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Game #19: KINGS @ ISLANDERS - 11/14/13 - Regulation Win! 3-2 Monarchs Victory!

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Old
11-15-2013, 11:12 AM
  #151
KingCanadain1976
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Our depth IS as good as I have been ranting for years.

What is truly great about this is that we have Shore Andy Andy Porky Zykov Kozun Sabourin Forbort Gravel and on down on the farm waiting. Our depth is scary good.
I have been under the same impression T G That is why I was hoping 4 rookies made it out of camp. The only one missing now is Andy Andy to me. We seriously need to lock up our scouting staff and coaches to long term contracts imo they are the reason we have become the team we are. I think the ahl coaching staff needs more regonition imo they are serverally under appreciated around here.

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11-15-2013, 11:43 AM
  #152
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This isn't a shot at you and don't take it disrespectfully but I hate that second paragraph because it just shows how disgustingly underrated Mark Morris is. I remember some **** saying he was overrated and he should just be removed from this board. Far and away one of the people I respect most in the game. Has quietly developed SO much talent, even dating back to college, and I think he finds his way in the NHL in some capacity next year.
cns, rumor has MM signing a new contract with us later this season (details need to be worked out but there have been positive talks already). Next time you run into MM can you ask him about it?

That would be an enormous win for us if he were to come back or even if it is to keep him in the system by moving him up ladder it would still be a big win.

Just curious, it is early to hear such things but I figured you might be able to shed a little light on the matter.

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11-15-2013, 12:04 PM
  #153
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Before everyone trades away the bottom 6 to make room for the kids, lets make sure that they (Vey and Pearson) arent out matched by teams like the coyotes and sharks and can stand up in those hard hitting games. Don't forget that they are rookies and will make mistakes and might need to sit and watch and take a breath here and there.

If it works out this is about the lineup I would like to see:

Pearson-Kopitar-Williams
King-Richards-Toffoli
Brown-Vey-Carter
carcillo/nolan-Stoll-Lewis/frattin

All the rookies have a veteran presence to help them out and protect them. Can also pretty much roll all 4 lines without having to worry who they match up against. Great center depth.

I do think that Clifford might be traded, he is in the same mold as Carcillo and Nolan but for more $$.

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11-15-2013, 12:16 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by dman3474 View Post
Before everyone trades away the bottom 6 to make room for the kids, lets make sure that they (Vey and Pearson) arent out matched by teams like the coyotes and sharks and can stand up in those hard hitting games. Don't forget that they are rookies and will make mistakes and might need to sit and watch and take a breath here and there.
Yes.

I can't imagine Pearson-Vey-Toffoli out there vs., say, Cracknell-Lapierre-Reaves. They'd get mashed into a pulp over a 7 game series. While it's exciting to have them in the lineup and it's nice to have an infusion of creativity, Sutter playoff hockey is hard work and grinding. I said before that we didn't "beat" the Blues we "survived" them...I don't know that we do that with kids out there. I could be wrong and it could be the opposite--that with a little bit of learning, they'll control the puck more anyway--just a thought to rein in the dreaming!

In my head, Toffoli should never leave the lineup again. He's an NHL player. Vey has a bit more learning defensively, especially if he's at center, and he's been getting ragdolled along the boards. I'm 50-50 on him but I see positives if he stays up. I'm not sold at all on Pearson. I send him back down in a heartbeat. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing an NHL player there yet, especially if people are saying he's coming up as a gritty power-forward-ish puck retrieval type. He lost way too many board battles for that skill set. Some more ice time and confidence will help I'm sure, but I don't see us hanging onto him in the NHL all year.

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11-15-2013, 12:37 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by MN14 View Post
I can't imagine Pearson-Vey-Toffoli out there vs., say, Cracknell-Lapierre-Reaves. They'd get mashed into a pulp over a 7 game series. While it's exciting to have them in the lineup and it's nice to have an infusion of creativity, Sutter playoff hockey is hard work and grinding.
This is why I am reluctant to see Stoll leave. I would think the same about Clifford except that he is so very injury prone and may not have a long career do to the same. I also don't think that Lombardi will move Stoll before the end of the playoffs unless he can get a playoff upgrade.

It looks like Fraser's spot is in jeopardy. Can Frattin be sent down without clearing?

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11-15-2013, 12:55 PM
  #156
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The bottom line is those rookies aren't going to be handed anything and I can't see the Kings holding all 3 up the rest of the season for the reasons mentioned above. When things get gritty in the playoffs, are they going to be able to cut it? Are those the guys you want in the trenches? I'm sure somebody will chime in reminding us of Perry, Getzlaf and Penner but all three of those players are more physical than the three on the Kings roster. There is no way in hell I see DL running with those three as a third line and dumping Stoll, Clifford and Fraser. Fraser may be on the verge of losing his spot to one of those guys but I can't see all three of them sticking in the line up once these other guys are healthy and I'm ok with that.

