's the "idea" behind these promos.

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09-22-2017, 10:03 AM
  #894
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But isn't Jinder's thing is that everyone else is racist or something?

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09-22-2017, 10:15 AM
  #895
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But isn't Jinder's thing is that everyone else is racist or something?
Yes and in the context of that particular line, it would've been in line with his character because he was saying the fans would call Nakamura that when they turn on him due to their jingoistic ways. The problem was that this was preceded by the 'rooks the same' line which outed his character as a hypocrite. I think when it comes to this line of dialogue and character development for this type of product, that's out of bounds. I think he could've gotten away with the Mr. Miyagi thing if the 'rooks the same' line wasn't done.

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09-22-2017, 06:15 PM
  #896
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The Mr. Miyagi thing isn't even funny and is as low bar as Jackie Chan or any other "racist" insult at an Asian. I'm not one to be offended by things easily and have gotten in arguments on here and in real life about how overly PC everything now a days, but If you're going to push the envelope at least try to be a little creative.

Same goes for the "rook" thing. I don't have a problem poking fun at someone's broken English, whether that be an Asian, Italian, Russian, whatever. I crack up when South Park does that stuff but it coming from Jinder Mahal is just cringey. I'm not sure why they even had Jinder cut a promo like that to begin with, doesn't fit his character at all. Not only in demeanor, but why is the generic foreign heel poking fun someone else for being foreign?
He was poking fun to say that the fans would turn on him.

I laughed at the Miyagi thing. Didn't get the rook thing.

Now the promo was ass. The promo could have worked with the same content if Jinder's promo was in a serious tone when he started talking about the fans turning on him because he's Asian. But they went for the same comedic tone as the beginning of the promo which actually made the promo suck and brought a lot more bad publicity.

Promo would have kicked all kinds of ass if the second part was in a 100% serious tone.

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09-23-2017, 08:30 AM
  #897
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Yesterday, 01:13 PM
  #898
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Mike and Maria are pregnant. 13 weeks pregnant. They debut 14 weeks ago. Easy mat leave/paycheck right there lol. Wonder how management feels.

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