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Sakic+Forsberg vs. Crosby+Malkin

View Poll Results: Which combo is better (prime on prime)?
Sakic + Forsberg 135 52.33%
Crosby + Malkin 116 44.96%
both are equal 7 2.71%
Voters: 258. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-07-2013, 03:54 AM
  #151
daver
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, playing in the late 90's Malkin and Crosby won't be the two best players either.

Jagr and Hasek would be comfortably ahead of them. Lemieux would be when playing. Then there are the likes of Selanne, Bure, Kariya, Forsberg, Sakic, Lindros, etc outscoring them or travelling right behind.

Now, i have thought about this some more and i have to admit. Malkin and Crosby are off for a better start and will likely pull ahead (barring injuries) after some time. But lets not act like they would be #1 and #2 if they played the same years as Sakic/Forsberg.
Crosby's one dominant full season away from being in Jagr's area code offensively if he isn't there already.

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02-07-2013, 08:40 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Crosby's one dominant full season away from being in Jagr's area code offensively if he isn't there already.
Which still is steps away from #s 1 and 2 (Gretzky and Lemieux). Very large steps.

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02-07-2013, 11:12 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Crosby's one dominant full season away from being in Jagr's area code offensively if he isn't there already.
No he is not.

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02-07-2013, 11:18 AM
  #154
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i really wonder results of the poll
probably Joe and Foppa are leading 'cause Sid is one of the most hated superstars ever? And oppositely Joe and Foppa have been very respected.

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02-07-2013, 11:36 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
No he is not.
Crosby has what..? The 4th best PPG of all time despite playing in a defensive minded era and playing with borderline top 6 wingers..?

He's on the same offensive level if not higher than anybody that ever stepped into this league not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr.

Welcome to the real world.

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02-07-2013, 11:43 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Crosby has what..? The 4th best PPG of all time despite playing in a defensive minded era and playing with borderline top 6 wingers.

He's on the same offensive level if not higher than anybody that ever stepped into this league not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr.

Welcome to the real world.
Crosby is capable of entering the same realm as Jagr. Altough he has not done it yet. He has shown that for stretch of time he can be on the same level, only thing missing is consistency.

Crosby has career PPG of 1.4 which includes 444 games.

Jagr had a stretch of 495 games with PPG of 1.54 in a lower scoring era.

Leaving out Crosby's rookie season he is 1.42 PPG. Still a fair bit behind Jagr's best.

Now if Crosby can put out FULL season with the same kind of PPG i will consider him offensively in the same category as Jagr. But one Art Ross and few half season's does not cut it for me.

It is so cold out here in the real world.

BTW, you forgot Howe.


Last edited by TAnnala: 02-07-2013 at 12:13 PM.
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02-07-2013, 01:18 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by WornWithPride View Post
Which still is steps away from #s 1 and 2 (Gretzky and Lemieux). Very large steps.
What's your point?

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02-07-2013, 01:19 PM
  #158
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Im not the biggest Crosby lover. But come on, the guy has probably done the most with the least out of anyone I can think of.

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02-07-2013, 01:29 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Crosby is capable of entering the same realm as Jagr. Altough he has not done it yet. He has shown that for stretch of time he can be on the same level, only thing missing is consistency.

Crosby has career PPG of 1.4 which includes 444 games.

Jagr had a stretch of 495 games with PPG of 1.54 in a lower scoring era.

Leaving out Crosby's rookie season he is 1.42 PPG. Still a fair bit behind Jagr's best.

Now if Crosby can put out FULL season with the same kind of PPG i will consider him offensively in the same category as Jagr. But one Art Ross and few half season's does not cut it for me.

It is so cold out here in the real world.

BTW, you forgot Howe.
Seems like a bit of cherry pick. Let's compare apples to apples. Crosby had a better first five years and save for injuries, IMO, could have put up some dominant numbers the last two years.

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02-07-2013, 02:23 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Seems like a bit of cherry pick. Let's compare apples to apples. Crosby had a better first five years and save for injuries, IMO, could have put up some dominant numbers the last two years.
Players develop in different ways. Crosby was better 18 year old player than Jagr. He also had much different role to play.

Crosby is now 25-26 maybe we can start to compare these guys how they performed in that age? Or maybe we just wait for a bit and see what Crosby can put together.

At this point he falls short in comparison with Jagr. Actually he falls short in every category imaginable. If he is going to surpass Jagr he needs to step it up, a lot.

Even if Crosby would have played the entire season when he played the famous 41 games he would not have as good offensive season as Jagr at his best. Even with the same PPG.

