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Old
02-17-2017, 09:54 AM
  #51
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I think they'd probably want to see someone with a tad bit more experience, but I think that's closer to something that works than Braun is. Again, there's nothing against Braun but I just think they need to get a early to mid 20's guy back as opposed to someone that's 30.

If I was confident in a quick turn around next season, I'd probably be more open to Braun but I'm not sure TB will be ready to compete again next season with the possibility of some pretty major roster turnover this season and offseason.

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02-17-2017, 10:02 AM
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[Callahan/Vermin discussion]
Let's not go too far down the rabbit hole with this in a Palat thread. If there's an extensive discussion to be had, spin it off into a thread elsewhere.

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02-17-2017, 10:10 AM
  #53
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Nah, Namestnikov has been fine. The goalies have an on-ice save percentage of 90%, but at 5v5 he has a 53% CF, 53% Scoring Chances for %, and is even on the 5v5 goal differential. The idea of his "bad play" this season is a result of the goalies not being able to make saves at an NHL average rate.



The guy pushes play at a mid six level, suppresses shots at a top line level, and impacts shot quality a smidge under top line. Namestnikov is and was never part of TB's problem, and will not be moving forward.
Where's the stat that tracks his inability to complete simple passes or make smart plays ? Because those are the reasons we all think he sucks.

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02-17-2017, 10:13 AM
  #54
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I don't see him listed a potential trade target here the bolts also still have to sign Johnson and Drouin

Is he available now or will he be a pre expansion trade?
Don't see Palat having much trade value compared to say Johnson. Palat is having a down year, and had a down year last year. He won't command as much as originally anticipated, imo. So see his deal being negotiable.

Any team would be happy to get Palat he is the stirrer and spark on a line. He won't put up as many points as his line-mates but he does all the little things. It will likely come between one or two of Killorn, Palat, and Johnson. Drouin will likely get a bridge deal like Kucherov did but less money. I have no issues seeing Tampa part with Johnson, if it means keeping Palat. But think Killorn will be snatched by Vegas, freeing up cap to re-sign Palat and Johnson.

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02-17-2017, 10:30 AM
  #55
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Braun would be interesting, but we'd need much more for Palat.

Johnson may indeed be worth a bit less than Palat, simply due to our surplus at C.
I could understand that. I'd rather go back to the Meier type deal though if you'd want a lot more though, assuming of course that works for others.

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02-17-2017, 10:44 AM
  #56
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I could understand that. I'd rather go back to the Meier type deal though if you'd want a lot more though, assuming of course that works for others.
Makes sense.

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02-17-2017, 11:27 AM
  #57
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I could understand that. I'd rather go back to the Meier type deal though if you'd want a lot more though, assuming of course that works for others.
I'd prefer to try other options over trading our only top 10 draft pick since couture. We will need Meier down the road. I also understand Tampa fans wanting a mid 20s 2nd pairing d- man with potential, but am not convinced they are dealing from a position of strength. Palat is pending rfa with arbitration as a possibility. If he chooses that path, he could be ufa in 1-2 years. Tampa has some hard choices to make on their offseason extensions. Add to that, the expansion draft and things get dang tough to navigate.

Trading palat or Johnson can bring back good pieces for tampa's future and make the expansion and off season easier to navigate. I think they'll need to do something soon. What I'd prefer to offer them for palat is:

Braun + Donskoi + mueller for palat + 2018 2nd

Braun is signed three more years throughout his prime (he turned thirty last week). That will serve Tampa as immediate help while working on future solutions. Donskoi is a year younger than palat, also pending rfa, a play making middle sizer exempt from the expansion. Solves a problem and with their fwd depth, a reasonable add to help compensate for palat' loss. Add mueller as a ready to step in to 3rd pair type role with mid pair tools/potential, there is good value for tamp' future.

My 2cents

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02-17-2017, 11:32 AM
  #58
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I'd prefer to try other options over trading our only top 10 draft pick since couture. We will need Meier down the road. I also understand Tampa fans wanting a mid 20s 2nd pairing d- man with potential, but am not convinced they are dealing from a position of strength. Palat is pending rfa with arbitration as a possibility. If he chooses that path, he could be ufa in 1-2 years. Tampa has some hard choices to make on their offseason extensions. Add to that, the expansion draft and things get dang tough to navigate.

