I'm in favor of the owners because I hate the kind of power unions have gotten in modern society. Nothing personal with pro unionsts, I just hate extortion as a principle and would rather not have an economy built on it.
If any corporation tried to sell a product like the labor unions tried to "sell" their labor to corporations, they'd be sued to within an inch of their life.
Unions make up very little of the actual work force. When america was kicking ass and taking names unions made well over 50% of the products and had much more "power" when it comes to poltics and all that. Extortion by the unions? look up the founders of this country.. you'll see some great extortionists.
I've been both. Even though I think that line of thinking is irrelevant unless you had "employees" that were the actual product and the absolute 750 best in the world at what they did.
I'm familiar with the labor situation of the NHL going back to at least the corrupt Wirtz/Eagleson years.
I'm behind the players union in this lockout.
It is irrelevant. What's going on in the NHL has absolutely nothing to do with collective or individual labour law. Any real business that operates like the NHL does would be shut down real fast.
I'm in favor of the owners because I hate the kind of power unions have gotten in modern society. Nothing personal with pro unionsts, I just hate extortion as a principle and would rather not have an economy built on it.
If any corporation tried to sell a product like the labor unions tried to "sell" their labor to corporations, they'd be sued to within an inch of their life.
If you actually believe unionization is "extortion," nothing personal, but you're out of your mind.
If you actually believe unionization is "extortion," nothing personal, but you're out of your mind.
Is there really a need for unions with today's labor laws? I have the same protections and I am not in one.... Funny (not really) but all the union workers on my block have been unemployed on and off half a dozen times over the past 6 years while we private enterprise folk have had the same job...I mean honestly, aren't many of these townships broke because of teacher's and public service unions and their reluctance to pay their fair share?
Is there really a need for unions with today's labor laws? I have the same protections and I am not in one.... Funny (not really) but all the union workers on my block have been unemployed on and off half a dozen times over the past 6 years while we private enterprise folk have had the same job...
Yes. If you want to hear a personal story, let me know, and I'll PM you.
If we're just speaking in general terms, sure labor laws are a great thing. But court cases can take years to wind their way to justice. That's fairly cold comfort if you've lost your job, isn't it?
Unions are like governments; there are good, and there are bad, but getting rid of them altogether isn't going to make anything better. What is needed is for them to be run correctly.
The players get paid well,get the summer off . My husband lost his job of 20 yrs last year,11 months later he found one that paid 30,000 less than his previous job.We are living like millions of americans right now "underemployed".The players should just except it,and just fit in with the rest of the country.....take the cut and live with it.
Owner who supports the players. Revenue should be split equally amongst the teams and if they still can't make it work then the league should contract to stay viable.
The players get paid well,get the summer off . My husband lost his job of 20 yrs last year,11 months later he found one that paid 30,000 less than his previous job.We are living like millions of americans right now "underemployed".The players should just except it,and just fit in with the rest of the country.....take the cut and live with it.
No, they don't.
Or put it this way - if they do, they won't have an NHL job for very long.
I hope i am allowed to post here. The Bs have been my second favorite team since Mario left the Pens and Sids whining became their new voice. Also Cam Neely is my 4th favorite player after Mario, Coffey, and that gem Dougie Weight - who visited me as a kid in the hospital.
There should have been more options in the OP but i dont think my choice would have changed. Even though my choice wouldnt have changed, however, supporting the players should not be akin to supporting the PA.
I support the owners and here is why.
The Players bash the league for not negotiating through a season and using the lockout as a threat. The owners "lockout", or in real terms simply stopping the business until a new structure in labor is obtained, was the tool at the leagues disposal. The league didnt whine about the NHLPA using their tool to extend a CBA that was not working for the employers. The NHL also offered to negotiate during the last season of the CBA... their offer was declined.
People say the NHL should have negotiated through the season. If they did this they would be saying they were fine with 57% and the expired CBA... since they are choosing to continue under it. Fehr can turn around and say "if its so bad why are we still playing?" --see MLB playing through an expired deal. Also it gives Fehr and the PA enormous leverage come playoff time...again research Fehr MLB history.
Those that are saying the NHLs innitial proposal was rediculous are incorrect. 57% to labor seems far more rediculous than 57% to the owners who foot the bill for everything including the sticks the players use.
Make whole. This comes from the idea that the players feel they are entitled to a monetary guarantee. A monetary guarantee hasnt existed in NHL contract - outside of signing bonuses- since 05. Every contract under the old CBA is simply a value based share of the PA pie portion of HRR. That is all. The CBA even states that any SPc signed under it is to be held to the terms of the successor CBA upon the formers expiration. They were never entitled to anything and they know it.
