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Round 2, Vote 1 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

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Old
Yesterday, 10:05 AM
  #451
bobholly39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Also, I know right away that I won't be ranking Joe Sakic very high, because he's very clearly the worse (or, at the very least, less dominant) player in that group, but there's definitely something to be said for his OT game log.
He also was the best forward by far in Overpass's analysis on post# 120 about goals scored to either "tie a game/go ahead".

His "clutchness" is impressive.

60% of his career playoff goals either tied a game, or broke a tie.

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Yesterday, 10:37 AM
  #452
Dom
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Bobby Orr Game 7 log

DateTeam OppResGAP+/-SMin
18/04/1971BOS MTLL000    

Games 1
Goals 0
Assists 0
Points 0
Record 0-1

Denis Potvin Game 7 log

DateTeam OppResGAP+/-SMin
11/04/1975 (Game 3)NYI NYRW202    
26/04/1975NYI@PITW000    
13/05/1975NYI@PHIL011    
29/04/1978NYI TORL101   
13/04/1982 (Game 5)NYI PITW000   
10/04/1984 (Game 5)NYI NYRW000   
10/04/1987 NYI@WASW000   
02/05/1987 NYI@PHIL101   

Games 8
Goals 4
Assists 1
Points 5
Record 5-3

Doug Harvey Game 7 log

DateTeam OppResGAP+/-SMin
08/04/1952MTL BOSW000   
07/04/1953MTL CHIW000    
16/04/1954MTL@DETL000    
14/04/1955MTL@DETL000   
18/04/1968STL@PHIW011    
03/05/1968STL MINW000   

Games 6
Goals 0
Assists 1
Points 1
Record 4-2


Last edited by Dom: Yesterday at 10:47 AM.
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Yesterday, 12:37 PM
  #453
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom View Post

Gordie Howe Game 7 log

DateTeam OppResGAP+/-SMin
05/04/1949DET MTLW101   
09/04/1950DET TORW000   
23/04/1950DET NYRW000   
16/04/1954DET MTLW000   
14/04/1955DET MTLW101   
09/04/1964DET@CHIW123    
25/04/1964DET@TORL000    
15/04/1965DET CHIL112    

Games 8
Goals 4
Assists 3
Points 7
Record 6-2
Howe was injured in 1950 and didn't play in either of those Game 7s.

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Yesterday, 01:52 PM
  #454
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
He also was the best forward by far in Overpass's analysis on post# 120 about goals scored to either "tie a game/go ahead".

His "clutchness" is impressive.

60% of his career playoff goals either tied a game, or broke a tie.
Isn't that situation going to be the case a lot more often for players who played in low scoring eras?

Less total scoring events would make me assume so..

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Yesterday, 02:01 PM
  #455
bobholly39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Isn't that situation going to be the case a lot more often for players who played in low scoring eras?

Less total scoring events would make me assume so..
Yep that was brought up before and has to be taken into consideration.

But aren't guys like Beliveau, Howe and Richard also part of a lower scoring era? He scores much better than those guys do.

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Yesterday, 02:27 PM
  #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
But aren't guys like Beliveau, Howe and Richard also part of a lower scoring era? He scores much better than those guys do.
I didn't actually read the post but are we talking better as in he did it more times or better as in he did it more often per opportunity?

The number of games played in 4 round 7 game playoffs are going to affect the number opportunities to be in those "clutch" situations to an extreme degree in comparison to older times.

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Yesterday, 04:07 PM
  #457
blogofmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Not the point. Lemieux arrived in the NHL in the transition phase to the Short Shift Era so he does not bring a body of work to the discussion that mayn be reviewed like Gretzky does.

Regardless, Gretzky saw a drop in the 30-35% range of his ES performance as the Short Shift Era progressed into the nineties.Sakic was basically a SSE player, Yzerman was similar to Lemieux. Range basically explains the difficulty of pinning down when each team changed to a short shift game.
The timeline doesn't mesh. Gretzky was uber-dominant in 1982, well before Lemieux arrived, through 1987, three years after Lemieux arrived.

