I don't care about your broke ass clubs. It's not my fault, problem or care that Portsmouth is a terribly run organization - they deserve whatever comes their way. Like I said, Chelsea were in the same plight in the past. No law says you should show empathy. The lack of it is revealing however.
I've been a Bayern fan for as long as I can remember, or fifteen yearsand when Ballack moved over I started cheering for Chelsea casually but then more serously. I don't have to explain my fandom to you or anyone but it's honest and true and I'm not glory-hunting or bandwagoning just because I'm supporting "rich" clubs. Ballack was my favorite player, it's simple as that. yet when you first got into football, Ballack was playing for Leverkusen. Lucky that Ballack was never loaned out from Chelsea. I tremble to think what havoc the strain of supporting three clubs simultaneously would have wreaked on your fragile constitution.
And watching a team you support lost in the semi's or the finals hurts a lot. I don't care if your team gets relegated and it breaks your little heart into smithereens but it hurt me a ton to watch my teams lose in the semi's and finals for so many years. Precisely six years, in the case of Chelsea. Prior to that, you didn't give a toss about them.
My remark about casual fans was actually pointed at the atrocious "live" commentary and analysis going on in the thread, and the total bandwagoning and pro-Spanish vibe. "Bayern stand on chance if they play like that in the second leg"
I'm gonna dig up quotes in my next post, this should be fun. Still digging? A new spade might be in order.
Well said, but I couldn't care less about what some fan of relegation team thinks of heartbreak. Again, Chelsea have been a relegation team in the past. Blues fans who stuck with the club in the seventies and eighties would have a wry smile.
Bayern isn't run like other rich teams, they don't just blow tons of cash or have top wages for everyone - every one of their top earners was re-negotiated after foreign interest grew and Bayern had to keep them. Pull the other one. They're one of the richest clubs in the world.
They had to qualify for the group stages too. So no, I do not think that they could just "reset". Fourteen CL qualifications in fifteen years suggests otherwise.Hell, they were handed the toughest group team too, with Villareal, Napoli and Man City. Two teams qualified and Bayern were one of the two biggest clubs in the group.
Anyway, the notion of a fan passionately supporting both teams in a cup final throws up an intriguing scenario to me.
A Very Passionate and Incredibly Loyal Fan Cheers for Both Clubs in a Cup Final-A Play in One Act
SCENE ONE
An anonymous North American city, we hear fragments of conversation. "Rejean Houle, helas", "Gauthier pour l'echafaud", "Gomez, ne pas de buts".
INT. PADDED CELL. NIGHT
The passionate fan sits before his TV screen. The east wall of his cell bears a flag of St. George, the west wall a German flag. The fan sports a friendship scarf and a specially made, half-Bayern, half-Chelsea shirt. On his bedside table, a picture of Kerry Dixon. Next to the picture, a note with two words written in a childish scrawl, "c'est qui?"
TV COMMENTATOR
Bayern looking for an equaliser, Muller bursts through...and he's hit the post!
PASSIONATE FAN
Ha, screw you Kraut...oops, what am I saying? I mean, oh, that was so unlucky. The tension is making my head throb.
Last edited by Stray Wasp: 04-27-2012 at 04:42 AM.
Reason: word change
Into the last ten minutes now, the eight men of Bayern hanging on. Robben crumples under Essien's meaty challenge.
TV replay shows Essien hacking down his man, nowhere near the ball.
PASSIONATE FAN
You dirty *******, Essien. Ref, send him off! Oh, erm, no, that's not right. Diver, show him a yellow. Zut alors, that doesn't work either. Don't do anything ref, he's not that type of player but there was enough contact to throw Arjen off balance.
Into the last few seconds of a game that will go down in history as one of the rankest injustices in football history. Chelsea took the lead, the referee bravely ignoring Bayern's cynical cries that Frank Lampard was seventeen yards offside. Mario Gomez' sixty yard overhead kick levelled it on the hour despite Chelsea domination. Correctly awarded a penalty for a foul committed by the corner flag, Lampard blazed wide. Justly allowed a retake because Neuer had blinked during the run-up, he hit the post. His second retake trickled tamely into Neuer's arms with replays proving that the German keeper cheated by being half a millimetre ahead of his line. After Schweinsteiger walked for viciously breathing near Fernando Torres and Kroos's red for assaulting Drogba with an invisible scimitar, there was commotion in the stadium as a Chelsea official was arrested by the Bavarian police on plainly trumped-up charges of carrying two suitcases full of unmarked bills into the officials' changing room. Then Gomez's 98-yard run and chip from an acute angle gave Bayern the lead. Gomez, booked in the first half, received a second yellow for his goal celebration, which recapitulated the "hips or lips" scene from William Friedkin's film, "Cruising".
