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Nazem Kadri Vs Jakub Voracek

View Poll Results: Who would you rather add to your teams roster? Who's the better player?
Jakub Voracek 110 56.12%
Nazem Kadri 86 43.88%
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-02-2014, 07:05 PM
  #126
33
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
The Leafs are better than the canucks, budbud.
Congratulations you're 3 points ahead of the Canucks while the Canucks have a game in hand. It seems like you've been waiting 10 years to use this comment. The Leafs haven't been better than the Canucks in a full season in 10 years, nor have they beaten them once in that span. Lets wait an entire season before reaching such conclusions, also this isn't relevant to anything, do you actually think the Leafs are a better defensive team than Vancouver? Do you actually believe the Leafs have a better d-core than Vancouver?

Should I remind you of what happened when Vancouver and Toronto played earlier this year?

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02-02-2014, 07:33 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
The only problem is that they are not equal. The advantage Kadri gets from being a center is minimal.

Kadri had a faceoff percentage of 44 in 2012-2013, and he does not have a very good two-way game, so the question is would I rather have a winger who excels at all aspects of his position or a center although talented is actually not very good at the center position. So, that is why it does not matter that much that he is a center.

Giroux on the other hand is solid defensively and is current 5th in total faceoff wins this season, and his percentage is 52. That is where the C>W takes affect.
Any young C breaking into the league needs to work on his faceoffs and defensive zone responsibility. It's not very common for a center to come in and be able to go head to head against the league's best immediately. He's 14 months younger than Voracek and has had substantial less time in the NHL to develop, with this only really being his sophmore year.

His defensive game needs work yes, but it's being underrated in this thread while Voracek's is being overrated. There is a gap, but not the AINEC people are making it out to be.

Don't get me wrong, Voracek has quite the offensive toolbox but he had four straight years of being a consistent 50 point winger before ending up on Giroux's wing, a premier playmaker in the league. The tougher competition is much easier to face with a top ten C doing half the work. On the other hand Kadri is the offensive catalyst on his line, and he does the majority of the lifting when Lupul doesn't feel like it. Slightly outproducing Voracek with about a minute less of PPTOI/G.

Kadri still has development to come in the big leagues IMO, while playing the more important position. Most of the points you made in the other post can equally apply to Kadri. Still don't see a significant reason to pick Voracek.

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02-02-2014, 08:50 PM
  #128
Tpinheiro4
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Originally Posted by haayward View Post
Any young C breaking into the league needs to work on his faceoffs and defensive zone responsibility. It's not very common for a center to come in and be able to go head to head against the league's best immediately. He's 14 months younger than Voracek and has had substantial less time in the NHL to develop, with this only really being his sophmore year.

His defensive game needs work yes, but it's being underrated in this thread while Voracek's is being overrated. There is a gap, but not the AINEC people are making it out to be.

Don't get me wrong, Voracek has quite the offensive toolbox but he had four straight years of being a consistent 50 point winger before ending up on Giroux's wing, a premier playmaker in the league. The tougher competition is much easier to face with a top ten C doing half the work. On the other hand Kadri is the offensive catalyst on his line, and he does the majority of the lifting when Lupul doesn't feel like it. Slightly outproducing Voracek with about a minute less of PPTOI/G.

Kadri still has development to come in the big leagues IMO, while playing the more important position. Most of the points you made in the other post can equally apply to Kadri. Still don't see a significant reason to pick Voracek.
Your points are very valid. But, not all centers entering the league are every guaranteed to become good face off men. Using inexperience as an excuse for his faceoff's and defensive play is viable but, there is no certainty to it. Meaning he may never be able to fix his defensive and faceoff woes.

I never claimed Voracek, AINCE. I think he is the better player but, Kadri is close. Also, Berube's new system is a defense first system that stresses team D, which is similar to Boston's strategy. Kadri's line is an offensive oriented line. Based on their average opponents they are clearly a line that has only one goal, to score. Since the Flyers have such putrid defense it takes a totally team effort to keep the puck out of their net, so Voracek plays against far tougher opponents while in a defensively minded system. Although having Giroux is a huge plus for Voracek, I don't think that can be used to totally denounce his offensive play.

All that being said, both Kadri and even Voracek have tons of room to grow and I expect both of them too. From a Flyers fan perspective we have no need Kadri since we have 4 capable centers in our top 9 and Voracek and Simmonds are our only really solid wingers. So, they would mean a lot more to the team than Kadri would. But, I am sure that is the complete opposite for Toronto. All things considered I still think Voracek is a superior player at this moment, but it is close.

