I'm well aware of Joe's work, although every bio does seem to ahve a bit of a cheerleader aspect to them.
The problem is that while he might have been an NHL caliber Dman, perhaps somewhere in the top 30 of 30 guys playing but definitely near the bottom, since he was never the best Dman in the AHL.
He has a 3,3,3,7,7,9th best Dman in the NHL in his 9 year NHL career which was basically a Canadian only league and might translate, very roughly, to a 6,6,6,14,14,18 in a post 92 NHL.
Of course that's a very rough estimate but to me that hardly sounds like a guy close to the top 230 of all time or worthy of going around 200 in the ATD.
It might if he had a superb playoff resume or was the best Dman in the AHL for a couple of seasons or more but he doesn't
Um, he was a 2nd team all star in 1990, he was 2nd in save% in 1996. Are you really going to tell me a typical hall of good player like trevor linden or wendel clarke have more impressive accomplishments. A forward can finish 17th in scoring and thats considered very good, a goalie can finish top 3 in save% twice and he doesnt qualify for hall of good?
Puppa only has 4 seasons total where he played in more than 50% of his teams games. Even if he had a Tim Thomas type 4 seasons (which he clearly does not) not sure that it bumps him into the HOVG.
Goalies of course are the hardest to judge but would Puppa seriously even break into the top 100 goalies of all time?
I'm well aware of Joe's work, although every bio does seem to ahve a bit of a cheerleader aspect to them.
The problem is that while he might have been an NHL caliber Dman, perhaps somewhere in the top 30 of 30 guys playing but definitely near the bottom, since he was never the best Dman in the AHL.
He has a 3,3,3,7,7,9th best Dman in the NHL in his 9 year NHL career which was basically a Canadian only league and might translate, very roughly, to a 6,6,6,14,14,18 in a post 92 NHL.
Of course that's a very rough estimate but to me that hardly sounds like a guy close to the top 230 of all time or worthy of going around 200 in the ATD.
It might if he had a superb playoff resume or was the best Dman in the AHL for a couple of seasons or more but he doesn't
Off the top of my head, you're adding Suchy (who knows how he adjusts to NHL play), Pospisil (prime of his career I believe), Fetisov (beginning of his career coincides with White's tail end), Kasatanov (same as Fetisov), Ragulin (end of his career, probably not much of a factor), Vasiliev (beast), Lutchenko (pretty sure he was around his prime in this area).
Europe did have a lot defensive talent, but I think expecting ALL of these guys to pass White during his three year peak is asking a lot.
Somewhere in between his actual record and what you posted I think is fair.
Puppa only has 4 seasons total where he played in more than 50% of his teams games. Even if he had a Tim Thomas type 4 seasons (which he clearly does not) not sure that it bumps him into the HOVG.
Goalies of course are the hardest to judge but would Puppa seriously even break into the top 100 goalies of all time?
I don't think he would off the top of my head.
I get that, but the problem is puppa reached higher peaks in his career than many forwards that would fit the criteria.
Wendel Clarke and Trevor Linden are two guys that would probably break into your definition of hall of very good or hall of good. Name one season where either forward was top 15? Name one, you cant.
Puppa was legitmately either the 2nd or 3rd best goalie on 2 occasions.
Tony Espsosito struggles to crack the top 100 lists on this forum. Take a look at his hart and all star voting, its vastly superior to any forward that is ranked 75-120 on all time lists.
I'd say both are HOVG, Wesley more towards the middle, Kaberle a bit lower-end (career hasn't been long enough at this point to be higher). Kaberle might be more HOG. Wesley is one of those steady defensive presences along the lines of Adam Foote and Ulf Samuelsson who I discussed above, but I don't think he ranks quite as highly as either of them (they are top-end HOVG defensemen to me though, so that puts Wesley squarely in the HOVG).
On that topic... is pretty much EVERY player that gets to 1000 games at least a Hall of Good Player? or maybe 1200 games? You play THAT long in the NHL you have to be pretty special, even if you are say a defensive defenceman.
Um, he was a 2nd team all star in 1990, he was 2nd in save% in 1996. Are you really going to tell me a typical hall of good player like trevor linden or wendel clarke have more impressive accomplishments. A forward can finish 17th in scoring and thats considered very good, a goalie can finish top 3 in save% twice and he doesnt qualify for hall of good?
