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Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame?

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Old
05-17-2017, 11:29 AM
  #201
Moose Head
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To be honest, did Turgeon ever make a team better. Other than the 93 run, I never saw him take a team beyond expectations. Nice numbers and I certainly don't think he hurt his team's, but did he make them better?

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05-17-2017, 11:30 AM
  #202
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From the age of 18 - 21, Turgeon posted 25 points in 23 playoff games for Buffalo before being traded to the Islanders

Were people really expecting a 19/20 year old Turgeon to lead the Sabres to playoff glory?

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05-17-2017, 11:32 AM
  #203
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Let me start of by saying the OP has done himself absolutely no favours with the Gretzky comparison, even if it is just comparing Gretzky's time in St. Louis. To suggest that Turgeon was even in the same universe as Gretzky, even at that stage, is a pretty large credibility hit, IMO.

I watched Turgeon's entire career and saw him play very regularly during his (productive) time as a Montreal Canadien.

He was a supremely talented offensive player but other than that, he did virtually nothing. When the puck wasn't on Turgeon's stick, he might as well not have been on the ice. He did not play defensively, he did not play physically and his effort level - perhaps because he was so talented - left you always wanting more.

In many ways, he reminded me of another Pierre, Pierre Larouche. Supremely talented, offensively gifted, but you never got the feeling that he cared much whether his team won or lost. Turgeon could put up big numbers, but he seemed to lack that drive and it's no surprise at all that he won absolutely nothing in his career. He just didn't seem to care enough, didn't seem to try enough, didn't seem to work enough.

I will remember him as an incredibly talented and gifted offensive centre man who was entertaining to watch but to me he clearly is not a Hall of Famer. He's just not that kind of player. I can't think of any purely one dimensional players that never won any thing that are in the Hall of Fame.

Even guys like Darryl Sittler won a Canada Cup.

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05-17-2017, 12:00 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
I can't think of any purely one dimensional players that never won any thing that are in the Hall of Fame.
Bernie Federko, Peter Stastny, Gilbert Perreault, Marcel Dionne, Jean Ratelle, Dale Hawerchuk, to cite a few examples of centers who didn't have any needle-moving defense or toughness and never won anything.

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05-17-2017, 12:25 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Bernie Federko, Peter Stastny, Gilbert Perreault, Marcel Dionne, Jean Ratelle, Dale Hawerchuk, to cite a few examples of centers who didn't have any needle-moving defense or toughness and never won anything.
I would say every single one of those guys (with the possible exception of Marcel Dionne) were much better two way players that Pierre and definitely more engaged physically than Turgeon ever was.

I think Sittler is much closer to Turgeon than any of those guys.

I think Statsny, Perreault, Dionne and Ratelle are no brainer Hall of Famers. I don't have much issue with Hawerchuk either. I could see a case being made for Federko or Sittler not being in the Hall.

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05-17-2017, 03:45 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Bernie Federko, Peter Stastny, Gilbert Perreault, Marcel Dionne, Jean Ratelle, Dale Hawerchuk, to cite a few examples of centers who didn't have any needle-moving defense or toughness and never won anything.
Seem to recall Hawerchuk being the defensive conscious of his line playing LW in a couple of Canada Cups. Stastny also had a lot of bite to his game. I'd go to war with these two guys. Turgeon not so much.

Ratelle was a hell of a player and any team with him as their top center was a contender. Also won a Pearson against peak Orr and Espo. He had the respect of his opponents.

Federko was a bad pick for the HOF IMO.

The only real comparable from an all round basis on your list is probably Dionne, but he blows Turgeon away in terms of individual and offensive accomplishments. Two Pearsons against some HOF competition playing at or near peak is a hell of a compliment from the guys he faced. Was Turgeon ever in the conversation?


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05-17-2017, 04:41 PM
  #207
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I do feel he was underrated. The problem was: A) Soft spoken. Not a marketable guy. B) Fairly or unfairly, he's always going to be linked with Dale Hunter. Meaning that hit is the first thing to come to mind for some.
Well that and staying on the bench during the Punch-up in Piestany and allowing his teammates to get outnumbered.

The "Tin Man" nickname didn't come out of nowhere.

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05-17-2017, 04:45 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Moose Head View Post
The only real comparable from an all round basis on your list is probably Dionne, but he blows Turgeon away in terms of individual and offensive accomplishments. Two Pearsons against some HOF competition playing at or near peak is a hell of a compliment from the guys he faced. Was Turgeon ever in the conversation?
The truly remarkable thing about Marcel Dionne's accomplishments is that he achieved the vast majority of his success playing in Los Angeles and dealing with that gruelling travel. Not only was the travel incredibly difficult but the Kings ended up practicing a fraction as often as their competitors because of the time that was consumed with traveling to and from their road games. While other teams would arrive in a city after a short flight then have an afternoon skate, this wasn't an option for the Kings. Plenty of teams would play a game then travel home after the game and be at their practice rink the following day while the Kings would have to stay over in a city, travel the following day and miss the chance to have an off-day practice. Not only did this handicap the team and the players, it doesn't even factor in the fatigue issue was well from all that traveling and time zone hoping. Dionne said this was a massive disadvantage for the Kings during his time there. Despite all that, he still produced at an incredible rate.