At ES his playoff numbers are still elite. And his RS numbers decline if you describe the progression of the Short-Shift era as "Canada Cup 1991." Through 1991 he had stayed, at a minimum, above 1.25 ESPPG (100 per 80). Immediately after that moment, I don't believe he never cracks 70. Oddly enough as scoring declined throughout the decade, Gretzky's ES scoring from the first two Rangers years (97 and 98) is comparable in raw numbers to the 92-94 years. You could argue he was better at age 37 in 1998 than he was at age 31 in 1992.

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Yesterday, 04:07 PM
  #458
blogofmike
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Everyone does have some off years, yes. More a response to the notion that Gretzky never had any. I believe he did, just like everyone else.
Indeed, but Gretzky and Lemieux's off years are merely average for a #1 centre. They didn't bring anything more to the table than their peers would have, but weren't performing badly. By the same token, I have Joe Sakic having only one "bad" year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Also, I know right away that I won't be ranking Joe Sakic very high, because he's very clearly the worse (or, at the very least, less dominant) player in that group, but there's definitely something to be said for his OT game log.
I am higher on Sakic than Lafleur. He achieved a level of consistently good, occasionally great play, without the valleys Lafleur went through.

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Yesterday, 04:32 PM
  #459
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So I says to myself I says, Self, maybe we can figure out Doug Harvey's PK contributions by figuring out how Montreal killed penalties when Harvey was in the box. That guy took tons of penalties. It didn't work out, but I already made the table.

Year Opponent GP Opp RS GF Tm GSAA Opp RS GA Tm GFAA TGF TGA PPG PPO PP% Harvey PPGA Harvey PK PPGA PPO PK% SpTm
1952 Bruins 7 162 -4.2 176 0.4 18 12 2 15 13.3% 0 1 0 16 100.0% 113.3%
1952 Red Wings 4 215 -1.3 133 -5.6 2 11 1 11 9.1% 2 3 3 15 80.0% 89.1%
1953 Black Hawks 7 169 -2.9 175 0.5 18 14 2 15 13.3% 0 1 1 16 93.8% 107.1%
1953 Bruins 5 152 -1.9 172 3.7 16 9 2 11 18.2% 0 1 1 10 90.0% 108.2%
1954 Bruins 4 177 -6.1 181 5.7 16 4 2 15 13.3% 0 4 0 14 100.0% 113.3%
1954 Red Wings 7 191 -5.1 132 -1.2 12 14 4 19 21.1% 0 2 4 32 87.5% 108.6%
1955 Bruins 5 169 -3.1 188 2.6 16 9 4 20 20.0% 0 1 2 19 89.5% 109.5%
1955 Red Wings 7 204 6.6 134 6.6 20 27 5 24 20.8% 0 2 6 33 81.8% 102.7%
1956 Rangers 5 204 -5.6 203 9.5 24 9 7 16 43.8% 0 2 3 23 87.0% 130.7%
1956 Red Wings 5 183 -4.1 148 7.4 18 9 3 17 17.6% 0 3 3 24 87.5% 105.1%
1957 Rangers 5 184 -1.1 227 5.8 22 12 4 16 25.0% 0 2 1 23 95.7% 120.7%
1957 Bruins 5 195 -7.9 174 2.6 15 6 3 15 20.0% 0 1 1 15 93.3% 113.3%
1958 Red Wings 4 176 -4.1 207 7.2 19 6 7 1
1958 Bruins 6 199 -11.1 194 -1.6 15 6 3 4
1959 Black Hawks 6 197 -0.9 208 3.2 21 16 9 29 31.0% 1 6 5 25 80.0% 111.0%
1959 Maple Leafs 5 189 -1.5 201 3.6 18 12 4 22 18.2% 1 3 2 19 89.5% 107.7%
1960 Black Hawks 4 191 -4.9 180 3.7 14 6 2 13 15.4% 0 0 0 12 100.0% 115.4%
1960 Maple Leafs 4 199 -6.4 195 3.9 15 5 1 16 6.3% 0 2 1 16 93.8% 100.0%
1961 Black Hawks 6 198 -1.0 180 -0.4 15 16 4 28 14.3% 1 4 4 21 81.0% 95.2%
Totals 101 187.1 -3.5 179.4 3.0 314 203 59 302 19.5% 5 38 37 333 88.9% 108.4%

33 for 38 makes them 86.8% when killing a Harvey penalty, but it may not be significant.

