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Can't trade Bieksa or Tanev are only two natural right Dman, Hamhuis and Garrison have NTC's, only leaves Edler and Ballard as trade bait, Ballard has outplayed Edler all season why not look at moving Edler might even get something descent in return
Dear god no. Get a grip. Ballard's rise in play quality has arisen from a return to basics that has all but eliminated both his costly risks and any upside the Canucks would hope to harvest from his 4.2 mil salary.
A change of scenery is still desperately needed for both parties (for the Canucks, because this play-style change will not allow him to be worth the 4.2 he's paid.... they're giving up on that).
Fans are mistaking a lack of mistakes for a rise in decision making when in reality, the Canucks/Ballard are limiting his decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic
So I've noticed this thread is becoming less about Ballard, and more about how awful Vigneault is.
How common is this opinion among the Canucks fanbase?
AV is not without his faults but the Canucks fanbase is hardly an unbiased account of his capabilities. They have an extreme tendency to scapegoat: Bieksa, Raymond, Ballard.... half the other players on the roster at various times.
But...who will be in AV's doghouse when Ballard leaves? who will ride the pine after a bad goal against?! There has to be a scapegoat...its the only way...
Dear god no. Get a grip. Ballard's rise in play quality has arisen from a return to basics that has all but eliminated both his costly risks and any upside the Canucks would hope to harvest from his 4.2 mil salary.
A change of scenery is still desperately needed for both parties (for the Canucks, because this play-style change will not allow him to be worth the 4.2 he's paid.... they're giving up on that).
Fans are mistaking a lack of mistakes for a rise in decision making when in reality, the Canucks/Ballard are limiting his decisions.
AV is not without his faults but the Canucks fanbase is hardly an unbiased account of his capabilities. They have an extreme tendency to scapegoat: Bieksa, Raymond, Ballard.... half the other players on the roster at various times.
Agreed. Ballard does not (and will not - it seems) play the style Vineault expects.
Ballard plays soft, but is a fabulous skater and a decent puck mover.
Ballard is one of our only d-men that doesn't play soft. You just look at heights and determine players 'softness'.
Ballard is a hard nosed player, it's before ever playing in Vancouver, he was top 5 in the league in hits and blocked shots. Vancouver's style doesn't suit his game.
So I've noticed this thread is becoming less about Ballard, and more about how awful Vigneault is.
How common is this opinion among the Canucks fanbase?
I'm probably one of the few Canucks fans that isn't on the fire AV bandwagon. For the majority of Canucks fans, they want to see him gone quick.
For me, having been a fan since the 70s, I've seen some really bad Canucks teams, and AV has, without a doubt, been our most successful coach in franchise history. Not only taking the team to the finals (which only 2 other coaches in our history have done), but set team records, including back to back Presidents' (only 2 in franchise history), and has been the head coach during the franchise's most successful era ever.
For me, that's hard to ignore, despite his faults. And there's no doubt he has faults, which frustrate a lot of fans. The Ballard situation is one of them. It's clear to anyone who's followed him since he arrived in Vancouver, that Ballard is a much better player right now then when he first started here. He is clearly having a solid season overall, and has been solid since returning from his last injury, last season. He was consistent through to the end of last season, through the playoffs, and again through this season, so it's really baffling that AV still seems to have him planted firmly in the dog-house.
It should be noted though that there have been other players in similar situations who have managed to come out of that dog-house under AV. Hansen is a prime example. Read back the threads on him from when he first started with the franchise, and you'll read a lot of similar comments to what we get from Ballard - why does AV have such a hate-on for him, doesn't use him, etc... right now Hansen is clearly one of his favorites and is used in all situations, moved up the lineup consistently and few players are trusted in key defensive situations more so than Hansen. It took him years however to get to that level.