Trading palat or Johnson can bring back good pieces for tampa's future and make the expansion and off season easier to navigate. I think they'll need to do something soon. What I'd prefer to offer them for palat is:

Braun + Donskoi + mueller for palat + 2018 2nd

Braun is signed three more years throughout his prime (he turned thirty last week). That will serve Tampa as immediate help while working on future solutions. Donskoi is a year younger than palat, also pending rfa, a play making middle sizer exempt from the expansion. Solves a problem and with their fwd depth, a reasonable add to help compensate for palat' loss. Add mueller as a ready to step in to 3rd pair type role with mid pair tools/potential, there is good value for tamp' future.

My 2cents
I think that if we got Palat, we don't need Meier long term. It'd hurt, but I'd trade Meier+ for Palat, depending on the pluses of course. I'd also do the deal you suggested, but I don't think Tampa fans would be interested in that. I don't like including Donskoi in general because I think he's far more valuable to us than he could potentially fetch in a trade. This deal is one of the few exceptions.

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02-17-2017, 11:36 AM
  #59
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Your statement about why we should trade Johnson is the best possible statement of why we SHOULD NOT trade Johnson. Point is the only one who may be able to slot into 2c but we don't know when that will be.

I mentioned Namestnikov only because the guy I quoted said we had no center depth. I do not think he's good enough to be our #2 right now....more like a tweener. Filppula is however, and Point is also there as a risky option as an injury replacement

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02-17-2017, 11:51 AM
  #60
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I'd prefer to try other options over trading our only top 10 draft pick since couture. We will need Meier down the road. I also understand Tampa fans wanting a mid 20s 2nd pairing d- man with potential, but am not convinced they are dealing from a position of strength. Palat is pending rfa with arbitration as a possibility. If he chooses that path, he could be ufa in 1-2 years. Tampa has some hard choices to make on their offseason extensions. Add to that, the expansion draft and things get dang tough to navigate.

Trading palat or Johnson can bring back good pieces for tampa's future and make the expansion and off season easier to navigate. I think they'll need to do something soon. What I'd prefer to offer them for palat is:

Braun + Donskoi + mueller for palat + 2018 2nd

Braun is signed three more years throughout his prime (he turned thirty last week). That will serve Tampa as immediate help while working on future solutions. Donskoi is a year younger than palat, also pending rfa, a play making middle sizer exempt from the expansion. Solves a problem and with their fwd depth, a reasonable add to help compensate for palat' loss. Add mueller as a ready to step in to 3rd pair type role with mid pair tools/potential, there is good value for tamp' future.

My 2cents
Take out Mueller and the 2nd to start. Tampa doesn't need Mueller and they do not have to add to Palat to get quality back. Also Braun doesn't really work for Tampa. They already have a cheaper comparable player in Garrison(who Tampa fans already want to get rid of which I disagree with for the most part). You said yourself that he's not a long-term solution. Tampa isn't going to trade a prime asset to add salary and not fill a hole.

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Old
02-17-2017, 12:28 PM
  #61
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Where's the stat that tracks his inability to complete simple passes or make smart plays ? Because those are the reasons we all think he sucks.
Every player does that. I've seen Drouin, Kuch, and Hedman all do it numerous times a season. Eye test remembers what they want to remember and forgets A LOT. The Lightning score more goals when Namestnikov is on the ice than when he's not. It's pretty simple, TBH. Total goals for with Vladdy on the ice (including PP time) - 53. Total goals against - 32. Yes Johnson is a better hockey player, but unless you have the dough to sign TJ, Palat, Drouin, and find top 4 D help... something has to give and Palat and Drouin are more important to the Lightning than Johnson when looking at the forward group IMO. Coming into the season Palat was a top 20 left winger per Sportsnet. Who the hell trades an complete 2-way forward (essentially a younger Hossa) to keep a replaceable 2C (albeit with replacing him with lower stats, but making up in depth/possible scoring on other areas of the team).

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02-17-2017, 12:42 PM
  #62
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Apparently Habs talking to Stevie Y about Plekanec. Looks like ya found a new 2C.