I used BigMouthSports because they kindly bold the penalties that resulted in agoal. Their data for 1951 and 1958 wasn't as good. The special teams totals omit 1958. If the Habs score multiple times on 1 PP (they did at least once in 54 against Detroit) it counts as a 2 for 1 in the PP%. I tried to omit Harvey penalties when an opponent took a penalty at the same time.

GSAA was how many goals the Habs "saved" above their opponent's regular season average GPG multiplied by the length of the series.

GFAA was the same thing, but goals for the opponent and GA for Montreal.

Thought I'd look at Detroit for context of PP or PK numbers:

Year Opponent PPG PPO PP% PPGA PPO PK% SpTm
1952 Leafs 4 23 17.4% 0 13 100.0% 117.4%
1952 Habs 3 15 20.0% 1 11 90.9% 110.9%
1953 Bruins 1 8 12.5% 3 12 75.0% 87.5%
1954 Leafs 3 24 12.5% 1 17 94.1% 106.6%
1954 Habs 4 32 12.5% 4 19 78.9% 91.4%
1955 Leafs 6 20 30.0% 3 15 80.0% 110.0%
1955 Habs 6 33 18.2% 5 24 79.2% 97.3%
1956 Leafs 3 20 15.0% 4 15 73.3% 88.3%
1956 Habs 3 24 12.5% 3 17 82.4% 94.9%
1957 Bruins 4 24 16.7% 1 22 95.5% 112.1%
1958 Habs 1 7
1960 Leafs 4 20 20.0% 3 17 82.4% 102.4%
1961 Leafs 2 14 14.3% 2 18 88.9% 103.2%
1961 Hawks 5 24 20.8% 2 23 91.3% 112.1%
Total 48 281 17.1% 32 223 85.7% 102.7%

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Yesterday, 06:00 PM
  #460
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Short Shift Era

Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
The timeline doesn't mesh. Gretzky was uber-dominant in 1982, well before Lemieux arrived, through 1987, three years after Lemieux arrived.

At ES his playoff numbers are still elite. And his RS numbers decline if you describe the progression of the Short-Shift era as "Canada Cup 1991." Through 1991 he had stayed, at a minimum, above 1.25 ESPPG (100 per 80). Immediately after that moment, I don't believe he never cracks 70. Oddly enough as scoring declined throughout the decade, Gretzky's ES scoring from the first two Rangers years (97 and 98) is comparable in raw numbers to the 92-94 years. You could argue he was better at age 37 in 1998 than he was at age 31 in 1992.
Looks like you do not appreciate the expression Short Shift Era.

NHL games since the mid 1980s - Mike Keenan time in Philadelphia are played in mainly 30 second to 45 second shifts. Previously they were played in longer shifts - longer as you go back further from upwards of 2 minute to skaters playing the whole or virtually the whole game without substitution.

So Lemieux and Yzerman had a brief exposure to longer shifts,Sakic did not.

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Yesterday, 08:21 PM
  #461
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
First, I agree that everyone has off years, even Gretzky. But his off years don't really compare to the off years of most others even here in the top players list.

Second, you can't hold it against Gretzky that he played against a lot of sub .500 teams. All you can do is look at how he did vs the competition he had. He was great in the finals against top teams too. As for piling on more points in blowouts than Messier, that could well be true, but he scored more than Messier regardless, so that only stands to reason.

Besides, considering the Oilers blew a 5-0 lead to the Kings in the playoffs to get eliminated, I don't think letting up in a playoff game regardless of score is something to be admired. One of Gretzky's best traits was that he was usually just as hungry when he was up 9-2 as he did when he was down 4-3 in the 3rd. We've all seen games with some crazy comebacks.
It's not a matter of holding it against him, it's just pointing out the potential for disparities in opponent strength between the players up for voting. Nothing more. Gretzky's performances against Philadelphia and Boston in various final series show that he could beat up on elite teams as well.

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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Not every team style is the same (well, they are now but didn't use to be). Edmonton circa 1981 to 1988 did not have the same style of winning hockey games that Montreal had in the same era, for example. The Edmonton team was built to win primarily by offense (and did pretty well at it). They still could win 1-0 games in the Finals, but by and large it was a team built around Gretzky's offensive skill. (This was moderated after the '86 loss to Calgary and then losing Coffey... but it was still a team that could score other teams to defeat.)

