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Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame?

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01-14-2017, 12:44 PM
  #151
Big Phil
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I think another thing we can perhaps point at is that Turgeon doesn't have a flagship team that he was recognized with. It has hurt other players too. I think it is partially the reason Recchi isn't in yet. Maybe it is why it took Adam Oates so long to get in as well. Gilmour was at least identified by most as a Leaf, but he didn't even play the most games as a Leaf. Unless they were thinking about off-ice issues with Gilmour, I am guessing this affected him waiting so long.

So it leads you to ask, what is Turgeon? A Sabre? An Islander? A Hab? A Blue? Here is his tenure with each team:

Blues - 327 games
Sabres - 322
Islanders - 255
Stars - 207
Habs - 104
Avs - 79

That's a little muddy. I am not one to put him in the HHOF regardless but it always helps your career when you can be identified with one franchise even if you didn't play your whole career there. He was never with a team as long as 5 years.

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01-14-2017, 09:50 PM
  #152
The Panther
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Blues - 327 games
Sabres - 322
Islanders - 255
To me, this is the strangest thing about his career. How many Hall of Famers were traded twice during their prime (mid-20s)?

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01-14-2017, 09:56 PM
  #153
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My favourite team growing up was the Islanders. When the Isles traded Patty for him to Buffalo, I switched favourite teams.

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01-15-2017, 05:33 AM
  #154
Big Phil
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To me, this is the strangest thing about his career. How many Hall of Famers were traded twice during their prime (mid-20s)?
Three if you want to count 1996 from Montreal to St. Louis. By the way, just another in a string of bad trades by Rejean Houle. Turgeon may have had a bit of a reputation as being soft, but the guy was worth a whole lot more than being part of a package that is traded for (ahem) Shayne Corson and Murray Baron. Bad trade I thought, just right after a game where he got 4 assists too. Now, why did Houle make that trade? Part of it was incompetence for sure, but what was the reason behind letting your captain go who just had 96 points for you the previous year?

Another lopsided trade, he goes to the Islanders with Vladimir Malakhov (not a bad defenseman but young at that time) for Kirk Muller, Mathieu Schneider and Craig Darby? Huh? I mean, Muller had an off year in 1994 and wasn't playing well in 1995. I don't know what they thought they were going to get but he wasn't replacing Turgeon's points and never did. Another trade where Turgeon left so his team could get more sandpaper and grit, all within a year and a half between the two.

The 1991 trade makes sense. He's part of a package in exchange for part of a package with Lafontaine.

Doug Gilmour is a player that was traded twice in his prime too. Granted, these are different reasons. We all know the St. Louis reasons and then he left Calgary too. Bad trade that second one, but the thing with Gilmour is that the fortunes of both teams reversed. The Flames were deflated and never the same and the Leafs became an elite team.

Oates and Recchi both were traded a couple of times in their prime or close to it. Coffey too. So it happens, but I think the thing is there are more reasons than we think for this to happen and the other players tend to have things that offset this negative thing in their careers. I don't think Turgeon has this.

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01-15-2017, 05:43 AM
  #155
Michael Whiteacre
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Three if you want to count 1996 from Montreal to St. Louis. By the way, just another in a string of bad trades by Rejean Houle. Turgeon may have had a bit of a reputation as being soft, but the guy was worth a whole lot more than being part of a package that is traded for (ahem) Shayne Corson and Murray Baron. Bad trade I thought, just right after a game where he got 4 assists too. Now, why did Houle make that trade? Part of it was incompetence for sure, but what was the reason behind letting your captain go who just had 96 points for you the previous year?

Another lopsided trade, he goes to the Islanders with Vladimir Malakhov (not a bad defenseman but young at that time) for Kirk Muller, Mathieu Schneider and Craig Darby? Huh? I mean, Muller had an off year in 1994 and wasn't playing well in 1995. I don't know what they thought they were going to get but he wasn't replacing Turgeon's points and never did. Another trade where Turgeon left so his team could get more sandpaper and grit, all within a year and a half between the two.

The 1991 trade makes sense. He's part of a package in exchange for part of a package with Lafontaine.

Doug Gilmour is a player that was traded twice in his prime too. Granted, these are different reasons. We all know the St. Louis reasons and then he left Calgary too. Bad trade that second one, but the thing with Gilmour is that the fortunes of both teams reversed. The Flames were deflated and never the same and the Leafs became an elite team.

