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Might RFID be the answer to "is the puck in the goal" or offsides?
Furthermore on the camera point, if anything obstructs the view (like a goaltender, player, or piece of hockey equipment) even a fancy high-def, high-speed camera isn't going to help. In general, the problems all occur when something is obstructing the camera.
RFID is very easily hacked. This would work until one fan walks in with a jammer or worse, just sends out a signal to wipe all the pucks, wasting money and rendering it all useless. The first time someone sets off a goal horn when the puck isn't in HFboards will lose their minds and scream for Bettman's head for ever allowing RFID to even have an affect on the outcome.
I think we can assume that an RFID application would be a little more sophisticated in an NHL puck than that in retail. Encrypted chips can not be hacked easily and they would cost about $5 each. But even if they could be hacked, it wouldn't make any difference. Changing or accessing the information on an RFID puck would at worst render the system unusable. A phantom goal could not be engineered or hacked through the RFID chip.
A fan could not walk in to an NHL arena with an illegal jammer and "wipe out all pucks" either. A jamming radio signal powerful enough to disrupt the RFID signal in a puck would instantly be detected and whoever was in possession of that equipment would be in serious trouble with several federal agencies in addition to the RCMP. The idea that a fan would risk so much just to temporarily block a back up system to video replay is pretty farcical. Don't bet on it.
Furthermore on the camera point, if anything obstructs the view (like a goaltender, player, or piece of hockey equipment) even a fancy high-def, high-speed camera isn't going to help. In general, the problems all occur when something is obstructing the camera.
I think it would be best if video confirmation was still the final determining factor for a goal. The advantage of an RFID puck would be that the officials would instantly know whether or not to look for video proof of a goal. If the RFID says its in then you look for proof. If the RFID says it's not in you dont spend ten minutes on replay.
I don't see it myself.
Refs make mistakes. People applying technology make mistakes.
In all honesty, I wouldn't mind if they did away with the video replay. Mistakes happen. Move on.
Bad calls are a part of sports. I think sports would be less interesting if every call was perfect.
A puck with a chip would be worth more than good ol' rubber pucks. Maybe 10-12 bucks a puck? Think how many pucks are lost by game, and multiply puck value by no. of pucks lost by game and then by number of games played in a season. That's a lot of money.
Plus you have to make changes to all the arenas to accomodate the sensors.
at 10$ a puck I would think you would need to lose 1 million pucks a year for the give-a-crap meter to really start going off.
Let's say they lose 20 pucks a game, which to me is pretty wild:
41 x 30 x 20
That's 25k pucks or $250,000. The economics of the pucks aren't the problem it seems to me. Even if you assume they lose 100 pucks per game.
... sure, its "supposed" to be a goal, but if you ever actually played goal, youd understand that in stopping the puck, the odd time on a glove save for example you'll catch it, save it, the weight & velocity taking your hand & arm back & for a split second it might go over the goal line by like a 1/4" a foot or four above the ice. The Ref's never catch those, nor do the Goal Judges, the other players on the ice. But you know. You just dont say anything. Follow?
Thats a great idea. Make it so.... what happens though if the goalie catches the puck or blocks it, has it under control, but the velocity & power of the shot carries his hand behind the goal line for a split second causing the sensor to trigger the goal light?
RFID is a Radio frequency that transmits in all directions. It would be impossible to have a magnetic field that transmits in only one direction (i.e. inside of the net). I don't see how you could use that technology to conclusively say that the puck has crossed the line or not. Once the puck got within the range of the magnetic field the circuit would be tripped. The RFID technology probably doesn't make sense in this case.
What you could do is have a GPS puck transmit a time stamp and have multiple sensors inside the net that could measure the time to receive the signal and therefore triangulate the exact location of the puck on the ice, in the air, etc (like it is done with GPS and Satellites, except the reverse of that). That makes more sense. Although again I wonder how the puck mechanics and consistency would be altered by putting a GPS transmitter, battery etc inside the puck. The puck now made out of solid rubber would be much lighter. Also I think it would be hard to design a device that would take the impact of a 100 MPH slapshot.
It's a good concept in theory....I just don't think we're technologically there yet.
Goals, maybe, but I don't think it would work for offside because the game needs to flow whereas for a goal the data could just be reviewed at the next stoppage.
Active RFID tags are $25+, and you'd need more than one per puck as they are not completely spherical - a puck on its edge will cross the goal line before a puck sitting flat on the ice. So you're looking at two, maybe three or four (more?) sensors per puck with a cost of $100/puck? Unless the NHL decides to completely enclose the rink in netting with no chance of pucks going into the crowd, I don't see that happening.
I fully support this. The insertion of the RFID chip into hockey pucks is the first step in creating a brainwashed army of frozen zombie rubber which will be used to take over the world. Resistance is futile.
RFID is not accurate enough for this type of solution and to get that kind of accuracy the sensor (reader) needs to be right next to the RFID tag. This would only be possible if the puck grazed along the posts or goal line (assuming that the sensors are placed there).
RFID is not designed for positional solutions, it's designed to read data from a that is within proximity. It can be an active or inactive tag. The difference is an active tag has a power source and is broadcasting. You could use triangulation to locate the position of the puck but it would be on a XYZ AXISbut to be honest there would be a +/- variance that would be equal to or greater variance than that of a netcam. An inactive tag needs to be close enough to the reader that the reader activates the tag. Neither are good solutions imho.
Last edited by CellarDweller0: 10-17-2012 at 01:19 PM.
Reason: added more detail
... sure, its "supposed" to be a goal, but if you ever actually played goal, youd understand that in stopping the puck, the odd time on a glove save for example you'll catch it, save it, the weight & velocity taking your hand & arm back & for a split second it might go over the goal line by like a 1/4" a foot or four above the ice. The Ref's never catch those, nor do the Goal Judges, the other players on the ice. But you know. You just dont say anything. Follow?
Well those should be called goals then. This would get rid of that problem I guess
If I'm not mistaken RFID can work through metal, but it doesn't work through liquids. So would the sensors be in the post? What if the goalie's in the way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordy
RFID is very easily hacked. This would work until one fan walks in with a jammer or worse, just sends out a signal to wipe all the pucks, wasting money and rendering it all useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeBee78
What you could do is have a GPS puck transmit a time stamp and have multiple sensors inside the net that could measure the time to receive the signal and therefore triangulate the exact location of the puck on the ice, in the air, etc (like it is done with GPS and Satellites, except the reverse of that). That makes more sense. I wonder how the puck mechanics and consistency would be altered by putting a GPS transmitter, battery etc inside the puck. The puck now made out of solid rubber would be much lighter. Also I think it would be hard to design a device that would take the impact of a 100 MPH slapshot....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CellarDweller0
RFID is not designed for positional solutions, it's designed to read data from a that is within proximity. It can be an active or inactive tag. The difference is an active tag has a power source and is broadcasting. You could use triangulation to locate the position of the puck but it would be on a XYZ AXISbut to be honest there would be a +/- variance that would be equal to or greater variance than that of a netcam. An inactive tag needs to be close enough to the reader that the reader activates the tag. Neither are good solutions imho.
...interesting. Thanks guys. Technologically possible, just not yet, this Stardate & time.
Has discussion from 2006 about RFID. Not anything new. I imagine it's not there due to the "human factor".
There is no reason it couldn't have been been done already. ****, there's probably an app for it.
I would be all for this even if the puck cost $100. If the pucks were that much id say save them for the playoffs. Like mentioned above how much better would it be if we all knew for 100% if that martin gelinas shot was or wasnt in the net back in 04.