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02-17-2017, 12:43 PM
  #63
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I think that if we got Palat, we don't need Meier long term. It'd hurt, but I'd trade Meier+ for Palat, depending on the pluses of course. I'd also do the deal you suggested, but I don't think Tampa fans would be interested in that. I don't like including Donskoi in general because I think he's far more valuable to us than he could potentially fetch in a trade. This deal is one of the few exceptions.
Meier+ for Palat is the right track. But Tampa would be better off trading Johnson and losing Killorn to Vegas.

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02-17-2017, 12:43 PM
  #64
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Apparently Habs talking to Stevie Y about Plekanec. Looks like ya found a new 2C.
Gonna be pretty warm wearing a turtleneck in FL

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02-17-2017, 12:44 PM
  #65
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I also understand Tampa fans wanting a mid 20s 2nd pairing d- man with potential, but am not convinced they are dealing from a position of strength.
We absolutely are. First of all if we can move Garrison (easy) and Filppula (more challenging but still doable) and buy out Callahan (sure thing if we choose to do so) then we don't have to lose any of our top six forwards. If we can't pull of one of those moves then we'll likely have to lose somebody important, but that could be any one of Palat, Johnson, or Killorn and there will be no shortage of interested parties for them. Worst case we can expose Killorn to Vegas who would almost certainly take him given the shortage of quality forwards they'll be facing. In short we don't have to move Palat if we don't want to, so don't think you're going to get a bargain price on him.

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02-17-2017, 12:48 PM
  #66
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We absolutely are. First of all if we can move Garrison (easy) and Filppula (more challenging but still doable) and buy out Callahan (sure thing if we choose to do so) then we don't have to lose any of our top six forwards. If we can't pull of one of those moves then we'll likely have to lose somebody important, but that could be any one of Palat, Johnson, or Killorn and there will be no shortage of interested parties for them. Worst case we can expose Killorn to Vegas who would almost certainly take him given the shortage of quality forwards they'll be facing. In short we don't have to move Palat if we don't want to, so don't think you're going to get a bargain price on him.
Saying things like Garrison is easy to move, Filp is challenging to move, and Vegas is sure to take Killorn is a LOT of guessing. I honestly do not think they are as easy as you think, and I don't think Killer is a guarantee for Vegas.

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02-17-2017, 01:00 PM
  #67
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We absolutely are. First of all if we can move Garrison (easy) and Filppula (more challenging but still doable) and buy out Callahan (sure thing if we choose to do so) then we don't have to lose any of our top six forwards. If we can't pull of one of those moves then we'll likely have to lose somebody important, but that could be any one of Palat, Johnson, or Killorn and there will be no shortage of interested parties for them. Worst case we can expose Killorn to Vegas who would almost certainly take him given the shortage of quality forwards they'll be facing. In short we don't have to move Palat if we don't want to, so don't think you're going to get a bargain price on him.
Never meant to suggest you'd need to trade palat for a bargain price. I do think you will trade someone for a decent return, but maybe not the young top 4 dman you seem to want. I was trying to offer a decent return as an alternative to discuss but we can drop it.

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02-17-2017, 01:09 PM
  #68
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Saying things like Garrison is easy to move, Filp is challenging to move, and Vegas is sure to take Killorn is a LOT of guessing. I honestly do not think they are as easy as you think, and I don't think Killer is a guarantee for Vegas.
Garrison is having a bad year but up until this season he was a solid 3D. He only has a year left on his contract and there are always teams seeking to improve their blue line; we won't get much for him thanks to his performance this season but somebody will take him on the cheap in the hope that this year was a fluke.

Filppula will likely be more challenging despite his rebound year due to his age, cap hit, and NMC. Maybe we can trade him at the deadline to a contender, or in the offseason to a team desperate for center depth, but there's a decent chance we'll have to provide an incentive to move him.

Vegas will have their pick of middle pairing defensemen and some quality goaltending options but filling out their top six will be challenging. Killorn would be one of the best forward options left exposed to them - possibly the best. And if we protect Koekkoek on the back end and either protect Namestnikov (if one of Filppula or Callahan is gone by then or waives his NMC) or trade him before the draft then Vegas' other choices from us will be unappealing. There's obviously no guarantee but it's a pretty damn good bet that Killorn would be their pick if we leave him exposed.