I am not saying the players shouldnt fight for the same portion of revenues... i am however saying that statements to the media that the league is trying to swindle them make me lose sympathy for the players. It makes me say ...well you should lose that fight now that you inaccurately started slinging mud.
My position is that the PA is a farce. I have seen it under Goodenow, Saskin, Kelly and Fehr. I saw them remove Kelly from power, not even two years into his job where the PA and NHL were working together to proactively settle league issues and player issues. Kelly also set up the investigation that likely cost him his job. He hired FBI auditors to investigate the PA and its leaders. Soon Lindros was told to resign and await further investigation, others high officials were relieved of some duties while the investigation got more evidence. Then he was fired and the Investigators told their services werent needed.
The players fired their best advisor, their best leader, and a guy who would have got them the best offer a year ago so we would be playing hockey today. The guy also just happened to put away Eagleson no less. Perhaps it was the fact it was looking like a true partnership, perhaps it was the fact Bettman ended up looking so good and got respect ffrom players --even chelios and lidstrom --- when he accepted and invitation to a PA meeting in hostile territory and ended up answering every question and canceling other meetings to make sure every question and concern was addressed, perhaps it was Kellys less aggressive mentality, or it was Fehrs availaability - who we know was coaching Goodenow. Or perhaps it was to remove Kelly PERIOD... with the council not even knowing that firing Kelly was on the agenda until they heard the scoop on the news the friday night with the meeting scheduled for sunday. Then perhaps those players were rushed into a one day decision based on info given by the people who were under investigation who had been perhaps large beneficiary of a broken association.
I will say this... as much as i hate big mouths like Jonathon toewes i do believe the players are just stupid not greedy. They dont have many law degrees between them and probably not even many HS dips. I know that alot of players ARE STILL asking why Kelly was fired. STILL.
They arent the PA. That is why Kelly was fired. The more i watch interviews the more the nonesense gets spewed and the more i realize its like watching scientologists explain alien gods and lsd visions in religious ways. The uneducated are easily led.
Theyve led themselves to 450 M in lost wages for no real purpose. *clap clap*
who really benefits from all this? not the NHL. not the players present or future, this isnt the cap war that is being waged here. Should we make the league more viable by cutting 4 teams and 100 jobs and give up on growing the game in non-traditional markets? As a business you had to try but we could lay everyone off and say bye to the NBC national contract because there is no reason to show it in the south. there goes 4 gates and 200 million in NBC funds. pie getting smller.
Agents and the PA are who i think are the villains and no the players clearly arent the PA. ONE agent however did make sense when he said they should have negotiated last season basically stating - the league is certain to lock out players and i dont want my clients not playing. see what the issues are and get the deal done. close off the loopholes and decide on a fair split and avoid any losses. my client will be better off with 70% of 3B rather than a year of no pay and still accepting 60% of what falls to 2 or 1.5 or 0.
those 3rd and 4th liners should think long and hard about that 0 part. Young buds always coming up to take your job and you just willingly gave up a year because you didnt want to negotiate. *slow clap*
in closing the players are being misled... but i dont mind them fighting to maintain their eanings from last year, however they should keep their mouths shut that they are entitled to it when their expired deal specifically stated they werent. I have no problems with players fighting to keep loop holes open, to keep problem areas that benefit them open... but just dont say BS on tv that its good for the game because we know its not. Its good for you yes but its cheating and my 5 year old nephew even knows that. I dont condone cheating, loophole or not.
My opinion? no guarantees on revenues or salaries... non-starter in a cap system. 350 M into a make whole. take it or leave it. 50/50 split. 9 year contract limit, 5 percent variance. no hiding cap hits. 1 way contracts can not be dumped, and everyone earning above league avg gets a 1 way automatically.
the bombshell. ... players get a player clause on every contract over 3 years where they can opt to dissolve the contract and head to their respective free agency. This option comes up in the 3rd year of the contract and every year after. The player gets this right automatically. They have until the all star break to file that they exercise it. The team can then shop said player on the market.
Considering so much power goes into the hands of the player ... i would expect Managers to seriously consider long and hard signing any long term contracts. Because of cap implications this can not exist without the variance rule, and rules against hiding contracts, being accepted.
sign it and get the games rolling. players just got more power.
Last edited by oilinblood: 11-23-2012 at 12:58 AM.
I could support the owners, but for one thing. Bettman uses the lockout as his primary tool in negotiations. He's done it before, he'll do it again. Had the players issued unreasonable demand (as the owners did) then went on strike the day after the owners said no, I'd have no sympathy for them either.