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05-17-2017, 09:03 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
I can't think of any purely one dimensional players that never won any thing that are in the Hall of Fame.
Phil Housley? Guy only got past the first round in his better years (and that was as a rookie in '83)

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05-17-2017, 09:18 PM
  #210
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That's what hurts him the most, it's the "good batting average, low RBI" type of thinking with him. With the numbers he has, he needs those intangibles to help him. I've said it before, but he's got a lot of the Phil Housley-esque qualities that people didn't like about him. No one denies Housley wasn't good offensively.
So was Housley a 'low batting average, good HR/RBI' type?

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05-17-2017, 09:26 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by ChrisK97 View Post
Phil Housley? Guy only got past the first round in his better years (and that was as a rookie in '83)
Good call.

He went to the Final with Washington in '98 and lost.

But he's also the fourth highest scoring defensemen of all time, so it's not much of a stretch that he's in the Hall of Fame.

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05-17-2017, 09:51 PM
  #212
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Turgeon just did not have the heart of a champion. Whether fair or unfair, he never really lived down sitting on the bench, when the brawl at the 1987 World Junior Championships took place. His teammates never forgave him.

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05-17-2017, 10:05 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Good call.

He went to the Final with Washington in '98 and lost.

But he's also the fourth highest scoring defensemen of all time, so it's not much of a stretch that he's in the Hall of Fame.
Housley also set up most of Teemu Selanne's 76 goals, when he shattered the rookie goal scoring record.

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05-17-2017, 10:49 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe View Post
Well that and staying on the bench during the Punch-up in Piestany and allowing his teammates to get outnumbered.

The "Tin Man" nickname didn't come out of nowhere.
That incident was grossly misrepresented. Fleury had some interesting thoughts on the perception of Turgeon after the WJC.

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05-18-2017, 06:47 AM
  #215
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So, in Piestany, was he really the only one to stay on the bench?

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05-18-2017, 07:58 AM
  #216
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It's not just sentiment. I feel like players, all of the time, with either worse numbers than Turgeon or similar ones are treated as locks for hall of fame, whether they have won cups or not.

I watched Gretzky play, and then I watched Turgeon play the very next season. Turgeon was way better... It's sickening to think one guy can be treated as the best of all-time, while... "mr. hall of very good" was way more impressive.

Look at Gretzky now. You wouldn't even be able to realize he used to play hockey. On the other hand, Turgeon, right now, at w/e "old age" he is... looks better than every center on our roster now.

There has to be something going on here. Be it starting out in the smallest market, too quiet to draw attention to himself, etc, etc. Something. Cause his play and his numbers, IMO, warrant far more consideration than he gets.

I feel like in the non salary cap era, it was easy for good players to get over shadowed, depending on their team. Teams today suck so bad in comparison to that era. In the past, depending on your team... you're going to be playing along a lot of hall of famers. So, even if you're a fringe hall of famer, you're not going to stand out, at all.

I feel like that is part of it. When Brett Hull is on your team, along with Pronger and Macinnis, not even mentioning Demitra... there's only so much attention to go around one team.

Kessel in Pittsburg has a hard enough time, as is, and he would never be heard of if that team was pre cap era.
Who would that be? Just curious. Because you mentioned MacKinnon right? I have no idea who is assuming he'll be a HHOFer because that guy has a LOT to do in order to even have the projection of one. He had a fine rookie season, but has regressed since then. I think people just assume he will bust out eventually, but it is far from a sure thing. At the same age, Turgeon had accomplished much more and was much more revered around the league.

Here is the thing with Turgeon, he can play on my team, but I don't even think I like the idea of him as a #1 center. There was something about him that made you immediately think your team wasn't going to win when the going got tough. He was basically ignored his entire career on Team Canada. Sure, a lot of great centers were for Canada because of the backlog but at least there are others that perhaps should or could have played. You are surprised Savard was never there, or Francis, or even Oates could have fit in somewhere, or you can see it at least. Turgeon never gets that, and to be honest I can't see how he would.

The soft spoken thing doesn't matter to me. Joe Sakic was soft spoken, I barely saw him marketing things and he almost never had a soundbite for the media, yet with the exact overlapping of a career there is no contest between him and Turgeon. The Gretzky thing in St. Louis isn't the best comparison. There is only one season where Turgeon would be considered "better" than Gretzky and that would be Gretzky's final one in 1999, and even then.........

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that despite a good backlog of centers during Turgeon's era he didn't stand out. Lafontaine, Oates, Fedorov and others stood out more. I know this enrages some people because we've talked about it ad nauseam but Turgeon is closer to Nicholls than a legitimate HHOF center. If Bernie Nicholls is your #1 center you aren't any worse off, and the playoff careers show this.

Lastly, Turgeon scored a lot of points in NHL history but can you remember any of them? When did he have a great playoff run, I mean even one? 20 years in the NHL if there was one player who needed that it was him. Those Blues teams were often overshadowed by the Wings but how about the year 2000? You have two of the top 3 defensemen on your team and you are bounced out first round. That was the perfect time for St. Louis to do something and they didn't. They didn't lose to Detroit or Colorado or Dallas. They lost to San Jose and they'd have had home ice advantage the entire playoffs because they were 1st overall in points.