So while those may indeed be guesses, they are logical, educated ones. And again, even if we do have to move a top six forward we have three candidates to choose from and no shortage of interested teams to drive up the price - saying that we're going to have to bend over on a trade for one of those guys is FAR more unlikely than any of the scenarios I've laid out.

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02-17-2017, 01:12 PM
  #69
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Garrison is having a bad year but up until this season he was a solid 3D. He only has a year left on his contract and there are always teams seeking to improve their blue line; we won't get much for him thanks to his performance this season but somebody will take him on the cheap in the hope that this year was a fluke.

Filppula will likely be more challenging despite his rebound year due to his age, cap hit, and NMC. Maybe we can trade him at the deadline to a contender, or in the offseason to a team desperate for center depth, but there's a decent chance we'll have to provide an incentive to move him.

Vegas will have their pick of middle pairing defensemen and some quality goaltending options but filling out their top six will be challenging. Killorn would be one of the best forward options left exposed to them - possibly the best. And if we protect Koekkoek on the back end and either protect Namestnikov (if one of Filppula or Callahan is gone by then or waives his NMC) or trade him before the draft then Vegas' other choices from us will be unappealing. There's obviously no guarantee but it's a pretty damn good bet that Killorn would be their pick if we leave him exposed.

So while those may indeed be guesses, they are logical, educated ones. And again, even if we do have to move a top six forward we have three candidates to choose from and no shortage of interested teams to drive up the price - saying that we're going to have to bend over on a trade for one of those guys is FAR more unlikely than any of the scenarios I've laid out.
Garrison is old and has regressed. He is at best an overpaid 3rd pair D. Killorn has a terrible contract so there is no guarantee Vegas is looking to stock up on those. Filppula would actually not be overly difficult to move as he is still a valuable top 9 F.

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02-17-2017, 01:13 PM
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Never meant to suggest you'd need to trade palat for a bargain price. I do think you will trade someone for a decent return, but maybe not the young top 4 dman you seem to want. I was trying to offer a decent return as an alternative to discuss but we can drop it.
No, by all means discuss; I'm just saying that we are not in a position of weakness and that trading Palat for lesser pieces isn't in our best interest when we have a serious need for a 3D and he's one of our best expendable assets with which to acquire one. Palat for futures only makes sense if Yzerman is planning on acquiring a 3D via free agency and needs the cap space to do so.

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02-17-2017, 01:19 PM
  #71
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Garrison is having a bad year but up until this season he was a solid 3D. He only has a year left on his contract and there are always teams seeking to improve their blue line; we won't get much for him thanks to his performance this season but somebody will take him on the cheap in the hope that this year was a fluke.

Filppula will likely be more challenging despite his rebound year due to his age, cap hit, and NMC. Maybe we can trade him at the deadline to a contender, or in the offseason to a team desperate for center depth, but there's a decent chance we'll have to provide an incentive to move him.

Vegas will have their pick of middle pairing defensemen and some quality goaltending options but filling out their top six will be challenging. Killorn would be one of the best forward options left exposed to them - possibly the best. And if we protect Koekkoek on the back end and either protect Namestnikov (if one of Filppula or Callahan is gone by then or waives his NMC) or trade him before the draft then Vegas' other choices from us will be unappealing. There's obviously no guarantee but it's a pretty damn good bet that Killorn would be their pick if we leave him exposed.

So while those may indeed be guesses, they are logical, educated ones. And again, even if we do have to move a top six forward we have three candidates to choose from and no shortage of interested teams to drive up the price - saying that we're going to have to bend over on a trade for one of those guys is FAR more unlikely than any of the scenarios I've laid out.
I believe your analysis is out of order. Filp is probably the easiest to move. Garrison has regressed immensely and is dependent on PP time to produce points. I also don't know why Vegas would take on an albatross contract.

