The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
Hamburg didn't exactly have much of a hockey culture before the Freezers were created.
Starting brand new clubs would work in areas without any already established clubs like, say, London, but putting teams in places like Stockholm, Prague, Moscow, etc would just be asking for failure. Not only do those cities have clubs that pre-date the NHL with decades of history and tradition, but they are multi-sport clubs that the locals follow not just in hockey, but soccer, basketball, handball, bandy, etc.
On top of that, Europeans prefer to watch their teams play other local teams, not teams from other countries. A Jokerit - Djurgarden game has absolutely no interest from Europeans compared to a Jokerit - HIFK game or a Djurgarden - AIK game. This is why European hockey lacks any meaningful continental championship.
Even bigger budgets and better players wouldn't guarantee any kind of success. Most of the fans of European clubs are fans of their club first and the sport second. It's hard concept to explain to North Americans who are spoiled by having so many major leagues and just want to get the best return of a product for their money, but European sporting culture is completely different.
Hamburg didn't exactly have much of a hockey culture before the Freezers were created.
Starting brand new clubs would work in areas without any already established clubs like, say, London, but putting teams in places like Stockholm, Prague, Moscow, etc would just be asking for failure. Not only do those cities have clubs that pre-date the NHL with decades of history and tradition, but they are multi-sport clubs that the locals follow not just in hockey, but soccer, basketball, handball, bandy, etc.
On top of that, Europeans prefer to watch their teams play other local teams, not teams from other countries. A Jokerit - Djurgarden game has absolutely no interest from Europeans compared to a Jokerit - HIFK game or a Djurgarden - AIK game. This is why European hockey lacks any meaningful continental championship.
Even bigger budgets and better players wouldn't guarantee any kind of success. Most of the fans of European clubs are fans of their club first and the sport second. It's hard concept to explain to North Americans who are spoiled by having so many major leagues and just want to get the best return of a product for their money, but European sporting culture is completely different.
correcto mundo.
can we post-it this, for close the conversation?
Last edited by Special One: 03-22-2012 at 06:55 AM.
Hamburg didn't exactly have much of a hockey culture before the Freezers were created.
Starting brand new clubs would work in areas without any already established clubs like, say, London, but putting teams in places like Stockholm, Prague, Moscow, etc would just be asking for failure. Not only do those cities have clubs that pre-date the NHL with decades of history and tradition, but they are multi-sport clubs that the locals follow not just in hockey, but soccer, basketball, handball, bandy, etc.
On top of that, Europeans prefer to watch their teams play other local teams, not teams from other countries. A Jokerit - Djurgarden game has absolutely no interest from Europeans compared to a Jokerit - HIFK game or a Djurgarden - AIK game. This is why European hockey lacks any meaningful continental championship.
Good points. Though LEV Poprad would be a counter-example. They're a franchise with no tradition, playing teams from other countries, and they're easily drawing larger attendance than HK Poprad. We'll see how LEV Prague is going to do compared to Sparta and Slavia.
Good points. Though LEV Poprad would be a counter-example. They're a franchise with no tradition, playing teams from other countries, and they're easily drawing larger attendance than HK Poprad. We'll see how LEV Prague is going to do compared to Sparta and Slavia.
True, but LEV does not draw only from Poprad. There aren't even enough people in Poprad to support a KHL team. Most of LEV's attendance came from other parts of Slovakia and even other countries (Czech, Austria, Hungary, Poland, etc). It was simply a chance for the region to experience a higher level of hockey. The people in the stands weren't necessarily LEV fans, more along the lines of "hockey tourists".
It will be the same way in Prague. Curious hockey fans will come out to see the KHL product, but they will all be fans of other clubs first and foremost. LEV is going to have to keep moving from city to city every season if they want to remain attractive. Or sign a big name Czech player like Jagr or something because the local fans will have absolutely no connection to the club like they do Slavia and Sparta.
I suspect LEV could get better attendance than the other Prague teams at first, but it is the long-term that is important.
The Concorde is dead - they were retired in 2003. There are no other plans for commercial supersonic passenger flights. They weren't economically viable when oil was <$50/bbl in the 80's & 90's and they certainly aren't now at $100+/bbl.
Concordes were engineering masterpieces. An absolute shame they went away. I never flew in one but got to go into one on display. An absolute rocketship. And thevone incident they had was not their fault. Never should have been grounded.
But I agree supersonic planes are a ways out the need isn't driving any big plans. This doesn't kill a European division but it hurts it. Imagine the times games would be on? Could kill scf ratings...
Concordes were engineering masterpieces. An absolute shame they went away. I never flew in one but got to go into one on display. An absolute rocketship. And thevone incident they had was not their fault. Never should have been grounded.
The last nail in the Concorde's coffin was 9/11. The drop in air traffic and the spike in oil prices following 9/11 and the run up to the war in Iraq finally led Air France and British Airways to retire the Concorde. Ironically, the first Concorde passenger flight after the July 2000 Air France crash and grounding was on Sept 11.
