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Future of Finnish Goalies

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Old
12-14-2016, 03:42 PM
  #1
Koijari
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Future of Finnish Goalies

Now that the darkest clouds are behind us and Finland is again producing quality players, what about goalies? Rinne is turning 35 next year and Rask 30. Are there any new promising prospect coming up? Apparently some are worried about our goaltending in the near future.

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12-14-2016, 05:08 PM
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Drake744
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Juuse Saros.

Dominating the AHL and is all but certainly replacing Rinne when he's done in Nashville.

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12-14-2016, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
Juuse Saros.

Dominating the AHL and is all but certainly replacing Rinne when he's done in Nashville.
Sorry, forgot to mention that Saros is of course one. Happy that he is doing well.

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12-14-2016, 05:28 PM
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JJTT
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Some names to keep an eye for:

-99, 2017 draft

Ukko Pekka Luukkonen, 194 cm 86 kg
Daniel Lebedeff, 187 cm 81 kg
Eetu M�kiniemi, 189 cm 80 kg
Lassi Lehtinen 181 cm 74 kg
Oskar Autio, 181 cm 81 kg (late birthday, 2018 draft)

-00, 2018 draft

Justus Annunen 194 cm 85 kg
Jimi Uusitalo 187 cm 86 kg
Kalle Nurmi 186 cm 82 kg
Santtu Toivom�ki 187 cm 82 kg
Henrik Tikkanen 197 cm 84 kg (late birthday, 2019 draft)

-01, 2019 draft

Matti Fingerroos 175 cm
Roope Taponen 173 cm
Sebastian Katajainen 183cm
Severi Soukka 175cm

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12-14-2016, 05:41 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJTT View Post
Some names to keep an eye for:

-99, 2017 draft

Ukko Pekka Luukkonen, 194 cm 86 kg
Daniel Lebedeff, 187 cm 81 kg
Eetu M�kiniemi, 189 cm 80 kg
Lassi Lehtinen 181 cm 74 kg
Oskar Autio, 181 cm 81 kg (late birthday, 2018 draft)

-00, 2018 draft

Justus Annunen 194 cm 85 kg
Jimi Uusitalo 187 cm 86 kg
Kalle Nurmi 186 cm 82 kg
Santtu Toivom�ki 187 cm 82 kg
Henrik Tikkanen 197 cm 84 kg (late birthday, 2019 draft)

-01, 2019 draft

Matti Fingerroos 175 cm
Roope Taponen 173 cm
Sebastian Katajainen 183cm
Severi Soukka 175cm
Thanks, just what I wished for!

Tikkanen is 16 years old and 197cm !

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12-21-2016, 02:11 AM
  #6
FiLe
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One thing to keep in mind about goalies is that they don't follow similar kind of development curve as skaters do. Many a goalie who doesn't look like an elite prospect at U20 age may well develop into an elite adult goalie.

Even Finland's reputation as a goalie factory is mostly thanks to late bloomers. We've more or less only had two names throughout the modern hockey history that could have been called phenoms in their junior years - Lehtonen and Rask. For the rest, like Kipper, Bckstrm, Niemi and who else, the breakout age has actually been as high as than 25 and up.

So if you wish to get a sense of Finland's "upcoming" goalie crop, you shouldn't yet eye the late 90-borns and early 00-borns, but the early-to-mid 90-borns. Names like Saros, Korpisalo, Husso, Khknen, etc etc. Even a 91-born goalie like Ortio is not yet a lost cause, and may still yet be an NHL starter one day - not to mention late 80-borns like Koskinen and Raanta, who still have many miles in them. Not all of them will be stars of course, just like not every promising skater prospect will be, but they're the ones who will form our backstopping backbone for the next decade or so. We may have to wait 'til mid-2020s before we see the breakout of names listed by JJTT.


Last edited by FiLe: 12-21-2016 at 02:17 AM.
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12-21-2016, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
One thing to keep in mind about goalies is that they don't follow similar kind of development curve as skaters do. Many a goalie who doesn't look like an elite prospect at U20 age may well develop into an elite adult goalie.