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02-07-2013, 07:39 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Even if Crosby would have played the entire season when he played the famous 41 games he would not have as good offensive season as Jagr at his best. Even with the same PPG.
would be about the same 64 goal, 132 points with the quality of player on is line ? On a year with only one player over 100 points.


Not far from the best season of Jagr, 98-99, with 44 goal 127 and with only 2 player over 100 points (selanne/kariya).

Goal by games:
98-99: 5.26
2010-2011: 5.46

3.6% more goal by games, that give Jagr about 133 points for 82 with rough calculation, but so much more goals by Crosby.

Would say about equals, maybe little edge to Crosby in actual goal created.

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02-07-2013, 10:11 PM
  #162
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The thing about Jagr is that he had an unusually long and late prime for a star forward. Most forwards peak in points at 25-28, about 2 years earlier for goalscorers (think brett hull, ovechkin, etc.).

Jagr was contending for an art ross (and hart) when he was 33-34 in 05-06, losing to Joe Thornton (and Thornton played 84 games rather than 82 because of the mid-season trade).


I mean, Sid's certainly well on his way, but he needs to a) put up full seasons at top point-scoring pace, and b) do that 4-5 more seasons.


For every Sakic, Selanne, Jagr, etc. (long point-scoring prime superstars) there's like 5 Bures, Brett Hulls, Gretzkys, Yzermans, etc. (superstars who had a noticeable drop off in their late 20s in terms of goal/point scoring).


Jagr's pretty easily a top 10 forward offensively all time, so saying that Sid hasn't proven himself to be as good as Jagr (yet) is not really a slight to him at all.

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02-07-2013, 10:18 PM
  #163
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your right, but aged success id more common now that it was in the 80/90 I think..

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...&viewName=bios

Maybe the trend will continue. But yeah it is sure, nobody knows if Crosby will win 5 art ross in is career nor even play 5 full seasons until the end.

We can only talk about what it did, and it did something from it start as Jagr imo. Will see.

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02-07-2013, 11:06 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
The thing about Jagr is that he had an unusually long and late prime for a star forward. Most forwards peak in points at 25-28, about 2 years earlier for goalscorers (think brett hull, ovechkin, etc.).

Jagr was contending for an art ross (and hart) when he was 33-34 in 05-06, losing to Joe Thornton (and Thornton played 84 games rather than 82 because of the mid-season trade).


I mean, Sid's certainly well on his way, but he needs to a) put up full seasons at top point-scoring pace, and b) do that 4-5 more seasons.


For every Sakic, Selanne, Jagr, etc. (long point-scoring prime superstars) there's like 5 Bures, Brett Hulls, Gretzkys, Yzermans, etc. (superstars who had a noticeable drop off in their late 20s in terms of goal/point scoring).


Jagr's pretty easily a top 10 forward offensively all time, so saying that Sid hasn't proven himself to be as good as Jagr (yet) is not really a slight to him at all.
Thornton only played 81 games, not 84.

I don't think its fair to say Gretzky was a drop. Yes, he "dropped off", but he still won the Art Ross at 34 and lead the league in assists at 37.

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02-07-2013, 11:37 PM
  #165
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Bleh my bad, what I basically mean is he gained 2 games from the trade.


The gretz dropoff is still noticeable, but if you please, replace his name with the likes of Kariya, Kurri, Lindros, etc. Or we can go into "just" stars like Naslund, Elias, Heatley, etc.

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02-07-2013, 11:38 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Thornton only played 81 games, not 84.

I don't think its fair to say Gretzky was a drop. Yes, he "dropped off", but he still won the Art Ross at 34 and lead the league in assists at 37.
Still in absolute total, Gretzky had one or the biggest drop in point production ever, from is peak to the end.

Over 115 points

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02-08-2013, 02:18 AM
  #167
TAnnala
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would be about the same 64 goal, 132 points with the quality of player on is line ? On a year with only one player over 100 points.


Not far from the best season of Jagr, 98-99, with 44 goal 127 and with only 2 player over 100 points (selanne/kariya).

Goal by games:
98-99: 5.26
2010-2011: 5.46

3.6% more goal by games, that give Jagr about 133 points for 82 with rough calculation, but so much more goals by Crosby.

Would say about equals, maybe little edge to Crosby in actual goal created.
Hockey-Reference gives Jagr's best season adjusted 147 points and Crosby with the same PPG 142 points. Granted he would have had significantly more goals. But i would go and argue that player of Jagr's caliber produces assists that are just as important as goals.