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11-15-2013, 01:30 PM
  #157
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This was also a game against a weaker sister in a weaker conference, these kids dominated the Ahl which the isles have a lot in common with...........but it is nice to see we do have options coming up, but we are contenders and just waiving vets or trading them away for picks probably won't happen until these guys are more proven...............and in regards to Cliffy does anyone remember he is a 22 year old power forward, which historically take longer to develop, but I do admit to being concerned about his head staying on right, each concussion makes it easier for the next, it would be a damn shame if this kid doesn't get the chance to develop

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11-15-2013, 01:35 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
The bottom line is those rookies aren't going to be handed anything and I can't see the Kings holding all 3 up the rest of the season for the reasons mentioned above.
Toffoli is in LA to stay. I have concerns with the other two. For instance, Vey gets thrown around a lot. But they do have some advantages as well. Vey and or Pearson may not yet be ready to stick but an argument can be made that we need to find out if they are a better fit than guys like Clifford or Frattin. Our bottom six is all grind, no score. So I like this extended exposure they are getting.

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11-15-2013, 01:41 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Dropdapuck View Post
Toffoli is in LA to stay. I have concerns with the other two. For instance, Vey gets thrown around a lot. But they do have some advantages as well. Vey and or Pearson may not yet be ready to stick but an argument can be made that we need to find out if they are a better fit than guys like Clifford or Frattin. Our bottom six is all grind, no score. So I like this extended exposure they are getting.
Vey gets thrown around just as much as Fraser does and doesnt take dumb penalties. Pearson is great from the one game he's been in but its just one game. it will be interesting to see what happens!

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11-15-2013, 01:47 PM
  #160
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Don't sell em short just yet. It's hard to say how players respond in the playoffs. It's not always about size. It sure helps wear down teams, but there are smaller players in this league that do just fine: Richards, Kane, St. Louis. I think it's more about your desire and drive- they certainly aren't lacking in talent.

Losing Penner is a quandry for me. He has the prototypical hockey body but takes so many nights off. It's easy for him with Getzlaf and Perry. That line has to be one of the scariest in the league right now.

On a side note: I'd *really* like to see St. Louis play Chicago in the postseason. I think that would be a hell of a series. It would be nice if we could finish a little higher in the division so we don't have to go against San Jose and St. Louis again. That was killer.

It's surprising to me how good Phoenix has been so far.

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Originally Posted by MN14 View Post
Yes.

I can't imagine Pearson-Vey-Toffoli out there vs., say, Cracknell-Lapierre-Reaves. They'd get mashed into a pulp over a 7 game series. While it's exciting to have them in the lineup and it's nice to have an infusion of creativity, Sutter playoff hockey is hard work and grinding. I said before that we didn't "beat" the Blues we "survived" them...I don't know that we do that with kids out there. I could be wrong and it could be the opposite--that with a little bit of learning, they'll control the puck more anyway--just a thought to rein in the dreaming!

In my head, Toffoli should never leave the lineup again. He's an NHL player. Vey has a bit more learning defensively, especially if he's at center, and he's been getting ragdolled along the boards. I'm 50-50 on him but I see positives if he stays up. I'm not sold at all on Pearson. I send him back down in a heartbeat. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing an NHL player there yet, especially if people are saying he's coming up as a gritty power-forward-ish puck retrieval type. He lost way too many board battles for that skill set. Some more ice time and confidence will help I'm sure, but I don't see us hanging onto him in the NHL all year.

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11-15-2013, 01:51 PM
  #161
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Pearson was better than Vey and Toffoli in camp. I realize that it is just camp, but this kid is an NHLer. Whether it's this year or next, he's going to be in the big show. I think he was a bit nervous last night and that reflected in his game. It's only his 2nd game in the NHL but he was on fire in the 3rd period. Did you see him driving to the net on that rush? Was great to see. Really happy Sutter put these guys together. If they can keep it together defensively, I don't think we'll worry about missing Stoll/Clifford and even Carter for awhile.

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Yes.

I can't imagine Pearson-Vey-Toffoli out there vs., say, Cracknell-Lapierre-Reaves. They'd get mashed into a pulp over a 7 game series. While it's exciting to have them in the lineup and it's nice to have an infusion of creativity, Sutter playoff hockey is hard work and grinding. I said before that we didn't "beat" the Blues we "survived" them...I don't know that we do that with kids out there. I could be wrong and it could be the opposite--that with a little bit of learning, they'll control the puck more anyway--just a thought to rein in the dreaming!