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Old
02-02-2014, 11:24 PM
  #129
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Haha I didn't expect this poll to take off like this, that being said I do think Voracek is a more valuable player, but Kadri is extremely close.

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02-03-2014, 12:02 AM
  #130
haayward
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Your points are very valid. But, not all centers entering the league are every guaranteed to become good face off men. Using inexperience as an excuse for his faceoff's and defensive play is viable but, there is no certainty to it. Meaning he may never be able to fix his defensive and faceoff woes.

I never claimed Voracek, AINCE. I think he is the better player but, Kadri is close. Also, Berube's new system is a defense first system that stresses team D, which is similar to Boston's strategy. Kadri's line is an offensive oriented line. Based on their average opponents they are clearly a line that has only one goal, to score. Since the Flyers have such putrid defense it takes a totally team effort to keep the puck out of their net, so Voracek plays against far tougher opponents while in a defensively minded system. Although having Giroux is a huge plus for Voracek, I don't think that can be used to totally denounce his offensive play.

All that being said, both Kadri and even Voracek have tons of room to grow and I expect both of them too. From a Flyers fan perspective we have no need Kadri since we have 4 capable centers in our top 9 and Voracek and Simmonds are our only really solid wingers. So, they would mean a lot more to the team than Kadri would. But, I am sure that is the complete opposite for Toronto. All things considered I still think Voracek is a superior player at this moment, but it is close.
Yeah, I think that might be the Leaf homer in me just assuming he'll improve in those aspects. But already I'm starting to see improvement in his defensive game this year, his defensive zone awareness and compete level are there, yet sometimes he still gets caught overcommitting or trying to make a fancy play instead of the simple one.

I didn't think you were, but several people do and then flee the thread before backing it up. Confusing as this poll is anything but a landslide in either direction.

Definitely not trying to downplay Voracek's offensive talents but Giroux is a special player, he makes it easier for anybody to play with him. I may have to disagree with you on Giroux's usage as a defensive unit though. While they do face tougher comp than Kadri's line it seems like Couturier is doing the heavy lifting.

Voracek is getting the second most offensive zone starts in Philly at 60.5% but only finishing there 52.9% of the time.

Kadri is getting the most offensive minutes of any Leaf forward, but in comparison around the league they aren't so easy due to the rarity of an offensive zone start in leafland. Starting 51% in the O zone and finishing there 52.4% of the time.

I'd still stick with Kadri for the Leafs, we're hard up for C's and don't have an abundance like you guys. I can see why you'd stick with Voracek though.

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Old
02-03-2014, 02:17 AM
  #131
Sergei Shirokov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bathcat View Post
I actually chuckled that zeke said this.

If someone was just getting into hockey and only read zeke's posts, the Leafs would be the 80s Oilers.


I got a pretty good laugh out of that one.

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02-03-2014, 02:20 AM
  #132
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Voracek.

They both have similar offensive upside but Voracek is years ahead defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bathcat View Post
I actually chuckled that zeke said this.

If someone was just getting into hockey and only read zeke's posts, the Leafs would be the 80s Oilers.
Loooooooooooooooooooooooool, I don't think I've seen such an accurate post in quite some time.

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Old
02-03-2014, 02:41 AM
  #133
Sergei Shirokov
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My pick was Voracek, Offensively its pretty close between the two, defensively its clear edge Voracek IMO.

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Jason Garrison is better than Cody Franson why again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
You missed the part of the argument where I carefully explained to you how Franson started the year as a 3rd pair guy and ended it as a #2/3 in the playoffs, and how and why we could expect that going forward....

.....and now, thanks to the numbers, it seems like I'm right.

thanks for bringing i up, because usually I don't like patting myself on the back.
There you go, difference is Franson throughout his career has been a bottom pair PP guy, who has streaks of play here & there where he plays decent enough defense to get himself in the top 4 (on a defense without alot of depth btw) for a limited amount of time, but always ends up back as a glorified PP specialist with easy minutes.

Garrison on the other hand has consistently been a top 4 guy since before coming to Vancouver, and in VAN with a pretty deep defense he has maintained his top 4 spot.

------------------

as for your Weber/Phaneuf comparison, if you actually watch both of them play, you see they are different players style-wise who have some different strengths & weaknesses. There are some comparable things in there games like size & physical skills, but aside from that they are very different.

Now the part that makes the comparison even worse is, despite clearly having different styles of play where Phaneuf is better in one area than another and same with Weber, Weber is still better than Phaneuf in every facet of the game.

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Old
02-03-2014, 02:48 AM
  #134
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Wait, what was this thread about again?

**** it, this is going nowhere. Closed.

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