So while they would be extremely close IF Crosby would have played the best season he was on pace to he never did it.

So in a wonderland were we give Crosby benefit of a doubt he still falls 5 point short on Jagr. How is that better than Mario and Gretzky?

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02-08-2013, 07:06 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Hockey-Reference gives Jagr's best season adjusted 147 points and Crosby with the same PPG 142 points. Granted he would have had significantly more goals. But i would go and argue that player of Jagr's caliber produces assists that are just as important as goals.

So while they would be extremely close IF Crosby would have played the best season he was on pace to he never did it.

So in a wonderland were we give Crosby benefit of a doubt he still falls 5 point short on Jagr. How is that better than Mario and Gretzky?
Never said anything about Mario and Gretzky although he could be on his way to being the best player (at least, best forward) since them especially when you factor in his all around game. Hopefully he can stay healthy enough for a few years to eliminate the "if" factor.

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02-08-2013, 07:31 AM
  #169
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Never said anything about Mario and Gretzky although he could be on his way to being the best player (at least, best forward) since them especially when you factor in his all around game. Hopefully he can stay healthy enough for a few years to eliminate the "if" factor.
I was not referring to you. But at the top of this page there is a claim made that he is on level or better with them.

I agree, as said before, that Crosby has the tools to get on Jagr level and maybe even above. But he is not there yet.

A span of 41 games does not equal 500 games.

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02-08-2013, 07:58 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Hockey-Reference gives Jagr's best season adjusted 147 points and Crosby with the same PPG 142 points. Granted he would have had significantly more goals. But i would go and argue that player of Jagr's caliber produces assists that are just as important as goals.
I will argue you that not, give me Jagr with 147 adjusted goal with no assist

Not saying big difference, but 20-23 more goals can make up for 4-5 less points to me. Actual goal created should be around the same.

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02-08-2013, 08:40 AM
  #171
TAnnala
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I will argue you that not, give me Jagr with 147 adjusted goal with no assist

Not saying big difference, but 20-23 more goals can make up for 4-5 less points to me. Actual goal created should be around the same.
Yeah, i went a bit overboard there. Crosby would have gotten about 20 more goals with his pace lasting to the end of season. So they would have been very close to each other in terms of offensive production.

So, Crosby has shown that he is cabable of producing at Jagr-like level for about half-season.

All he has to do is keep the production for about 400 games and i would call him equal.

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02-08-2013, 08:59 AM
  #172
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If we're going by "half season" PPG Crosby's not blowing away Jagr either:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1016953


# Player Year Gms G A Pts PPG
1 Lemieux 1996 41 45 64 109 2.66
2 Jagr 1996 42 36 51 87 2.07
3 Francis 1996 41 20 57 77 1.88
4 Lemieux 1997 41 31 46 77 1.88
5 Gretzky 1994 46 22 64 86 1.87
6 Jagr 2001 45 33 51 84 1.87
7 Crosby 2007 42 23 53 76 1.81
8 Jagr 2000 41 33 40 73 1.78
9 Lemieux 2001 43 35 41 76 1.77
10 Fedorov 1994 42 32 42 74 1.76
11 Lindros 1997 43 29 44 73 1.70
12 Lemieux 2003 43 20 53 73 1.70
13 Ovechkin 2010 52 42 46 88 1.69
14 Thornton 2006 44 17 57 74 1.68
15 Selanne 1999 41 31 37 68 1.66
16 Bure 1994 43 43 28 71 1.65
17 Forsberg 2003 45 20 54 74 1.64
18 Jagr 1997 44 41 31 72 1.64
19 Jagr 1999 52 27 58 85 1.63
20 Lindros 1995 42 28 40 68 1.62
21 Lindros 1996 47 36 40 76 1.62
22 Crosby 2011 41 32 34 66 1.61


In fact Crosby's half season in 2007 had better PPG, it's just that he couldn't keep up that pace for a whole season. Whereas in 2011 he got injured so we don't know what would've happened.

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02-08-2013, 09:03 AM
  #173
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Subject:
Sakic + Forsberg
Crosby + Malkin

Discussion:
Moaar Jageeer

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02-08-2013, 09:18 AM
  #174
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by LiveeviL View Post
Subject:
Sakic + Forsberg
Crosby + Malkin

Discussion:
Moaar Jageeer
It has something to do with the fact that Crosby's offensive production gets way overrated and people get annoyed.

Someone makes a statement that Crosby is as good if not better offensively than Gretzky/Lemieux it is no wonder that it sidetracks conversation.

That said, you are right. This discussion is not about Jagr.

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