Easier to explain the Hansen situation though as he was a rookie coming in and like all young players AV just doesn't have a lot of trust in them. It took Hansen a few seasons to gain that trust. With Ballard it's different, as he's a veteran who was learning the new system, and you'd think that once he's proven capable of handling that, AV would trust him more to take a bigger role, but that hasn't been the case.
With that said, I've seen a long line of coaches here in Vancouver and they have all come with faults. Canucks fans will constantly complain about every coach we have here, and when AV is gone, none of that will change. We saw the same thing with Crawford as well - he had his favorites and those that weren't were shipped out - including Aucoin and Scatchard, who were both solid pieces in Vancouver, but didn't get along with Crawford and were traded - and did well in their careers soon after being dealt.
AV is stubborn. He has his favorites and rides them. He has his systems and forces players to adapt, even if it takes away from their strenghts. He's not a coach that can take the best qualities of a player or line and adapt his system around them, it's always the other way around (despite him saying he does the opposite). So he's far from perfect and there's a lot one can be frustrated about with him. But at the end of the day, as a long-time fan, what I see, and what's most important to me, is what the team is doing overall. He's coming off back to back Presidents', is currently in the best streak of successful seasons this franchise has ever had. Got them to game 7 of the finals, despite dealing with several key injuries, including losing our top shutdown defender, and he's also managed to put a system together where the team could be among the best offensive teams, PP teams, defensive teams and PK teams in the league. That's not an easy task for any coach with any group of players. A lot of fans give less credit to AV for that though then they do the players, but we've seen some stacked teams over the years that haven't been able to accomplish that.
When you take the good with the bad, and consider all the other coaches we've had through the years here, and the success level overall of coaches around the league, AV should definitely be considered an elite coach. That doesn't mean he's without faults, and player management is one of them for sure. Still his systems are great, and he does get a lot out of his players. There are better coaches, but there are a lot of worse ones out there, and given that there's a much better chance that whoever eventually replaces AV is likely not going to have the same level of success he's had here. And given what we've seen from this fan base and the many coaches we've had over the years, I can guarantee that once the initial shine of the new coach is gone, there will be plenty of hatred towards whoever is the next coach in Vancouver.
The one thing Ottawa needs almost as much as a top-6 forward (seriously, any top-6 forward. We really don't have any at the moment.) is a good puck moving defenseman, ever since Karlsson went down.
Gonchar's old and playing extremely conservatively - more focused on defense than driving the offense this season. Wiercioch is solid offensively but still defensively suspect, and can't handle playing against top lines. Benoit's pretty good as a fill-in, but, like Wiercioch, there's no way you can justify giving him top minutes. Methot's actually good at getting the puck moving forward, but he's stuck playing with Gryba, who handles the puck like a grenade.
The only person worse than Gryba with the puck is Phillips.
Ballard absolutely fills a need for the Sens. In fact, I'd say he'd be the almost-perfect pickup for this team. When Karlsson went down, we lost our only defenseman capable of skating the puck from our end into the offensive zone and setting up there. While Ballard is nowhere near Karlsson, he is, at least historically, one of the better defensemen in the league at skating the puck up the ice and establishing possession in the zone. We need that. Desperately. Especially when Michalek and Spezza come back, we need someone on the backend who can complement them and drive some offense. And before they come back, our forwards need all the help they can get from the backend in driving offense, and the defensemen we have right now just aren't capable of getting that done.
As much as I like Regin, I'd be 100% on board with this deal. Though I'd rather give up a 2nd instead.
For the millionth time, if he can't play the right side with aplomb - ie, he likes it and he's comfortable there, there is ZERO point in making a trade for him.
Cowen, Phillips, Methot, Wiercioch - all left handed, all basically locked into playing in Ottawa for the foreseeable future. It's easy to say we 'need' a guy like Ballard, but when reality sets in we need a right handed version of Ballard.
Ballard is one of our only d-men that doesn't play soft. You just look at heights and determine players 'softness'.