TV SUMMARISER interrupts furiously
It don' matter, we're still Inglish and we're better than 'em. Them lousy, diving, snivellin' forins. Awl that matters is oo' wun at Dunkirk, oh yes! Two world waws, one World Cup! Bloody Huns! Thas wos all about!
Pause lasting one beat. TV Summariser decides that he should throw out one last note of defiance. Bellowing
MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH SAN!
TV COMMENTATOR whispering
Remember the doctor's advice.
The clatter of a microphone being cast to the floor and stamped to smithereens. Faint sound of someone singing "any old iron" in a broken voice.
And there's the final whistle.
PASSIONATE FAN
Hurray, at last, this is the greatest moment of my life! Aaargh, the agony, I can't bear it any more. So much suffering! When will it end? Oh, my brother Chelsea fans, we have endured so much! But do not despair, one day this great trophy will be hours. We shall not stint in our love for this club! WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!
Passionate fan draws himself up to his full height, adopting an Napoleonic posture, his face a picture of noble stoicism. Pause of two beats. A thoughtful expression slowly breaks across his face.
Enough of that. I must dash otherwise I'll miss joining in with the Bayern victory song.
Jesus, this thread has taken a turn. But a fan of the german record champs, the epitome of a nouveau-riche club and a national team that failed to reach the smi final in only 1 of the last 5 tournaments complaining about heartbreak is gold. You sure are the only knowledgable fan here.
Jesus, this thread has taken a turn. But a fan of the german record champs, the epitome of a nouveau-riche club and a national team that failed to reach the smi final in only 1 of the last 5 tournaments complaining about heartbreak is gold. You sure are the only knowledgable fan here.
I don't see your reasoning here. So losing a game when the stakes are at the highest doesn't justify heartbreak? How did you feel 2001?
I don't see your reasoning here. So losing a game when the stakes are at the highest doesn't justify heartbreak? How did you feel 2001?
it sure does. What I have a problem with, though, is this sentence:
Quote:
Do you have any idea the amount of heartbreak I've felt as a Bayern, Chelsea and Germany fan?
Which implies that being a fan of these teams in the last couple of years has been terrible, even though they were 3 of the most succesfull of all. Not only that, it also implies that being fan of those clubs is about as high a burden as there can be. Of course, for the big blubs losing a championship hurts just as much as being relegated, but only in the first moment. After that, you can think about last year's titles and the fact that there will probably be more next year. As a bruin fan, for example, after the first moments the pain of the game 7 loss against the caps was much less burning that after the Carolina loss in 2009, because I know they won a cup last year and that they will be in the running again in 2013.
Fans of big clubs complaining about the amount they have to suffer is like a rich guy being sad about not being able to afford another yacht. It may be genuine, but it won't go over well.
I'm going to respond to Stay Wasps offensive lunacy in my next post, after my exam. Until then I'm going to assume, you're a Newcastle fan right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schalkenullvier
Which implies that being a fan of these teams in the last couple of years has been terrible, even though they were 3 of the most succesfull of all.
What's your definition of success? None of those teams have won the silverware they wanted to. The Bundesliga, until recently, was Bayerns to lose so fans weren't tearing up at every championship parade. Nor the German cup. Chelsea did well to win their league and FA cups but the ultimate prize is the same for both teams: the Champion's league. None of Chelsea, Bayern or Germany have won their ultimate prize but have come perilously, heart-breakingly short. That's not success, I don't understand how you or Stray Wasp or anyone else could think it is.