Absolutely I think Linden and Clark were better. Goalies are notoriously up and down, and you can't just judge their careers by flashes. This is how Vernon gets some love for the HHOF despite being barely better than average for most of his career. In terms of what total value they brought to the table in their careers, Linden and Clark are miles and miles ahead of Puppa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123
I'd venture to guess that well over 50% of a all Dman minutes played in the 06 era are represented in the ATD's top 600 (HOF and HOVG) which is highly improbable and maybe even farcical but that's a really strong word don't you think?.
I don't know if that number is accurate, but if it is, considering that's a pretty long period of time and 600 players is a lot, and only 24 players could even be regulars in that time, I don't think it would bother me at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123
He has a 3,3,3,7,7,9th best Dman in the NHL in his 9 year NHL career which was basically a Canadian only league
...but you don't think those non-Canadians were any good anyway, so....
Yeah I'm not sure what I was thinking there, for some reason I didn't think he'd been around that long. It may have been because I was mentally comparing him to Glen Wesley (since they got named in the same post) and Wesley played almost 1500 games (over 1700 if playoffs are included).
Absolutely I think Linden and Clark were better. Goalies are notoriously up and down, and you can't just judge their careers by flashes. This is how Vernon gets some love for the HHOF despite being barely better than average for most of his career. In terms of what total value they brought to the table in their careers, Linden and Clark are miles and miles ahead of Puppa.
I don't know if that number is accurate, but if it is, considering that's a pretty long period of time and 600 players is a lot, and only 24 players could even be regulars in that time, I don't think it would bother me at all.
...but you don't think those non-Canadians were any good anyway, so....
yeah based on accomplishing what? Putting up 60 point seasons in the run n gun era, that impresses u?
Off the top of my head, you're adding Suchy (who knows how he adjusts to NHL play), Pospisil (prime of his career I believe), Fetisov (beginning of his career coincides with White's tail end), Kasatanov (same as Fetisov), Ragulin (end of his career, probably not much of a factor), Vasiliev (beast), Lutchenko (pretty sure he was around his prime in this area).
Europe did have a lot defensive talent, but I think expecting ALL of these guys to pass White during his three year peak is asking a lot.
Somewhere in between his actual record and what you posted I think is fair.
Actually I'm doing a rough comp to a Canadian post 92ish who has to contend with all the guys from the European and US feeder systems that didn't exist then.
I'm not exactly sure how to rate the non NHL guys listed above, although they were thought of quite highly in the top 60 Dman project.
I get that, but the problem is puppa reached higher peaks in his career than many forwards that would fit the criteria.
Wendel Clarke and Trevor Linden are two guys that would probably break into your definition of hall of very good or hall of good. Name one season where either forward was top 15? Name one, you cant.
Puppa was legitmately either the 2nd or 3rd best goalie on 2 occasions.
Tony Espsosito struggles to crack the top 100 lists on this forum. Take a look at his hart and all star voting, its vastly superior to any forward that is ranked 75-120 on all time lists.
Okay let's say that Puppa was actually the 2nd or 3rd best goalies for 2 seasons, isn't it also alot easier for a goalie to have a fluke year and do that than say a forward who can't fluke his way into an extra 30 or 40 points, while teams situations and coaching can have that large of an affect on a goalies seasons.
Goalies are also the hardest to judge for theses reasons as well, they are very highly dependent on team play and coaching styles.
On that topic... is pretty much EVERY player that gets to 1000 games at least a Hall of Good Player? or maybe 1200 games? You play THAT long in the NHL you have to be pretty special, even if you are say a defensive defenceman.
That's an interesting question. How would you rate goonish players who appeared in 1,000+ games (Domi, Brashear, Berube)? They were very good at what they did, but not sure if the "Hall of Good" really has room for someone like Tie Domi.
Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 03-26-2012 at 10:41 PM.
Okay let's say that Puppa was actually the 2nd or 3rd best goalies for 2 seasons, isn't it also alot easier for a goalie to have a fluke year and do that than say a forward who can't fluke his way into an extra 30 or 40 points, while teams situations and coaching can have that large of an affect on a goalies seasons.
