You hire the best guy for the job, not because of his race or origin, but because he gives you the best chance to win. There are French coaches. Ted Nolan is aboriginal, and he's had a few jobs. It wouldn't shock me if Jarome Iginla were to eventually end up as the first black coach some day.
The Rooney Rule is embarrassing for the NFL, and any fan will tell you that. It's absolutely insulting that some candidates get interviewed after a decision is pretty much made just to satisfy the Rooney Rule.
If you give interviews out strictly on merit, it creates the same imbalance the rule was put in to prevent.
I'm sorry but that's simply not true. Though I am not a huge fan of it, affirmative action is in place to address the far-reaching and very deep effects of a pervasive culture oppression and discrimination, a culture that up until a few decades ago was legally endorsed and enforced by the government. The people that benefit from affirmative action are the people whose parents and grandparents were denied jobs and services because of the colour of their skin. Imagine where you would be in life if your parents or grandparents had been similarly discriminated against.
They worked in a slave camp to get plane tickets to come here, had nothing but the clothes on their backs and about 100 bucks, were discriminated against pretty harshly, worked their ***** off, and everyone is doing fine now.
I see since leaving this thread its gone back to "the best candidates should always get hired regardless of race or origin"... which has nothing to do with how this rule would effect the NHL...
The NFL should have a Rooney Rule for cornerbacks. Out of the 20 million white American males between the ages 22 and 38, there isn't ONE who has the athletic ability to play cornerback? Yeah right.
My opinion is based on the great free market system that the United States is supposedly based on.
1. Need
2. Search to fulfill that need
3. Choice based on greatest return of utility with the given investment
When applied in sports, those who make hiring decisions, both player and coach based on ability and not arbitrary facts succeed far more than those that do the opposite.
In 1947 a baseball team in Brooklyn took a "chance" and played a not-so young black second baseman at first base. He excelled, won the Rookie of the Year, and made it clear to other teams that to complete they would have to also sign black players. They made this choice, not because of a rule, but because it would either help them win or get people in the stands or both.
In 1962 the Washington Redskins became the last NFL team to integrate, having been more or less forced to. Their owner's unwillingness to integrate was possibly a large reason for them only having one winning season between 1948 and 1969.
In 1989 Soviets were first allowed to come freely to the NHL. Sergei Makarov won the Rookie of the Year. NHL teams cannot flat-out ignore European players without suffering.
These things work themselves out. As long as there are no government regulations that limit civil rights (see Jim Crow Laws), the free market system should devour any institution (team) that chooses its employees (players and coaches) based on anything other than their abilities to perform the tasks in which they are entrusted with. Mind you that these things happen over periods of time and not weeks or months or even a few years.
For this topic:
1. The Rooney Rule does more harm than good. Teams generally interview a "token" candidate before or while they are interviewing the "real" candidates. This limits the "real" minority candidates from ever getting a chance. This is usually not due to prejudice, racism, or any hatred. Follow the rules!
2. Mike Tomlin was hired despite the Rooney Rule not because of it. The Steelers interviewed Ron Rivera before Mike Tomlin satisfying the NFL's Rooney Rule, but since they are forward thinking and like winning Super Bowls and didn't treat it as a rule, they didn't stop at interviewing just one minority and landed a Super Bowl winning coach.
3. Affirmative action was a necessary action that had to be taken when it did. Anyone that says that affirmative action was not needed directly following the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is crazy. With that being said after a short run boost because of affirmative action, the program along with others are doing more harm than good. Again the rule is getting in the way of the free market system doing its job, devouring those that do not hire based solely on abilities. Instead it forces a firm to hire someone based on something other than abilities.
4. The NHL does not need a Rooney Rule! When a European coach comes over and does something to open eyes, more will be hired. If I need to explain more...
You literally just named the 3 names that jumped out to me. These three guys combined for basically no qualifications to even run a McDonalds and yet they are all put in charge of NHL teams basically as soon as they hang up their skates. Unsurprisingly all three organizations are among the three worst run in the NHL.
Yzerman worked in a front office for years before being hired. As a player he was also highly successful. You dont think that teams look at him and say even though hes relatively new he learned under Holland, Devellano and Scotty Bowman? He was also on very successful teams and a long standing captain so maybe he has a good idea of what makes teams successful.
Would you rather a bunch of lawyers run teams who know f all about hockey? Just look what Bettman is doing to the NHL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
About half of the NHL is European. There are zero European head coaches. There are 5 French Canadian head coaches. 4 of them came up through the team who only hires head coaches from Quebec. It is quite obvious that a problem exists in the NHL and the rampant denial in this thread only confirms just how serious the problem is. Does nobody find it curious that the United States and Canada are the two most diverse countries on the planet and yet the NHL is about 98% white?
Certain cultures focus on certain sports more than others. The NHL is 98% white because other cultures and groups grow up liking other things. Do you ever think possibly being in a different continent, not speaking english as a first language and growing up playing a different style of game on a different style of ice might play an impact in how many GMs from Europe are around. I hate when people act like because theyre different they should be gifted something. If a European could fulfill all the GM duties as well or better than someone else they would get the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo
He had a LOT of front office experience though.