Also, the best season he had - 1993 - he finished 6th in all-star voting at center. 20 years playing center and putting up a bunch of points you expect more. Tyler Seguin and John Tavares already have that beat.

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05-18-2017, 08:13 AM
  #217
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So was Housley a 'low batting average, good HR/RBI' type?
Yeah, sort of. I mean, you are in good shape if he's QBing your power play. He led the entire NHL in power play points with 57 in 1992. This was the only time he was a 2nd team all-star. But he rarely killed penalties in his career and was a liability on the ice defensively other times. Usually the complaint is that a player like Housley is a high batting average guy with low RBIs. I remember Harry Sinden had that complaint about Marc Savard with those exact words. In other words, puts up decent numbers but doesn't do a lot of other things to help you win. If you want to be that type of player you'd better light the lamp even more often than Housley. I wouldn't call Housley the type of player who controlled the pace of the game either. On the power play, yes. He did. Even strength not so much. There were plenty of other defensemen during his time who controlled the pace of the game better.

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So, in Piestany, was he really the only one to stay on the bench?
I think so. There were a couple others that were accused of not doing anything on the ice (ie. helping a teammate who was getting doubled teamed by two Russians) but even so much as finding another Russian on the ice and grabbing hold of him would have been an improvement. I know Gretzky always said in a brawl he looked for the guy who rarely fought and he'd find him because that player was looking for him too. At least then you are paired up with an opponent and no one is out numbered.

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Turgeon just did not have the heart of a champion. Whether fair or unfair, he never really lived down sitting on the bench, when the brawl at the 1987 World Junior Championships took place. His teammates never forgave him.
I don't always like holding what he did as a 17 year old against him but there are times when a player doesn't do anything over his NHL career to change that perception. Lindros was - and is - to this day penalized for what he did to his OHL and NHL teams that drafted him. You'd forget that if he didn't act basically the same way throughout his career. Turgeon is sort of the same way. He had a bad reputation even leading up to the draft of staying on the bench to the point where the idea might have been that it was better to take Shanahan. But then he got saddled with that nickname "tin man" early in his career and every time Turgeon was just average in the playoffs and never elevated his game it always re-iterated his soft reputation.

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05-18-2017, 10:00 AM
  #218
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Here is the thing with Turgeon,
- I knew there was no way you could write a post that long and not say this!

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05-18-2017, 10:05 AM
  #219
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I would say every single one of those guys (with the possible exception of Marcel Dionne) were much better two way players that Pierre and definitely more engaged physically than Turgeon ever was.

I think Sittler is much closer to Turgeon than any of those guys.

I think Statsny, Perreault, Dionne and Ratelle are no brainer Hall of Famers. I don't have much issue with Hawerchuk either. I could see a case being made for Federko or Sittler not being in the Hall.
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Originally Posted by Moose Head View Post
Seem to recall Hawerchuk being the defensive conscious of his line playing LW in a couple of Canada Cups. Stastny also had a lot of bite to his game. I'd go to war with these two guys. Turgeon not so much.

Ratelle was a hell of a player and any team with him as their top center was a contender. Also won a Pearson against peak Orr and Espo. He had the respect of his opponents.

Federko was a bad pick for the HOF IMO.

The only real comparable from an all round basis on your list is probably Dionne, but he blows Turgeon away in terms of individual and offensive accomplishments. Two Pearsons against some HOF competition playing at or near peak is a hell of a compliment from the guys he faced. Was Turgeon ever in the conversation?
Just answering the question. Those guys are all, for all intents and purposes, one-dimensional. Stastny getting his stick up a couple times and Hawerchuk playing a role in a best on best briefly doesn't change the fact that they were offense-only players - no one is writing a 2 paragraph HHOF bio talking about those kinds of things (like they would for an Yzerman or Messier) and no one is taking them in the all-time draft expecting them to be the physical or defensive presence on a scoring line.

(and yes, Federko was a bad pick and I don't see any way Turgeon isn't better, but that in itself doesn't make Turgeon a HHOFer, of course)

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05-18-2017, 11:06 AM
  #220
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- I knew there was no way you could write a post that long and not say this!
oh I know, there is just a lot of "things" with him, haha

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05-18-2017, 11:13 AM
  #221
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Just answering the question. Those guys are all, for all intents and purposes, one-dimensional. Stastny getting his stick up a couple times and Hawerchuk playing a role in a best on best briefly doesn't change the fact that they were offense-only players - no one is writing a 2 paragraph HHOF bio talking about those kinds of things (like they would for an Yzerman or Messier) and no one is taking them in the all-time draft expecting them to be the physical or defensive presence on a scoring line.

(and yes, Federko was a bad pick and I don't see any way Turgeon isn't better, but that in itself doesn't make Turgeon a HHOFer, of course)
Out of those names I would say Hawerchuk was at least what I would deem as "good" defensively. Tenacious, etc.

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