Ballard is a hard nosed player, it's before ever playing in Vancouver, he was top 5 in the league in hits and blocked shots. Vancouver's style doesn't suit his game.
We have had this discussion (disagreement) about what soft is before. Ballard is a soft player in this regard: When defending the rush, he backs up too quickly, giving up his blue-line, because he wants to get back early on dump-ins, so he won't have to TAKE hits. Coach V (as do most NHL coaches) wants his D to stay up on their blue-line, and force dump-ins - or turn overs. Ballard 'cheats', and tries to get back early. Other teams dump the puck behind opponent's D in order to hit them, and 'soften' them up. Ballard gets 'softened' up too easily.
This is why the Rangers put Wade Redden in the minors. D cannot play that way in the NHL, and expect the team to win, especially when they are paid top dollar.
I'm probably one of the few Canucks fans that isn't on the fire AV bandwagon. For the majority of Canucks fans, they want to see him gone quick.
For me, having been a fan since the 70s, I've seen some really bad Canucks teams, and AV has, without a doubt, been our most successful coach in franchise history. Not only taking the team to the finals (which only 2 other coaches in our history have done), but set team records, including back to back Presidents' (only 2 in franchise history), and has been the head coach during the franchise's most successful era ever.
For me, that's hard to ignore, despite his faults. And there's no doubt he has faults, which frustrate a lot of fans. The Ballard situation is one of them. It's clear to anyone who's followed him since he arrived in Vancouver, that Ballard is a much better player right now then when he first started here. He is clearly having a solid season overall, and has been solid since returning from his last injury, last season. He was consistent through to the end of last season, through the playoffs, and again through this season, so it's really baffling that AV still seems to have him planted firmly in the dog-house.
It should be noted though that there have been other players in similar situations who have managed to come out of that dog-house under AV. Hansen is a prime example. Read back the threads on him from when he first started with the franchise, and you'll read a lot of similar comments to what we get from Ballard - why does AV have such a hate-on for him, doesn't use him, etc... right now Hansen is clearly one of his favorites and is used in all situations, moved up the lineup consistently and few players are trusted in key defensive situations more so than Hansen. It took him years however to get to that level.
Easier to explain the Hansen situation though as he was a rookie coming in and like all young players AV just doesn't have a lot of trust in them. It took Hansen a few seasons to gain that trust. With Ballard it's different, as he's a veteran who was learning the new system, and you'd think that once he's proven capable of handling that, AV would trust him more to take a bigger role, but that hasn't been the case.
With that said, I've seen a long line of coaches here in Vancouver and they have all come with faults. Canucks fans will constantly complain about every coach we have here, and when AV is gone, none of that will change. We saw the same thing with Crawford as well - he had his favorites and those that weren't were shipped out - including Aucoin and Scatchard, who were both solid pieces in Vancouver, but didn't get along with Crawford and were traded - and did well in their careers soon after being dealt.
AV is stubborn. He has his favorites and rides them. He has his systems and forces players to adapt, even if it takes away from their strenghts. He's not a coach that can take the best qualities of a player or line and adapt his system around them, it's always the other way around (despite him saying he does the opposite). So he's far from perfect and there's a lot one can be frustrated about with him. But at the end of the day, as a long-time fan, what I see, and what's most important to me, is what the team is doing overall. He's coming off back to back Presidents', is currently in the best streak of successful seasons this franchise has ever had. Got them to game 7 of the finals, despite dealing with several key injuries, including losing our top shutdown defender, and he's also managed to put a system together where the team could be among the best offensive teams, PP teams, defensive teams and PK teams in the league. That's not an easy task for any coach with any group of players. A lot of fans give less credit to AV for that though then they do the players, but we've seen some stacked teams over the years that haven't been able to accomplish that.