British Airways and Air France were already losing money on the Concorde due to its small passenger capacity (~100 seats) and extremely high fuel consumption & maintenance costs. The airframes were nearing the end of their rated lives (they entered service in 1976) and would have required more extensive (and expensive) inspection and maintenance if they had continued operation much longer.
The Flight 4590 crash and 9/11 gave Air France and British Airways the excuse to do what they had already considered several times in the past and retire the fleet, whose operation had been maintained more for prestige than profit.
I grew up under the approach path to JFK and it was always impressive (and loud) when the Concorde flew over, especially the time it flew over at a MUCH lower altitude than it was supposed to - the noise was ear splitting.
I'd like to make a similar comparison of between the NHL and the European leagues. It is similar to the NFL, and Canada's pro football league, the CFL. Football, and the CFL, is the second biggest sport in Canada, obviously next to the NHL and hockey. The CFL obviously has lower end talent when compared to the NFL, much like European hockey leagues when compared to the NFL. The CFL is still huge in Canada. Yet, just because football and the CFL are so big in Canada, does not mean the NFL would work at all up here, as seen in the Toronto-Bills games.
Just a comparison/observation I like to think makes some sense.
The last nail in the Concorde's coffin was 9/11. The drop in air traffic and the spike in oil prices following 9/11 and the run up to the war in Iraq finally led Air France and British Airways to retire the Concorde. Ironically, the first Concorde passenger flight after the July 2000 Air France crash and grounding was on Sept 11.
British Airways and Air France were already losing money on the Concorde due to its small passenger capacity (~100 seats) and extremely high fuel consumption & maintenance costs. The airframes were nearing the end of their rated lives (they entered service in 1976) and would have required more extensive (and expensive) inspection and maintenance if they had continued operation much longer.
The Flight 4590 crash and 9/11 gave Air France and British Airways the excuse to do what they had already considered several times in the past and retire the fleet, whose operation had been maintained more for prestige than profit.
I grew up under the approach path to JFK and it was always impressive (and loud) when the Concorde flew over, especially the time it flew over at a MUCH lower altitude than it was supposed to - the noise was ear splitting.
I'm surprised you thought the Concorde was louder because both companies had to go out of their way to prove to the American government they were infact quieter then their Boeing competition. I obviously never lived on the approach though so I'll take your word for it. It was becoming a dated plane by the end since no competition existed to make them upgrade the cockpit and other aspects.
The Concorde though is a beast. One of my favourite planes to fly in flight sims. It's amazing to fly routes that were not traditional routes just to see the times. It's also one of the most beautiful planes in the world.
There is a rumor too one is being prepped for the London Olympics. They might keep that under wraps like Ferrari did for the Turin Olympics.
Mirroring the two national airlines that operated the Concorde for years – British Airways and Air France – a $22 million collaboration between Britain's Save Concorde Group (SCG) and France's Olympus 593 has been hard at work to get the supersonic jetliner back in the air. The joint team of engineers is now preparing for initial tests on the Rolls-Royce engines that could lead to the Concorde being cleared for flight once again. The target is to have the jet fly over the opening ceremonies for the 2012 Olympic Games in London.
But before you go rearranging your next vacation around the shorter transatlantic flight times the Concorde once afforded to those who could afford it, bear in mind that the goal is to have it operational in a "heritage capacity", indicating that while it may fly for demonstration purposes, it likely will never return to commercial aviation.
The engines on a French Concorde are to be examined as the first move in a £15m project aiming to get the supersonic passenger jet back in the air.
The Rolls Royce engines of the former Air France Concorde will undergo an initial examination to see what work needs to be done to start the engines.
Concorde was retired seven years ago, but it is hoped the jet could return to flight in a heritage capacity.
The tests by a French-British team will take place at an air museum near Paris.
The work at the Le Bourget Air and Space Museum is being done through a partnership between the British Save Concorde Group, SCG, and a French group Olympus 593.
...
"SCG has always maintained that she could return to flight in a heritage capacity, and the findings of today will hopefully go an awfully long way to proving our point.
...
The tests will first establish whether the engines can be safely started and whether the aircraft could complete a ground taxi.
Mr Lord said: "After today, we will know exactly what needs to be done with those four engines in order to take this to the next stage of engine test runs with an objective to hopefully perform a ground taxi."
...
It is hoped the jet will be able to fly as part of the opening ceremony of the 2012 London Olympics.
I'd like to make a similar comparison of between the NHL and the European leagues. It is similar to the NFL, and Canada's pro football league, the CFL. Football, and the CFL, is the second biggest sport in Canada, obviously next to the NHL and hockey. The CFL obviously has lower end talent when compared to the NFL, much like European hockey leagues when compared to the NFL. The CFL is still huge in Canada. Yet, just because football and the CFL are so big in Canada, does not mean the NFL would work at all up here, as seen in the Toronto-Bills games.
Just a comparison/observation I like to think makes some sense.
If Toronto got its own NFL team (rather than having to root for a town in another country that is smaller than some of Toronto's suburbs at high ticket prices), it would succeed.