Even Finland's reputation as a goalie factory is mostly thanks to late bloomers. We've more or less only had two names throughout the modern hockey history that could have been called phenoms in their junior years - Lehtonen and Rask. For the rest, like Kipper, B�ckstr�m, Niemi and who else, the breakout age has actually been as high as than 25 and up.JJTT.
Kiprusoff went into Northern America in a time when there were no Finnish starting goaltenders in the league. Just to put it in right historical frame if and when future, average starters appear, especially now that Czech Republic and Slovakia are falling behind in resources. You cannot draw a timeline of continuum in such drastic chances to the world of ice hockey.

I would say Rask, Saros, Lehtonen and Kiprusoff all had done wonderful work in the Eurasian scene. They were all highly rated with fantastic education. They will likely trade Saros also for the fun of it...

Rinne and Koskinen are more fitting late bloomers thanks to their height, similar to Eero Markkanen, taking more development time. I still wouldn't count goalies of that caliber as pillars unlike the first four names who are top-10 goalies of this world. Only a true top netminder gives you an advantage, even if a regular kind of geezer can fill the void.

So yes there will be Finnish NHL goalies. But will Finland ever again hold the international scepter in having three active Kiprusoff-class goaltenders? Bit like with Nokia... it is even unrealistic to continue to stay ahead in a game which draws influences from around the world.

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12-21-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulipunaruusu View Post
Kiprusoff went into Northern America in a time when there were no Finnish starting goaltenders in the league. Just to put it in right historical frame if and when future, average starters appear, especially now that Czech Republic and Slovakia are falling behind in resources. You cannot draw a timeline of continuum in such drastic chances to the world of ice hockey.
Goalies mature slower than skaters, that's a fact. The examples I presented were more to accentuate said fact, not prove it. If you want proof, you can look at goalies of any nationality, not just Finnish ones.

And out of curiosity, what kind of a comparison point does a soccer striker make to a hockey goalie? In terms of performance requirements, those two couldn't be more apart. If it's "being tall", that's small beer.

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12-21-2016, 03:23 PM
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Goalies mature slower than skaters, that's a fact. The examples I presented were more to accentuate said fact, not prove it. If you want proof, you can look at goalies of any nationality, not just Finnish ones.
You cannot say Kiprusoff (or Tim Thomas!) for example didn't thrive in Eurasian scene before having the same success in the NHL as times also changed drastically and historically for goaltenders coming out of Finland. Rask and Lehtonen (second overall pick!) were clear starters (beating the other goalies) in the AHL, just as Kiprusoff and Saros. I would not say it took extended time for them since in their first NHL season both were posting better numbers than the other competition which for Rask was Thomas out of all goaltenders. Even the hastily traded Kiprusoff was posting numbers matching with Nabokov, in his first, short twenty games campaign.

So every standout Finnish goalie of this millennium in my books at least was identified as a potential world class goalie very early in the process through their professional performance alone. I do not count Rinne into this club given that Nashville's style of play ranging from collective defence to possession of the puck and defensive material has always worked in his favour.

I doubt there would not be any more late bloomers given Finland's absolute standing at the narrow top of the ice hockey world in resources alone but to say they have the same chances as those Finnish world class goalies I would say is hopeless to begin with. You can still perform well at the NHL level but I would prefer those taking the Hasek route if we are to forecast Finnish top goaltenders rather than someone making it with time. After all there was a period of eight years before Saros was sired, after Rask.

Getting your body control up to the same level as someone less tall then takes time. You can compare football's target-men and huge goalies such as Bishop, Rinne or Koskinen. For those it usually takes longer to break through.

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Old
12-22-2016, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulipunaruusu View Post
So every standout Finnish goalie of this millennium in my books at least was identified as a potential world class goalie very early in the process through their professional performance alone. I do not count Rinne into this club given that Nashville's style of play ranging from collective defence to possession of the puck and defensive material has always worked in his favour.
So you're picking cherries and coming up with outrageous comparisons to support your argument. Nothing new, of course. I think we're done here.