When you take the good with the bad, and consider all the other coaches we've had through the years here, and the success level overall of coaches around the league, AV should definitely be considered an elite coach. That doesn't mean he's without faults, and player management is one of them for sure. Still his systems are great, and he does get a lot out of his players. There are better coaches, but there are a lot of worse ones out there, and given that there's a much better chance that whoever eventually replaces AV is likely not going to have the same level of success he's had here. And given what we've seen from this fan base and the many coaches we've had over the years, I can guarantee that once the initial shine of the new coach is gone, there will be plenty of hatred towards whoever is the next coach in Vancouver.
For the millionth time, if he can't play the right side with aplomb - ie, he likes it and he's comfortable there, there is ZERO point in making a trade for him.
Cowen, Phillips, Methot, Wiercioch - all left handed, all basically locked into playing in Ottawa for the foreseeable future. It's easy to say we 'need' a guy like Ballard, but when reality sets in we need a right handed version of Ballard.
Ballard is a clear upgrade over both Phillips and Wiercioch. He's also capable of playing the right side when Cowen gets back from injury. Since we're lacking a #4 d-man to slot in next to Cowen next season, Ballard would be a great Gonchar replacement. (Don't forget, Gonchar is also a LHD playing the right side, and was Cowen's main partner last year).
While a RHD with Ballard's exact skillset would be ideal for this team going forward, there doesn't appear to be one of those available in UFA next season or as cheaply as Ballard in trade. As it stands, and unless Murray can pull off some kind of amazing trade, Ballard is one of the best options for this team for the next 2 years.
So I've noticed this thread is becoming less about Ballard, and more about how awful Vigneault is.
How common is this opinion among the Canucks fanbase?
Too common. Sadly Vancouver is a city of scapegoat seekers and bandwagon fans; we love you only if you're winning mentality. The city has doen this for years, Luongo and Naslund come to mind. The fans are force fed garbage from primarily one media source and most of that falls into the 'speculative/opinions' categories and spit out as gospel.
Alain Vigneault is the villain; Ballard is the victim. It's always black and white in Vancouver with no room in the middle for argument sake. So rather than fans looking at Ballard's overall lack of contribution on a consistent basis or being able to adapt, it has to be the system AV created which is at fault.
Worse is the notion that gets trumped up in every thread that Vigneault would rather play favorites over building a Stanley Cup champ.
Ballard is a clear upgrade over both Phillips and Wiercioch. He's also capable of playing the right side when Cowen gets back from injury. Since we're lacking a #4 d-man to slot in next to Cowen next season, Ballard would be a great Gonchar replacement. (Don't forget, Gonchar is also a LHD playing the right side, and was Cowen's main partner last year).
While a RHD with Ballard's exact skillset would be ideal for this team going forward, there doesn't appear to be one of those available in UFA next season or as cheaply as Ballard in trade. As it stands, and unless Murray can pull off some kind of amazing trade, Ballard is one of the best options for this team for the next 2 years.
I'd much rather wait and see if we can acquire an actual right handed D-man. Gonchar has played the right side for a decade and a half, Ballard doesn't appear adept at it.
Too common. Sadly Vancouver is a city of scapegoat seekers and bandwagon fans; we love you only if you're winning mentality. The city has doen this for years, Luongo and Naslund come to mind. The fans are force fed garbage from primarily one media source and most of that falls into the 'speculative/opinions' categories and spit out as gospel.
Alain Vigneault is the villain; Ballard is the victim. It's always black and white in Vancouver with no room in the middle for argument sake. So rather than fans looking at Ballard's overall lack of contribution on a consistent basis or being able to adapt, it has to be the system AV created which is at fault.
Worse is the notion that gets trumped up in every thread that Vigneault would rather play favorites over building a Stanley Cup champ.
In defense of some of the Vee haters, I haven't liked him since he was hired. I don't like his system, and I don't like his attitude towards certain players, where it seems incredibly black and white as well.