Seeing Kahn slump down after spilling the ball to Ronaldo is burned into my retinas. Or Grosso's ****ing 119th minute goal off the corner and seeing the shell-shocked faces of Ballack and Lehmann. Terry's slip. Van Buyten's step-behind Milito. Puyol's header at the 78th minute. Torres' touch past Lahm and Lehmann in the 08 euros.That bald ******* Øvrebø.
What's your definition of heartbreak?
Quote:
Not only that, it also implies that being fan of those clubs is about as high a burden as there can be.
No it doesn't and I never implied so.
Quote:
Of course, for the big blubs losing a championship hurts just as much as being relegated, but only in the first moment.
The point is: it hurts. It hurts a god-damned lot. And I'm not going to apologize for the fact that playing competition football is to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS not to avoid relegation. If a team loses in the semis or the finals, it's because they came up just short. If a team avoids relegation it's because they didn't suck as bad as other teams. Sheer ******** to think that losing in a final isn't a harrowing experience. And no, the near-misses still haunt and hurt.
Quote:
After that, you can think about last year's titles and the fact that there will probably be more next year. As a bruin fan, for example, after the first moments the pain of the game 7 loss against the caps was much less burning that after the Carolina loss in 2009, because I know they won a cup last year and that they will be in the running again in 2013.
The point here is that none of my teams have won "THE TITLE" in recent memory. I was a schoolkid when Bayern lost and then won the champion's league, it'd be a bit disingenuous to cling onto those events when I was barely knowledgeable about the sport. Since then, however, were many, many final and semi-final losses to Germany, Bayern and Chelsea. Not a single victory.
Winning the double with Ancelotti was great, and also with van Gaal but losing the final in Moscow and in Madrid hurt exponentially more.
Quote:
Fans of big clubs complaining about the amount they have to suffer is like a rich guy being sad about not being able to afford another yacht. It may be genuine, but it won't go over well.
You're being pretentious at best and a twerpy hipster at worst. I don't have any ****ing "yachts" to my name, none of my teams have won it. Liverpudlians can look back fondly to their memories of 2005 and negate 2007 (where AC eliminated my Bayern in the quarters and Liverpool eliminated Chelsea in the semis after shootouts).
To apply your hockey analogy: Would you rather win the Cup once in a decade or win the president's trophy twice? Boston or Vancouver? And as a Habs fan I can't rightfully say that the '93 Stanley cup was a great time, I was barely cogent then.
To repeat: I don't care that you're a fan of a borderline club who can't afford a training staff. "Big clubs" have passionate fans too, and I'm one of them. And I haven't been bandwagoning the Galacticos or the Messi/Ronaldo fantrain. I've waited for a decade to be able to finally have a final victory go to one of my teams and I'm ecstatic about it. I probably want Bayern to win it more but Chelsea's squad probably won't get this chance again.
I don't get the people who support two clubs who are IMO quite different. For example I've encountered my fair share of young people who support Arsenal and Real Madrid. You've got two different clubs who when "The War of the Clubs" breaks out would seemingly be on different sides. I mean Arsenal don't spend a ton in the transfer market while Madrid spend more than everybody else. Arsenal tend to bring in players who will fit the team where as Madrid bring in good players regardless of whether or not they'll necessarily fit the team. Arsenal are more of the philosophy of playing flowing, attacking football where as Madrid will park the bus if need be. Arsenal are bit more of the underdog in the PL where as Madrid are the "masters" of La Liga.
Anyway, I could go on and I'm sure this is some of my own personal views on various clubs, but that was always one of the weird ones to me and I've seen it for a good 10 years too.
You always struck me as the cold, dead heart sort.
Oh yeah, me too. It was more accepting that someone does and then seeing their chocies. I mean Madrid and Arsenal?
Personally I have preferences, but nowhere near a level of support for another club. I can't even play past one season with another club on Football Manager. Well I can't really play past 1-2 seasons with Barça either.
I just don't get double club supporting at all. I only have enough room in my cold, dead heart for one.
Well, I don't know whether it fully (or possibly why it) works for me, with Bayern and Kaiserslautern. I have to admit that my emotional attachedness of FCK has definitely suffered, and I don't think I could really be invested in them as much as I am with Bayern in the last few years, at the same time. When I started following football - at maybe five, six years old - I was rooting with my Dad and "his" team, FC Bayern, most of the time, so I ended up not going local. On the other hand, I think I felt I needed a bit of a counter-point at times, and for some reason always liked Kaiserslautern as that. Two clubs, between which the fans basically despise each other.