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02-17-2017, 01:28 PM
  #72
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Garrison is old and has regressed. He is at best an overpaid 3rd pair D. Killorn has a terrible contract so there is no guarantee Vegas is looking to stock up on those. Filppula would actually not be overly difficult to move as he is still a valuable top 9 F.
One awful season is not enough to declare a trend; Garrison up to this point was a solid 3D and with only a year on his contract and the perpetual market for defensemen somebody will take him on the cheap and hope he rebounds. Flip was on a serious decline before this season and despite his rebound year will be difficult to move due to his NMC; if he agrees to waive it for the draft then we might have an easier time of it but he's still overpaid by about $1M. And Killorn's contract is not remotely terrible - it's a bit too much but not by a huge margin, and again Vegas won't be seeing forwards of his caliber exposed in the draft. Killorn would give them a top line winger and a veteran leader who would be locked in long term, and his contract would pose no problem for them (if anything they'll have to worry about reaching the cap floor.) It's an easy pick for them.

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02-17-2017, 01:31 PM
  #73
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One awful season is not enough to declare a trend; Garrison up to this point was a solid 3D and with only a year on his contract and the perpetual market for defensemen somebody will take him on the cheap and hope he rebounds. Flip was on a serious decline before this season and despite his rebound year will be difficult to move due to his NMC; if he agrees to waive it for the draft then we might have an easier time of it but he's still overpaid by about $1M. And Killorn's contract is not remotely terrible - it's a bit too much but not by a huge margin, and again Vegas won't be seeing forwards of his caliber exposed in the draft. Killorn would give them a top line winger and a veteran leader who would be locked in long term, and his contract would pose no problem for them (if anything they'll have to worry about reaching the cap floor.) It's an easy pick for them.
Analysis using the past 2 seasons plus this season show Garrison is a 4/5 D man at best in terms of shot impacts. He is an overpaid D man that doesn't bring much to the table. Why would anyone waste assets and cap space to acquire him?

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02-17-2017, 01:37 PM
  #74
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One awful season is not enough to declare a trend; Garrison up to this point was a solid 3D and with only a year on his contract and the perpetual market for defensemen somebody will take him on the cheap and hope he rebounds. Flip was on a serious decline before this season and despite his rebound year will be difficult to move due to his NMC; if he agrees to waive it for the draft then we might have an easier time of it but he's still overpaid by about $1M. And Killorn's contract is not remotely terrible - it's a bit too much but not by a huge margin, and again Vegas won't be seeing forwards of his caliber exposed in the draft. Killorn would give them a top line winger and a veteran leader who would be locked in long term, and his contract would pose no problem for them (if anything they'll have to worry about reaching the cap floor.) It's an easy pick for them.
He's been pretty awful this season too. So 2 seasons, with no PP time, and his lack of production does not equal 3D. Sorry, dude's playing like a 3rd pairing D, no one is gonna pay 4.5mil for a 3rd pairing D for next season.

Flip's serious decline is wrong. His production dipped because his most common linemates were Cally and JT brown. Both Not known for production, so Flip (a playmaker) had no one to pass to. Also his underlying numbers are in line with his career average. He was also plagued by a career low shooting percentage, this season it's back to career average. Flip wasn't declining, his linemates just sucked.

Killorn's contract is 7 years. It's almost as bad as Callahan's contract.

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02-17-2017, 01:40 PM
  #75
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I believe your analysis is out of order. Filp is probably the easiest to move. Garrison has regressed immensely and is dependent on PP time to produce points. I also don't know why Vegas would take on an albatross contract.
Killorn's is by no stretch of the imagination an albatross contract. A little bit too much money and/or term, yes, but he would likely be Vegas' best offensive weapon and one of their top veteran leaders (quite possibly their captain), and the term while off-putting for most teams would actually be a plus for them (how many genuine top six forwards with significant playoff experience do you think they'll be able to get to stick around long term?) Callahan is an albatross - see the difference?

And again Garrison and Flip come down to the market. There are always teams in need of defensive improvement and Garrison was a fine 3D right up until this season; it's too soon to say that one bad year is a permanent regression (Filppula's rebound after severely declining the previous few years is proof of that.) He only has a year left on his deal so there's little risk if he doesn't work out, but if he bounces back he can provide a massive improvement on a team's blue line at very little cost. We won't get much for him but we will be able to move him.

And Filppula's biggest problem like I said is his NMC - if he waives that for the draft then he'll be much easier to move.

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