Yes, the owners risk there own money, but it's not like hockey is a startup business, the risk is minimal. Games are the product, they are impossible without players. As the NFL's ludicrous attempt to use replacement officials demonstrates, replacement players wouldn't work. Anyone good enough to play in the NHL, now or in the future, knows they'd get hurt once the lockout ends.
Let the next CBA, if there is one, be for ten years, not five.
I am very disappointed in the people that support the owners in this. They wrote the last CBA. They completely dominated the NHLPA in the last round. Now they are whining about how they can't make money under that system. To paraphrase KPD, since when is it the responsibility of labor to make sure ownership turns a prophet? Answer: it is not and never has been. Players/workers show up and do their job. Owners need to make sound business decisions. THEY sign the long, expensive deals. THEY approve teams in Columbus and Miami. THEY let the league continue to pretend somebody will buy Phoenix while also approving the relocation of teams that would have been fine under a cap (Hartford, Minnesota, QC). The simple question here is who do you find to me more trustworthy, down to Earth, and more like you; Shawn Thornton or Jeremy Jacobs?
I am very disappointed in the people that support the owners in this. They wrote the last CBA. They completely dominated the NHLPA in the last round. Now they are whining about how they can't make money under that system. To paraphrase KPD, since when is it the responsibility of labor to make sure ownership turns a prophet? Answer: it is not and never has been. Players/workers show up and do their job. Owners need to make sound business decisions. THEY sign the long, expensive deals. THEY approve teams in Columbus and Miami. THEY let the league continue to pretend somebody will buy Phoenix while also approving the relocation of teams that would have been fine under a cap (Hartford, Minnesota, QC). The simple question here is who do you find to me more trustworthy, down to Earth, and more like you; Shawn Thornton or Jeremy Jacobs?
I would support the players if the players average salary was 250k and the average ticket price would be $35...
Reality is, players average salary is 2.5M and the average ticket is around $60...
A business has to make a profit or the business close down...
Somehow in the NHL 70% of the teams are not profitable, yet the average player that shows up to play once in a while as a guaranty 2.5M .
Yes i am very disappointed that business men invest in a sport that we all love knowing that 70% of them will not make a profit, while the greedy players make it impossible to the regular fan to attend this over priced game.
I would support the players if the players average salary was 250k and the average ticket price would be $35...
Reality is, players average salary is 2.5M and the average ticket is around $60...
A business has to make a profit or the business close down... Somehow in the NHL 70% of the teams are not profitable, yet the average player that shows up to play once in a while as a guaranty 2.5M .
Yes i am very disappointed that business men invest in a sport that we all love knowing that 70% of them will not make a profit, while the greedy players make it impossible to the regular fan to attend this over priced game.
1. I don't believe that 70% lose money. I don't even believe half that percentage. THEY wrote the last CBA and then circumvented it.
2. THEY offer and approve the deals, not the players. If you can't afford to pay those salaries, don't offer them.
3. This is Bettmen's fault. Columbus, Florida, Anaheim, etc do not deserve teams. Heck, he tried Atlanta which had failed in the 80s. The last successful expansion was Ottawa/TB. They should have stopped there. Bettmen et al got greedy and are now paying for it.
1. I don't believe that 70% lose money. I don't even believe half that percentage.
Your beliefs are irrelevant.
THEY wrote the last CBA and then circumvented it.
Yes in normal life its called a divorce.
2. THEY offer and approve the deals, not the players. If you can't afford to pay those salaries, don't offer them.
Right... the players trough the agents only accepts what the owners offer them.
3. This is Bettmen's fault. Columbus, Florida, Anaheim, etc do not deserve teams. Heck, he tried Atlanta which had failed in the 80s. The last successful expansion was Ottawa/TB. They should have stopped there. Bettmen et al got greedy and are now paying for it.
Employee/slightly more support for the players (don't think they're all being represented the same aka has the same beliefs as the majority). It's tough to support either side especially when your coworkers and boss are losing money directly because of the lockout.
__________________ "Forget about style; worry about results." - Bobby Orr
I'm an employee and side with the owners. They're the ones that are risking all their money and spending their own money. They deserve a fair slice of the revenues and players are asking for way too much. If the players want that much, let's see them try to make their own league and see how hard it is without the money to start.
Where's the option for a plague on both their houses and I just don't give a crap anymore. I hope the league goes down and the remaining owners and players start a new league without the ******* **** owner of the Bruins involved.