In my head, Toffoli should never leave the lineup again. He's an NHL player. Vey has a bit more learning defensively, especially if he's at center, and he's been getting ragdolled along the boards. I'm 50-50 on him but I see positives if he stays up. I'm not sold at all on Pearson. I send him back down in a heartbeat. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing an NHL player there yet, especially if people are saying he's coming up as a gritty power-forward-ish puck retrieval type. He lost way too many board battles for that skill set. Some more ice time and confidence will help I'm sure, but I don't see us hanging onto him in the NHL all year.

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11-15-2013, 02:01 PM
  #162
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Dont compare a blues fourth line to the Kings third line. That just makes it unfair. Do you think DL would seriously consider Sending down kids down because of the hard hitting in the NHL?

Do you not remember what CAUSED us to win the Blues in the first place? Skill. Your argument justifying why the kids should he sent down are misguided.

A fourth line of Carcillo Stoll Nolan is more than enough to put a fight up against the blues. I understand they aren't the biggest of players, but worrying over the size of the kids is really not a good argument to be made. They get used to the pace of the NHL and then everything falls into place.

Same reason you don't see Williams always injured. He's pretty small, and so is Richards. This is the NHL not the UFC

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11-15-2013, 02:13 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
Dont compare a blues fourth line to the Kings third line. That just makes it unfair. Do you think DL would seriously consider Sending down kids down because of the hard hitting in the NHL?

Do you not remember what CAUSED us to win the Blues in the first place? Skill. Your argument justifying why the kids should he sent down are misguided.

A fourth line of Carcillo Stoll Nolan is more than enough to put a fight up against the blues. I understand they aren't the biggest of players, but worrying over the size of the kids is really not a good argument to be made. They get used to the pace of the NHL and then everything falls into place.

Same reason you don't see Williams always injured. He's pretty small, and so is Richards. This is the NHL not the UFC
How is it unfair? I'm not comparing them per se; I'm saying when we play x team in the playoffs and they have home ice advantage, you have the potential of getting those kids stuck out there with some real size. Or how about this--how do you feel about the kids line vs. Burns-Thornton-anyone?

I would say that saying we beat the Blues because of skill is oversimplified.

Fully agree that your listed fourth line is solid and that yes the kids need time to improve, get used to the league, and that my argument could be moot by the time playoffs roll around. I'm just saying exercise caution, because as I mentioned before, we're praising the kids for their offense and ignoring the things that Stoll et. al. get executed for on a nightly basis.

As far as the Williams point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmr View Post
Don't sell em short just yet. It's hard to say how players respond in the playoffs. It's not always about size. It sure helps wear down teams, but there are smaller players in this league that do just fine: Richards, Kane, St. Louis. I think it's more about your desire and drive- they certainly aren't lacking in talent.
bmr here brings up a good point about smaller players succeeding, and I agree--it's less about size directly and more about drive. You don't need to be prototypically huge to win puck battles, and along with Williams, bmr lists Richards, Kane, and St. Louis. When was the last time you saw St. Louis lose a puck battle? Williams and Richards are very good along the boards and do throw their weight around appropriately. What I'm saying is that while Toffoli is approaching their level in the trenches, Vey and Pearson are absolutely not. They lost more than their fair share of defensive and board battles and were getting ragdolled all night vs. the Islanders. What happens when they play the Sharks, Blues, Yotes, et. al. is a fair question.

Again, you're both absolutely right that a near-full season of development in the NHL may solve these problems, but you have to admit they're a questionmark. For all the talk about Nugent-Hopkins' elusiveness, he sure has spent a lot of time on the IR; the point is that most of these kids are just that and we don't know how they'll respond to the NHL grind.

I'm not trying to be a negative nancy at all, and I'm not trying to sell anyone short, I just want to exercise a degree of caution and realism with the callups.

(though to be fair I'm probably jumping the gun on Pearson. I'll chalk that up to first game nerves and wanting to do things right.)

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11-15-2013, 02:48 PM
  #164
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Can Frattin be sent down without clearing?
Nope.

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11-15-2013, 02:55 PM
  #165
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I think almost all of our lines would have trouble handling Burns and Thornton. They are bigger than the average player by far. Doesn't mean we have to fight fire with fire.

I'm saying that you shouldn't be scared of sending out smaller players because there are bigger players. Stoll isn't that much bigger than them. He's more conditioned I can tell but the difference isn't really that much of A difference, but the skill level between these players than the ones we started the year with is massive. It's for the greater good, it comes with more risk, but the rewards are much more massive than what we get from the season starting line up.