What's kind of funny is that I only far later realized that my father actually was a lot more casual, in that sense. Being from the general South of Germany and now living near Cologne, he liked all those teams that (I suppose) reminded him of home - Bayern, 1860 and Nuremberg. (No need to mention that that's a combination that just doesn't work for about anyone.) Had I picked up on him cheering for one of the other teams back in the day, little-kid-me probably would have followed that track. It's really kind of funny how little things can have these impacts, and how big part of one's life they actually end up changing.
I don't get the people who support two clubs who are IMO quite different. For example I've encountered my fair share of young people who support Arsenal and Real Madrid. You've got two different clubs who when "The War of the Clubs" breaks out would seemingly be on different sides. I mean Arsenal don't spend a ton in the transfer market while Madrid spend more than everybody else. Arsenal tend to bring in players who will fit the team where as Madrid bring in good players regardless of whether or not they'll necessarily fit the team. Arsenal are more of the philosophy of playing flowing, attacking football where as Madrid will park the bus if need be. Arsenal are bit more of the underdog in the PL where as Madrid are the "masters" of La Liga.
Anyway, I could go on and I'm sure this is some of my own personal views on various clubs, but that was always one of the weird ones to me and I've seen it for a good 10 years too.
What if you get into the clubs at a stage when your awareness of their styles or way of handling things isn't there yet. I mean you can be hooked before you notice that you support two entirely different approaches, and even if you then notice that you're more the arsenal type (to stay with your example), your fanhood for the other will almost surely let you look over it. Fanhood will provide you with excuses for the worst **** your club does, so it won't be any different there.
In theory though, I agree- I used to know a guy who would come to one sprts class with a schalke jersey and with a dortmund one to the next, that's ****ed up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now
I just don't get double club supporting at all. I only have enough room in my cold, dead heart for one.
I mean, there are players I like so by extension I hope their club does well, that's about it.
That depends on your definition of supporting. I consider Arsenal my second favourite club. I have a jersey of theirs and probably watch around 10-15 league games per year (mostly because I have nothing to do on saturdays at 1.45pm, arsenal always seem to play then) and as many champions league games as I can get. I'm happy when they win, but not devestated or even really sad if they lose. If you consider that supporting, I'd say having 2 clubs isn't that hard at all.
I'm going to respond to Stay Wasps offensive lunacy in my next post, after my exam. Until then I'm going to assume, you're a Newcastle fan right?
What's your definition of success? None of those teams have won the silverware they wanted to. The Bundesliga, until recently, was Bayerns to lose so fans weren't tearing up at every championship parade. Nor the German cup. Chelsea did well to win their league and FA cups but the ultimate prize is the same for both teams: the Champion's league. None of Chelsea, Bayern or Germany have won their ultimate prize but have come perilously, heart-breakingly short. That's not success, I don't understand how you or Stray Wasp or anyone else could think it is.
Seeing Kahn slump down after spilling the ball to Ronaldo is burned into my retinas. Or Grosso's ****ing 119th minute goal off the corner and seeing the shell-shocked faces of Ballack and Lehmann. Terry's slip. Van Buyten's step-behind Milito. Puyol's header at the 78th minute. Torres' touch past Lahm and Lehmann in the 08 euros.That bald ******* Øvrebø.
What's your definition of heartbreak?
No it doesn't and I never implied so.
The point is: it hurts. It hurts a god-damned lot. And I'm not going to apologize for the fact that playing competition football is to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS not to avoid relegation. If a team loses in the semis or the finals, it's because they came up just short. If a team avoids relegation it's because they didn't suck as bad as other teams. Sheer ******** to think that losing in a final isn't a harrowing experience. And no, the near-misses still haunt and hurt.
The point here is that none of my teams have won "THE TITLE" in recent memory. I was a schoolkid when Bayern lost and then won the champion's league, it'd be a bit disingenuous to cling onto those events when I was barely knowledgeable about the sport. Since then, however, were many, many final and semi-final losses to Germany, Bayern and Chelsea. Not a single victory.