1995-1999 he was the GM of IFK Helsinki. Then moved back over to the NHL as a director of Player Personnel for the Sens. Then in 2002, he became Assistant GM and Director of Amateur Scouting, then went back to Finnish Elite League to become GM there.
Yeah. Exactly, hes been a European in a lot of high ranking positions in hockey. Want me to make a list of Canadians who have those qualifications but didnt sniff a GM job too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats
Does nobody think the reason why there aren't many European GMs/coaches is because they want to stay in Europe with their families?
If you give interviews out strictly on merit, it creates the same imbalance the rule was put in to prevent.
It's amazing that someone can be so incredibly unintentionally racist and believe that they're being progressive.
Handing interviews on merit creates an imbalance for minorities? You must have been distracted while you were forming that post, right? Perhaps I've mistook you posting with sarcasm or something.
edit: As a sidenote to Fish on the Sand, I love how everyone has completely flipped on Steve Yzerman in less than 2 years. When the Lightning were one goal away from the Stanley Cup Final in 2011, Steve Yzerman was one of the most brilliant new GMs in the game. Now the coaching has turned bad on the Bolts and he's running the worst managed team in sports.
Last edited by Jill Sandwich: 03-18-2013 at 07:44 PM.
I think they have a little more insight into the coming and going of the NFL than a bunch of keyboard commandos. They weren't just looking at the head coaches but all positions. There has been a lot of discussion about the coordinator positions lately.
No. The team should hire who they think is most suited for the job and who they want, and not have to schedule extra interviews just to satisfy a rule.
One NFL coach hired due to this rule isn't enough for it to be used sports-wide.
If the NHL and hockey keep increasing in popularity, we're going to see more minority players, which will lead to more minority coaches.
Yeah. Exactly, hes been a European in a lot of high ranking positions in hockey. Want me to make a list of Canadians who have those qualifications but didnt sniff a GM job too?
The thing is he's built two very successful teams in the NHL and yet guys like Tambellini and Snow still have jobs over him with no record of success?
Care to add any proof he 'built 2 very successful teams in the NHL' or should we just take your word that it was ALL him and nobody else?
With the Senators, he picked Marian Hossa, Martin Havlat and Ray Emery.
I would also say that he helped pretty much build the St. Louis Blues (worked from 2002-2010). He was the director of Player Personnel for the Senators and the Assistant GM and Director of Amateur Scouting for the Blues. Senators might be stretching it, since he was only there for 3 years but they have continued success with some of the guys they drafted or later traded.
With the Senators, he picked Marian Hossa, Martin Havlat and Ray Emery.
I would also say that he helped pretty much build the St. Louis Blues (worked from 2002-2010). He was the director of Player Personnel for the Senators and the Assistant GM and Director of Amateur Scouting for the Blues. Senators might be stretching it, since he was only there for 3 years but they have continued success with some of the guys they drafted or later traded.
This is all true. Were he born somewhere else, I personally think he would have been hired earlier, probably before he returned to Finland. IMO Columbus really lucked out. They picked one of the better judges of talent and now have three first rounders and an extremely high end and top heavy draft. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bias against him largely in part based on the fact that he has an ego. I heard that on three different radio stations.
This is all aside from the Rooney rule which, in this case is irrelevant.
It doesn't matter if they are or not. Is anyone surprised two African Americans (minority) who were coaches (and probably still want to be) would think the rule isn't encompassing enough while they are out of work?
1. The NHL's style of play. In large part due to the size of ice surface, the NHL has a significantly different style of play than the European Leagues. North American coaches therefore have a decades-long headstart over European coaches in understanding the nuances of the North American game.
Oh, yeah...I know that story. European coaches don't fit BC in NHL bc "its a diffrent game", NHL hockey and Euro hockey. Apparently players from Europe akso were supposed to play "diffrent game". Till they were given a chance in NHL...
Quote:
2. Communication. It is a given that a coach's primary duty is communication of ideas to his players, and it is a fact that a large majority of nhl players speak English as their first language while the rest accept it as the International language of communication. It follows therefore that almost all English-Speaking coaches are better qualified for this aspect of their job than all except the most fluent English-speaking European and French-Canadien Coaches.
And then you show your ignorance about the world- people in Europe (esp northern Europe) generally speaks English pretty well..
Oh, yeah...I know that story. European coaches don't fit BC in NHL bc "its a diffrent game", NHL hockey and Euro hockey. Apparently players from Europe akso were supposed to play "diffrent game". Till they were given a chance in NHL...
And then you show your ignorance about the world- people in Europe (esp northern Europe) generally speaks English pretty well..
Coaching and playing is a completely different thing.
But what about what the coach himself thinks? He is going to be more comfortable in a coaching role speaking his own language. I think even moreso with a GM, having to deal with all the technical legal stuff in your 2nd language, would be quite difficult and stressful.
Add all that with the fact they have their family in Europe, which is again different to players because when players come over to NA they generally aren't married with kids. I think it's more a case of the Europeans not wanting to come over, than teams not wanting to hire them, but the different style of game is also a valid argument in my opinion.