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12-22-2016, 03:54 AM
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At least I do not falsify history or even ignore completely the overall narrative of time and change as I suspect most of the Finnish fandom here is doing: they do not for example see how the now assumed 'golden generation' fits into the big picture. Because this recent golden generation does not exist if you count anything else in than those beyond horrible age classes.

Some bash Lehtonen because he plays in a poorly defending team. I do not. Some praise Rinne because he has always benefitted from a great defending team. I do not.

Even if you include Rinne into the list of Finnish world class goaltenders it is still one, huge goalie of the five who didn't have enormous success in Eurasian leagues to begin with. There are just 2-3 jobs for goaltenders in one team in the NHL after all so no wonder it might take time.

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12-22-2016, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulipunaruusu View Post
At least I do not falsify history or even ignore completely the overall narrative of time and change as I suspect most of the Finnish fandom here is doing: they do not for example see how the now assumed 'golden generation' fits into the big picture. Because this recent golden generation does not exist if you count anything else in than those beyond horrible age classes.
If if if. If a cow had wheels, it'd be a milk wagon.

You can come up with whatever ego-boosting metrics that supposedly "prove" superior understanding, but in the end, the supposed "big" picture is limited exactly where we choose to place the frames. There might be more to it, but I see nothing wrong with measuring overall success by how a player supposedly does in two arenas - the NHL and the NT. A player with no accomplishments from either is necessarily not a bad player, and I'm usually one of the first to jump in a player's defense if I think he's being judged hastily, but a player who does have accomplishments from one or preferably both is so often a good one, that it still works as a de facto metric. And if we have plenty of players who do well under that metric at the same time, it's perfectly acceptable to perceive it as a "golden" generation. As the situation is right now.

In fact, even pro coaches agree. Let's say there's a major international tournament and the coach has a choice between a full-time NHL goalie who may have one decent season under his belt and an accomplished, seasoned KHL goalie. Which one gets the starter nod?

And btw, I happen to think that the gap between an NHL player and a solid Euro league one is smaller than most people perceive. Still I see nothing wrong with people having preference to NHLers and using it as the dominating metric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulipunaruusu View Post
Some bash Lehtonen because he plays in a poorly defending team. I do not. Some praise Rinne because he has always benefitted from a great defending team. I do not.
I think both are world class goalies in their own right. Only way to say which one's better would be to compare them in a total vacuum, and that's sadly impossible.

And as of this moment, the next crop of Finnish elite goalies to break into the NHL big time (and thus, the "future") are somewhat younger than Rask, but not so young that they'd still be part of the junior machine. Apart from Saros and likely Korpisalo (who's another big, future elite goalie but not a junior phenom), we can't really say yet which ones of them will eventually make it.


Last edited by FiLe: 12-22-2016 at 06:18 AM.
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12-22-2016, 06:14 AM
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Who gets the nod is of course a question of larger cultural construct so I would say the NHL goalie is selected.

For similar reason Finland's World Cup team featured plenty of NHL experienced advisors and very few of Finnish ice hockey's most brilliant and educated minds.

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12-22-2016, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulipunaruusu View Post
Who gets the nod is of course a question of larger cultural construct so I would say the NHL goalie is selected.

For similar reason Finland's World Cup team featured plenty of NHL experienced advisors and very few of Finnish ice hockey's most brilliant and educated minds.
I thought hauling all those former players along for the ride was ridiculous too.

Though once again I have to wonder about your choice of analogues, since that is in no way comparable to player selection, IMO. I'd say there's still a justification for picking NHLers over Euro leaguers, that being the coach usually knowing what he gets. Yes, he could get something equally good from this side of the pond in some occasions, but when he picks NHLers, at least he gets it in a package that kind of comes with a seal of guaranteed quality. Usually.

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12-22-2016, 12:41 PM
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Rinne was chosen over Rask for the World Cup by the former goalie coach of Rinne in Krpt... It ain't all meritocracy when whole organizations in the NHL for example are build on personal relations. NHL has fairly ridiculous standing in the Finnish ice hockey discussion which to most Finnish ice hockey people tend to succumb instead of challenging the long assumed assertion of a supreme, fair judging league far far away.