So, while I agree that no one players gets a "free pass" for different aspects of the game, it would be absurd to hold young-Gretzky to the same expectation of a two-way game, as, say, Guy Carbonneau. It would likely be more appropriate to compare 1981-1988 Gretzky with other 1st-line forwards on other offensive teams. For example, if you compared him with Denis Savard or Dale Hawerchuk or Marcel Dionne.

It's also worth noting that while defense in the traditional sense was clearly not Gretzky's forte, he was killing penalties regularly in the playoffs and often taking D-zone face-offs, etc. I would say his defensive value is of average level of 1st-line forwards of his time. (On the other hand, when the player is +28 in 18 playoff games, does anyone really care what his traditional defensive skill is? And should we?)

Well, that isn't actually very much when you're looking at a six-year period of going to the Finals every year but one. We could turn it around and say from 1983 to 1988 the Oilers' opponent was a plus .500 team in 15 of 22 series. (And two of the seven sub-.500 were Calgary in '83 and Detroit in '87, both strong teams on the rise. The Flames in '83 lost only five games at home all season.)

In addition, from 1983 to 1988 the Oilers defeated Chicago (104 points), Minnesota (1st in division), the Islanders (2nd overall, Cup champs), Philly (1st overall), Detroit (1st in division, albeit a weak 1st), Philly again (2nd overall), Calgary (1st overall), Detroit again (1st in division, 5th overall). So, it's not like it was a cake-walk.

In fact, of the seven sub-.500 opponents you refer to, only one (Detroit '87) occurred in the third or fourth round (and Detroit in '87 was a really good team).

I would suggest looking at Gretzky's stats those years based on the third and fourth-round only if you're thinking he was beating up mostly weak teams. You'll find it isn't so.

Of course he piled-on in blowouts more than Messier. He also scored points in close games and first-periods more than Messier. He scored more than twice as many points as Messier.

He did indeed, but never with Edmonton.

Gretzky was mediocre in 1990 (albeit he was injured and missed three games), good (Vancouver) and terrible (Edmonton) in 1991, and terrible in 1992. But he was great in 1989 and 1993 and 1997, and good in 1996.

Basically, he was awesome every playoff year except when he had to play against Edmonton (exception being 1989).
I don't doubt that this is the case due to Gretzky simply scoring more points than Messier, but do you have the numbers by chance? I suspect that they might be close in that regard in 1984 or 1987 specifically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
I don't know that it's about giving Gretzky a "free pass" as much as it's about not holding it against him.

The Oilers (and Kings?) playstyle were designed around making Gretzky Score. His Job was to score, and not play defense. You certainly can't hold that against him.

Doesn't mean you can't give credit to more defensive forwards for the contributions they made on defense, i just think you can't hold it against Gretzky.

If the coach says "go score, nothing else". That was his job, and that's what he should be evaluated on.

If there are a lot of examples where Gretzky was a problematic defensive liability that cost games, than sure, you can start holding that against him. Not sure that was really the case though.

Btw same logic above applies to Lemieux.
But you must consider that the same conditions that allowed for the amazing offensive displays also have a few instances where they didn't work out so well for the team. Gretzky deserves all the praise in the world for years like 1985 and 1988. But it also opens him up to some mild criticism for years like 1982 or 1991. That's all. I'm not advocating against Gretzky, just pointing out some reasons as to why somebody might not vote him #1.

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Yesterday, 09:59 PM
  #462
Kyle McMahon
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I didn't actually read the post but are we talking better as in he did it more times or better as in he did it more often per opportunity?

The number of games played in 4 round 7 game playoffs are going to affect the number opportunities to be in those "clutch" situations to an extreme degree in comparison to older times.
With regards to Sakic's clutchness, his 1996 playoffs stand out. Almost every goal he scored that spring was of at least reasonable importance. And he nearly broke the single-playoff goals record, so that's saying something.

You can make a strong argument that Colorado loses to any of Vancouver, Chicago, or Detroit without Sakic's contributions. He really was that valuable in every round right from the get-go. Those Avalanche weren't exactly loaded top to bottom like later editions were. Patrick Roy's performance in this particular Cup run doesn't stand out like his other three championships do.

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