I don't think Ballard earned a spot on this roster his first year. He was awful. He was also injured, and learning a system that no one has called simple. Is that not also a factor in his play though? Yes, it's his job to learn it, but look at past defenders who didn't fit the mold...we're not calling for Bieksa or Edler to be moved anymore because they adjusted their game. Last year, and now this year, Ballard has, and he's now a scratched player, while Garrison is off to a slow start, but seems to get the benefit of the doubt.
I don't put the blame entirely on Vee for Ballard not getting a second chance, but at the same time, he hasn't exactly rewarded Ballards play, even in the face of other D men off to bad starts
I'd much rather wait and see if we can acquire an actual right handed D-man. Gonchar has played the right side for a decade and a half, Ballard doesn't appear adept at it.
you're right, Ballard, at least in the Canucks defensive system, has not been able to adjust to the right side well. It's a difficult system for a left handed dman to adapt to playing the right side. The only one who really has was Ehrhoff, and after a difficult start Rome seemed to have adapted to playing equally well on both sides (as "well" as Rome could play). Most others haven't been able to adjust, that includes both Edler and Garrison this year as well, so far at least.
Ballard has played his best hockey on the left side next to Tanev. And if Edler could have easily adapted next to Garrison this season, that tandem would probably still be together right now. The problem is that there's a lack of chemistry overall because the two stable pairings we had (Hamhuis-Bieksa and Ballard-Tanev) have been mixed up thanks to Edler and Garrison not working out well together as a pairing - two natural left handed, left side dmen. So we've been seeing for many games now a mixed up defense with no chemistry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn
In defense of some of the Vee haters, I haven't liked him since he was hired. I don't like his system, and I don't like his attitude towards certain players, where it seems incredibly black and white as well.
I don't think Ballard earned a spot on this roster his first year. He was awful. He was also injured, and learning a system that no one has called simple. Is that not also a factor in his play though? Yes, it's his job to learn it, but look at past defenders who didn't fit the mold...we're not calling for Bieksa or Edler to be moved anymore because they adjusted their game. Last year, and now this year, Ballard has, and he's now a scratched player, while Garrison is off to a slow start, but seems to get the benefit of the doubt.
I don't put the blame entirely on Vee for Ballard not getting a second chance, but at the same time, he hasn't exactly rewarded Ballards play, even in the face of other D men off to bad starts
You don't like AV's system. What do you base that on?
Personally, I don't care what system any coach uses. I'll judge it on results. And given the results, it's hard to argue against his system. This is still a top end team, and have been at or near the top of almost every team category through the past few regular seasons under AV. The team has also gone far in the playoffs under that same system.
As far as how he deals with players, yes I don't think he handles young players well, and I don't think he's all that good at overall player management. However, it should be noted that the entire Canucks core basically (outside Luongo and Hamhuis) developed under AV. And again, given the results you have to give some credit here to AV. He's been the head coach of this team from not making the playoffs in one season to back to back Presidents' trophy and a game 7 finals appearance. If you credit the players entirely for that, you should consider who these players have developed under. That includes both our Hart/Lindsay winners, our Selke winner, our #1 dman and the goalie who's made a franchise level goalie expendable. They have all developed under AV (along with several others), while AV has been criticized during each of their developments as to how he was handling them (ie. not giving the Sedins enough icetime, using Kesler on the 3rd/4th lines and not giving him a chance when he was young to play a bigger role, not giving enough starts to Schneider, etc).
I'd say they've all turned out pretty well (along with Burrows, Hansen, Raymond, Bieksa, etc - on almost all of them fans have commented on how AV was not using them right).
You may hate the system and hate the man, but it's hard to hate those results.
So I've noticed this thread is becoming less about Ballard, and more about how awful Vigneault is.
How common is this opinion among the Canucks fanbase?
Pretty much, guy destroyed Ballard career and trade value, once he starts playing well and gets his career on the upswing, he throws him back in the doghouse and crushes Ballards momentum.
He endless game of favorites has gotten old, I have never really been a huge fan of AV.