Winning the double with Ancelotti was great, and also with van Gaal but losing the final in Moscow and in Madrid hurt exponentially more.
You're being pretentious at best and a twerpy hipster at worst. I don't have any ****ing "yachts" to my name, none of my teams have won it. Liverpudlians can look back fondly to their memories of 2005 and negate 2007 (where AC eliminated my Bayern in the quarters and Liverpool eliminated Chelsea in the semis after shootouts).
To apply your hockey analogy: Would you rather win the Cup once in a decade or win the president's trophy twice? Boston or Vancouver? And as a Habs fan I can't rightfully say that the '93 Stanley cup was a great time, I was barely cogent then.
To repeat: I don't care that you're a fan of a borderline club who can't afford a training staff. "Big clubs" have passionate fans too, and I'm one of them. And I haven't been bandwagoning the Galacticos or the Messi/Ronaldo fantrain. I've waited for a decade to be able to finally have a final victory go to one of my teams and I'm ecstatic about it. I probably want Bayern to win it more but Chelsea's squad probably won't get this chance again.
Well the start of this whole debate was that me among others were of the opinion that fans of small clubs suffer a whole lot more that those of the big ones. You obviously disagree. The reasons why I think being fan of a small club brings less heartbreak are:
1) You're actually playing for something, not against it. This might seem trivial, but it's not, seeing that you see your team win games all the time, while the other see them lose. You might get heartbroken once a year, but inbetween you're having loads of fun, while bottom feeders have to see their team suck all year. That alone makes it easier.
2) As stray wasp also pointed out, most of the time you know you'll be back. I see the heartbreak of 2002 (that team was the worst that ever played for germany in a world cup, and no one could expect them to recover as fast as they did) and 2008/2009 (the "trophy window" of te lampard, terry, drogba era was nearing its end without that coveted CL title), but for the most part you know you'll have a good shot again next time. That's a kind of certainty that most don't have, and it should allow one to get over a loss quicker. At least that's how I felt after the 2006 and 2010 WC semis: A few days after I felt "I ain't even mad". This might change with hindsight; You can bet I'll be mightily pissed if Germany don't win at least a european chmpionship with this current core of players. For the moment though, losses are easier to stomach then it would be for example for greece fans if they had lost in 2004.
You know, I have a feeling that we're kinda talking at crossed purposes here. I do not want to tell you to always be happy because you're a fan of big clubs, I don't doubt that you feel terrible after losses in semi finals or finals. I certainly don't want to split the club landscape into proletariat and bourgeoisie, as my club would certainly fall into the latter category too. The only thing I said is that I disagree with the notion that being a fan of bayern, chelsea and germany could have been a horrific suffer in recent years.
As for the hockey anology, I can see comparing bayerns and chelseas titles to president's trophy's. fair enough. But where does the Boston comparison come from? I didn't say you should be happier than clubs that won the CL. But, what do you think would happen if tomorrow some Vancouver fan made a thread on the main board about how terrible the last 2 years have been? My guess is that he would be flamed to death by fans of franchises less succesful than the canucks, and rightfully so. They sure had their share of heartbreak, but being fan of columbus/edmonton/florida, whatever was surely worse. Even more so when we apply this to soccer, where finishing last actually has bad consequences.
Geez, I hope you can understand me to some extend. I'm terrible at structuring my thoughts.
What if you get into the clubs at a stage when your awareness of their styles or way of handling things isn't there yet. I mean you can be hooked before you notice that you support two entirely different approaches, and even if you then notice that you're more the arsenal type (to stay with your example), your fanhood for the other will almost surely let you look over it. Fanhood will provide you with excuses for the worst **** your club does, so it won't be any different there.
In theory though, I agree- I used to know a guy who would come to one sprts class with a schalke jersey and with a dortmund one to the next, that's ****ed up.
Well the guys I've encountered likely should have known. I mean you can pretty easily sort out clubs this day and age in a short period of time.
You always struck me as the cold, dead heart sort.
Oh yeah, me too. It was more accepting that someone does and then seeing their chocies. I mean Madrid and Arsenal?
Personally I have preferences, but nowhere near a level of support for another club. I can't even play past one season with another club on Football Manager. Well I can't really play past 1-2 seasons with Barça either.