Stoll has absolutely no offensive ability, I understand what they bring, but what they bring isn't what the team is lacking.

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11-15-2013, 02:57 PM
  #166
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cns, rumor has MM signing a new contract with us later this season (details need to be worked out but there have been positive talks already). Next time you run into MM can you ask him about it?

That would be an enormous win for us if he were to come back or even if it is to keep him in the system by moving him up ladder it would still be a big win.

Just curious, it is early to hear such things but I figured you might be able to shed a little light on the matter.
I'll try but no guarantees. I doubt he gives me anything honestly, especially when he wants an NHL gig. My gut tells me he's gone but if you're hearing he is in talks for a new contract, that's great news.

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11-15-2013, 03:09 PM
  #167
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My gut is Morris stays in manchester. His name never comes up in rumours for coaching vacancies and he's shwon the ability/desire to be loyal given his college career and now his time in the AHL, all with Manchester.

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11-15-2013, 04:14 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Dropdapuck View Post
This is why I am reluctant to see Stoll leave. I would think the same about Clifford except that he is so very injury prone and may not have a long career do to the same. I also don't think that Lombardi will move Stoll before the end of the playoffs unless he can get a playoff upgrade.

It looks like Fraser's spot is in jeopardy. Can Frattin be sent down without clearing?
The only players on the rosters that are forwards that can be sent down without clearing are the 3 rookies. And that is exactly why they were sent down to start the season. With the way it looking they are going to force some hands because of their play. But a team can't just give up assets without return.
Look at Elerby. It was the right choice for the time. But now due to injuries it would sure be nice to have him avail as the 7th D. But he got claimed on wavers.
So unless someone is willing to make a trade and send back picks or prospects for them we will have a hard time not sending the kids back down. And with 14 teams using LTIR to stay compliant and a few more that can't even add the min salary. Trading partners are scarce when it's not close to being dollar for dollar.

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11-15-2013, 04:28 PM
  #169
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I'll try but no guarantees. I doubt he gives me anything honestly, especially when he wants an NHL gig. My gut tells me he's gone but if you're hearing he is in talks for a new contract, that's great news.
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My gut is Morris stays in manchester. His name never comes up in rumours for coaching vacancies and he's shwon the ability/desire to be loyal given his college career and now his time in the AHL, all with Manchester.
You guys think he could at least get a Assistant job somewhere? Seems qualified. He's been in Manchester forever. Maybe he's just looking to mix things up a bit. New challenges and what not.

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11-15-2013, 04:45 PM
  #170
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Wow, Vey is just ridiculously skilled. He will nail down the defensive zone stuff in time, I am sure, but across the blue line that guy absolutely dances with the puck. We badly needed some offensive spark and the Little Crown Line really brought it.

I think it's time to show Clifford and Frasier the door. Vey is just better than Frasier, period, and Stoll can center the 4th line and be a face-off specialist. Nolan is like Clifford but better, more skilled, and with less injury history anyway, and letting him go would allow us to keep Pearson. Keeping Nolan, Stoll, Frattin, Lewis, and Carcillo for the 4th line will give us good flexibility and depth in case of injuries.

Sorry Cliffy and Frasier. Love ya, I'll be forever grateful for helping us win the cup, but these kids are the future of the Kings.

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11-15-2013, 05:08 PM
  #171
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I think it's time to show Clifford and Frasier the door....

Sorry Cliffy and Frasier. Love ya, I'll be forever grateful for helping us win the cup, but these kids are the future of the Kings.
I think it has already been established that simply slotting Vey and Pearson into the 13th and 14th slots long term does not work because it throws us over the cap. Or maybe I'm confused?


Last edited by Dropdapuck: 11-15-2013 at 05:18 PM. Reason: clarification
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11-15-2013, 05:19 PM
  #172
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I think it has already been established that simply slotting Vey and Pearson into the 13th and 14th slots long term does not work because it throws us over the cap. Or maybe I'm confused?
Nope it can be done.

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11-15-2013, 09:43 PM
  #173
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You guys think he could at least get a Assistant job somewhere? Seems qualified. He's been in Manchester forever. Maybe he's just looking to mix things up a bit. New challenges and what not.
He could, though Asst jobs typically either go to guys getting promoted within the organization (IE becomes Sutter's Asst. down the line) or join a new coach that they have worked with in the past (either in coaching or as a player) who has landed a head coaching gig in the NHL.

I'm unaware of anyone that Morris played/coached with that is in the NHL as a coach now.

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