The NFL gets a lot of viewership in Canada. More people I know in Toronto watch the NFL than the CFL. In fact, I'd say few people would shed tears if the Argos departed. And celebrations would be abound if an NFL team were replacing it. It's smaller towns and cities that really love CFL; similar to how some of the smaller towns love minor league hockey even though OHL & AHL don't do well in Toronto.
WOW, that's more then I ever read about the rumour. I just read the rumour on some flightsim boards and never truly looked into it. Thanks for the info.
Hockey is one sport I think would be able to survive with a team in Europe. It would be interesting to say the least to see how free agency would go. I think a Scandinavian division is something that could be considered. Don't know how a Canadian/American player would respond to being drafted by Helsinki though.
The NHL was a six team league until just 44 years ago.
Think about that. 44.
The Super Bowl has existed for just 46 years, etc.
The evolution of sports leagues is absolutely mesmerizing.
To think myself what the NHL was in 1995 and what it is now sends chills down my spine.
I feel it is only natural that once the market is saturated in one country or one continent, the sports organization will find a way to expand their market.
Obviously the CFL was a bust in the U.S. but common. It was called the Canadian Football League...how could it ever survive in the United States? Although Baltimore did very well on account of no NFL team.
Ultimately the next 50 years will be interesting indeed.
My two cents is that the NFL is going to overtake the continent and eat away at the NBA, NHL and MLB. Obviously the NFL only constitutes September to January but those months do eat away at the other three leagues and the NFL off-season is already becoming a trend of its own.
Basically I feel the NHL of all leagues will HAVE to expand, same goes for the NBA.
Honestly my outlook may seem grim but I'd peg the NHL to go down to 28 North American teams and expand into Europe. For numbers sake it would probably be made more even, so about a quarter.
In terms of salaries, the NHL already lags behind with the other big leagues, all while Europe continues to grow in some aspects (obviously not Greece).
A league that looks something like 8,8,8,8 is very possible.
That would negate most travel issues as schedules could be made to have the 8 Euro teams play eachother more often and maybe equate to 49 division games let's say and then long road trips when in NA.
The travel logistics/costs for an interlocking schedule are a killer. Plus differing labour laws will make trades and the draft and ELCs impossible. The most feasable situation is to reduce the NHL season by a couple of weeks, and then have the Stanley Cup champ play the European champ in late spring. Alternate the host sites (Europe and North America) so each side of the Atlantic hosts the series every 2 years.
The most feasable situation is to reduce the NHL season by a couple of weeks, and then have the Stanley Cup champ play the European champ in late spring. Alternate the host sites (Europe and North America) so each side of the Atlantic hosts the series every 2 years.
Problem is there is currently no such thing as a European champion.
I wouldn't say never... I mean, the technology exists to make transatlantic flights in an hour or two. Just because we don't use it commercially today doesn't mean we never will. And anyway, it could still be done if you just divide them into two leagues ala MLB. I know this has been covered already, but it's really not all that difficult to figure out.
It really only works with Western Europe, though, so franchise concerns aren't really that relevant. Interest in places like Dublin, London, Paris, etc. would be very low, though.
I wouldn't say never... I mean, the technology exists to make transatlantic flights in an hour or two. Just because we don't use it commercially today doesn't mean we never will. And anyway, it could still be done if you just divide them into two leagues ala MLB. I know this has been covered already, but it's really not all that difficult to figure out.
It really only works with Western Europe, though, so franchise concerns aren't really that relevant. Interest in places like Dublin, London, Paris, etc. would be very low, though.
I don't think it could work in just the west. Too many big hockey markets in Scandinavia/central/east Europe
I can't see just a single NHL team in Europe working. But a whole division / conference? Maybe... It would allow NAm teams to come over for a week or more to play a series of games over several weeks.
As and idead pretty neat, but will never work in reality. Just to quote
EbencoyE for this pretty acurate post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE
Starting brand new clubs would work in areas without any already established clubs like, say, London, but putting teams in places like Stockholm, Prague, Moscow, etc would just be asking for failure. Not only do those cities have clubs that pre-date the NHL with decades of history and tradition, but they are multi-sport clubs that the locals follow not just in hockey, but soccer, basketball, handball, bandy, etc.
On top of that, Europeans prefer to watch their teams play other local teams, not teams from other countries. A Jokerit - Djurgarden game has absolutely no interest from Europeans compared to a Jokerit - HIFK game or a Djurgarden - AIK game. This is why European hockey lacks any meaningful continental championship.
Even bigger budgets and better players wouldn't guarantee any kind of success. Most of the fans of European clubs are fans of their club first and the sport second. It's hard concept to explain to North Americans who are spoiled by having so many major leagues and just want to get the best return of a product for their money, but European sporting culture is completely different.
As and idead pretty neat, but will never work in reality. Just to quote
EbencoyE for this pretty acurate post:
i think certain cities would embrace an nhl team very well. kinda like an nfl team in toronto. or mlb in tokyo
why wouldn't they want to watch the best players in the world? most european hockey players want to play in the nhl over the khl. and there already seems to be a good amount of nhl fans in europe. i would assume there's enough money and/or people in certain cities like stockholm, helsinski, moscow, etc. to take on the nhl.