The recent World Cup fiasco could have changed the path of Finnish ice hockey just as top of the world goaltending education once did for a while but it does not seem to have worked into a change for better days. Finnish ice hockey people are not free from the almost unconscious rule of our NHL overlords. Before that happens it is hard as a nation to accurately scout goalies or more clear cases such as Puljujrvi's state of game.

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12-24-2016, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
One thing to keep in mind about goalies is that they don't follow similar kind of development curve as skaters do. Many a goalie who doesn't look like an elite prospect at U20 age may well develop into an elite adult goalie.

Even Finland's reputation as a goalie factory is mostly thanks to late bloomers. We've more or less only had two names throughout the modern hockey history that could have been called phenoms in their junior years - Lehtonen and Rask. For the rest, like Kipper, Bckstrm, Niemi and who else, the breakout age has actually been as high as than 25 and up.

So if you wish to get a sense of Finland's "upcoming" goalie crop, you shouldn't yet eye the late 90-borns and early 00-borns, but the early-to-mid 90-borns. Names like Saros, Korpisalo, Husso, Khknen, etc etc. Even a 91-born goalie like Ortio is not yet a lost cause, and may still yet be an NHL starter one day - not to mention late 80-borns like Koskinen and Raanta, who still have many miles in them. Not all of them will be stars of course, just like not every promising skater prospect will be, but they're the ones who will form our backstopping backbone for the next decade or so. We may have to wait 'til mid-2020s before we see the breakout of names listed by JJTT.
Kiprusoff was huge talent at young age. Second European goalie drafted in his year after Toskala. European goalies were looked bit different still at those times and the scouting wasnt on the same level as today. I mean Bckstrm could have been drafted if it would have been ten years later. In late 90s teams still drafted overagers/old school goalies like Prusek and Cechmanek who represented everything, but the new wave of goaltending.

Sure we did have some late bloomers (Niemi I guess the best example) , but in those days we had sort of edge in goaltending developing compared to many nations. If you look todays NHL most of the goalies were big talents(and high draftees) at young age. Sure some late bloomers may and will come, but expecting things happen against the odds is not good way to go.

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12-24-2016, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulipunaruusu View Post
Who gets the nod is of course a question of larger cultural construct so I would say the NHL goalie is selected.

For similar reason Finland's World Cup team featured plenty of NHL experienced advisors and very few of Finnish ice hockey's most brilliant and educated minds.
World Cup is not a relevant comparison, every team had old farts with them as advisors - I suspect NHL forced then onto all teams for PR purposes. Better for NA media to interview Selnne, a household name, over Finnish team than neverhd Marjamki.

Problem was, as newbie coach to NA ice, Marjamki listened to the old farts instead of trusting himself.

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12-24-2016, 04:07 PM
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Yes, it is very likely that World Cup provided marketing opportunities, even for the Finnish Ice Hockey Federation which hasn't exactly turned down any opportunity to hangout with NHLers. Raimo Summanen had even less of coaching experience than Marjamki when he led the team into the 2004 World Cup play-off stage but he had the support staff at least.

I think the whole concept of Northern American ice suddenly changing approach to an ice hockey game can potentially compromise even more experienced head coaches than Marjamki if it is allowed to build a life of its own in domestic ice hockey organizations and in the rather monotone talk surrounding them. For example the Finnish NHL veterans who had this Northern American mindset in them during the Vancouver olympics lived and died by that bronze rule, failing to adapt so I doubt the NHL approach is the most secure ground to build on after all.

Changing continents might be a new life for the players who are most often very young but we are talking of educated and experienced staff after all. I doubt the Finnish goalie revolution or Soviet domination would have ever happened if they would have only followed what is happening in the NHL instead of taking the effort to develop something of their own. There is so rare Eurasian coaching influence in the NHL for example that how could North America truly work as the highest level ice hockey laboratory...

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04-06-2017, 01:54 PM
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I think Ville Husso should be right up there in the discussion. Will probably back up Jake Allen if not start over him in the very near future.

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06-05-2017, 11:19 PM
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Dunno about Finnish goalies but Lukko just signed on a try out basis french goaltender Sebastian Ylonen, son of the late great Petri Ylonen!

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