Goalies are also the hardest to judge for theses reasons as well, they are very highly dependent on team play and coaching styles.
zhamnov, jacques richard, bertuzzi lead the league in ppg, bob macmillan, etc. There have beenn alot of one hit wonder forwards. Yashin of all people almost won the hart once. Straka and Lang have been top 5 in ppg, the 1940's had many 1 hit wonder forwards.
zhamnov, jacques richard, bertuzzi lead the league in ppg, bob macmillan, etc. There have beenn alot of one hit wonder forwards. Yashin of all people almost won the hart once. Straka and Lang have been top 5 in ppg, the 1940's had many 1 hit wonder forwards.
well that settles it right there. puppa is the goalie equivalent of a forward that had two outstanding seasons and nothing else that even surpasses above-average. would that forward be in the hall of good, or in the same echelon as longtime leaders and good but sub-elite guys like wendel and trevor?
seems like we need a clark/linden vs. bertuzzi poll (i certainly know who i'd pick). or, to make a comparison that doesn't pit two canadian folk heroes against a p.o.s. that everyone hates, kevin dineen vs. glen murray. is puppa's blip really good enough even for the hall of good?
would you put glen murray in the hall of good for two years out of a solid but unspectacular fifteen where everything went his way? or is he really better suited to the hall of above-average? because that's generally where i see puppa. a guy with a fuller career and comparable flashes of brilliance like kirk mclean is probably my prototype for a hall of good goalie.
On that topic... is pretty much EVERY player that gets to 1000 games at least a Hall of Good Player? or maybe 1200 games? You play THAT long in the NHL you have to be pretty special, even if you are say a defensive defenceman.
I wouldn’t say every single player, no. And I wouldn’t even make the distinction between offense and defense. For defenseman for example, defense is even more important than offense. I’d be more concerned with overall value as a player. A guy like Marc Bergevin played 1100 games as a #5-7 defenseman, he would not be Hall of Good. Obviously any “goon” to reach 1000 games is a debatable choice too. Tie Domi, IMO, is considerably better than Brashear, who is considerably better than Berube, but even Domi wouldn’t make my HOG. He’s more of a “1800th pick in the ATD” kind of guy.
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Originally Posted by ushvinder
yeah based on accomplishing what? Putting up 60 point seasons in the run n gun era, that impresses u?
Being above average players for the better part of 1000 games for Linden, and for the better part of 800 games (over 14 years) for Clark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123
Okay let's say that Puppa was actually the 2nd or 3rd best goalies for 2 seasons, isn't it also alot easier for a goalie to have a fluke year and do that than say a forward who can't fluke his way into an extra 30 or 40 points, while teams situations and coaching can have that large of an affect on a goalies seasons.
Yes, absolutely it is easier. Immensely easier. Look at the footnotes in history who have been 1st/2nd team all-stars at goalies due to the streaky nature of the position. You just don’t get that on defense or the wings.
Quote:
Goalies are also the hardest to judge for theses reasons as well, they are very highly dependent on team play and coaching styles.
Indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder
zhamnov, jacques richard, bertuzzi lead the league in ppg, bob macmillan, etc. There have beenn alot of one hit wonder forwards. Yashin of all people almost won the hart once. Straka and Lang have been top 5 in ppg, the 1940's had many 1 hit wonder forwards.
Only Richard is an actual blip. Zhamnov was a consistent 60 point center throughout the DPE. The lockout year was an aberration and he probably wouldn’t have continued it for another 36 games. Bertuzzi has been a solid, productive player his whole career and had three seasons as a big star, that’s not that uncommon. MacMillan was an exceptional all-around player who had five other seasons with 58-71 points. Yashin, FFS, was one of the league’s top centers for nearly a decade even if his hart candidate season was not repeatable. Straka = Jagr. Lang, see Zhamnov, lesser version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov
well that settles it right there. puppa is the goalie equivalent of a forward that had two outstanding seasons and nothing else that even surpasses above-average. would that forward be in the hall of good, or in the same echelon as longtime leaders and good but sub-elite guys like wendel and trevor?
seems like we need a clark/linden vs. bertuzzi poll (i certainly know who i'd pick). or, to make a comparison that doesn't pit two canadian folk heroes against a p.o.s. that everyone hates, kevin dineen vs. glen murray. is puppa's blip really good enough even for the hall of good?
would you put glen murray in the hall of good for two years out of a solid but unspectacular fifteen where everything went his way? or is he really better suited to the hall of above-average? because that's generally where i see puppa. a guy with a fuller career and comparable flashes of brilliance like kirk mclean is probably my prototype for a hall of good goalie.
You are right. All anyone has to do to verify this is start ranking goalies from history and look how far down you need to go before you hit Puppa. How far down an all-time players list is that?