Oates and Recchi both were traded a couple of times in their prime or close to it. Coffey too. So it happens, but I think the thing is there are more reasons than we think for this to happen and the other players tend to have things that offset this negative thing in their careers. I don't think Turgeon has this.
@Big Phil, well at least Shayne Corson had established himself as a bigger point producer during the one season he had with Montreal in '89-'90 where Bobby Smith and Mats Naslund were falling by the wayside and Chris Chelios missed a big chunk of the season in his final season as a Canadiens member.

Murray Baron? I don't think I really care about this boring blueliner even if he was intended to play like a merely strict sandpaper and gritty blueliner without ever becoming a point producer.

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01-15-2017, 05:59 AM
  #156
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@Big Phil, well at least Shayne Corson had established himself as a bigger point producer during the one season he had with Montreal in '89-'90 where Bobby Smith and Mats Naslund were falling by the wayside and Chris Chelios missed a big chunk of the season in his final season as a Canadiens member.

Murray Baron? I don't think I really care about this boring blueliner even if he was intended to play like a merely strict sandpaper and gritty blueliner without ever becoming a point producer.
Corson had a 75 point season in 1990 and then never close again, I mean not even close. He had a 46 point season in 1996 with St. Louis. Then started out 1996-'97 with 3 points in 11 games. He had an unusually good playoff in 1996 with 14 points in 13 games, which may have helped boost his value a bit, but there was never a time I would have ever taken Corson over Turgeon. Not even close. Sandpaper and grit or not, the guy was at best a 50 point guy who was never mistaken for a Selke winner. I don't know what led to that trade.

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01-15-2017, 06:20 AM
  #157
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Corson had a 75 point season in 1990 and then never close again, I mean not even close. He had a 46 point season in 1996 with St. Louis. Then started out 1996-'97 with 3 points in 11 games. He had an unusually good playoff in 1996 with 14 points in 13 games, which may have helped boost his value a bit, but there was never a time I would have ever taken Corson over Turgeon. Not even close. Sandpaper and grit or not, the guy was at best a 50 point guy who was never mistaken for a Selke winner. I don't know what led to that trade.
It makes me wonder Shayne Corson mistakenly decided to go to the Toronto Maple Leafs as a free agent in 2000 where he originally wanted to be close to his hometown, but due to his hometown being a bigger media crazed city than he liked for the pressure of playing for the Leafs, Corson probably fell by the wayside because he wouldn't take his anti-anxiety medication and it worsened.

What if Corson went to the Dallas Stars in 2000 instead of waiting until 2003-04 when he had a semi-retirement phase due to his persona non grata rep that worsened at the end of his time in Toronto in '02-'03, and Dallas had nothing but good things to say about him, even if Corson lasted only nine games in '03-'04.

Sure, the Philadelphia Flyers were interested in bringing aboard Corson in 2000 via free agency because Philadelphia always has the reputation for their fans being in awe of the gritty Philadelphia sports teams they were accustomed to for decades, so it was naturally good on paper for Corson to go to Philadelphia instead of Toronto, but Philadelphia also is a media crazed city, but not as big as the N.Y. Rangers, Toronto or even Montreal, so Corson's anxiety disorder and colitis illnesses probably wouldn't help him in Philly.

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01-15-2017, 08:29 AM
  #158
Iain Fyffe
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Bad trade I thought, just right after a game where he got 4 assists too. Now, why did Houle make that trade? Part of it was incompetence for sure, but what was the reason behind letting your captain go who just had 96 points for you the previous year?
I remember at the time many pundits justifying the fact they were shopping Turgeon around because the Habs had "too many centres." They had Vinny Damphousse and young Saku Koivu started the season really strong to give that impression. Never mind the fact that Damphousse could play left wing. Never mind the fact that, you know, players can often get injured (as Koivu did that season). Never mind the fact that centre is an incredibly important position and being deep there is an advantage, not a problem.

It would have been one thing if Houle dealt from a position of strength, using the team's depth at centre to get a good return from another team. But Houle was just really, really bad at his job.

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01-15-2017, 08:35 AM
  #159
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Corson had a 75 point season in 1990 and then never close again, I mean not even close.
He scored 55 points in 62 games in 1997/98, when goals were much harder to come by than in 1989/90, like 30% harder. Even if you don't consider scoring context, his raw per-game figure is only 11% lower than. He also had other seasons with 53 points in 64 games, and 54 in 64. So his main problem was his tendency to get injured - he wasn't some kind of one-season wonder in terms of offence.

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01-15-2017, 08:20 PM
  #160
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To me, this is the strangest thing about his career. How many Hall of Famers were traded twice during their prime (mid-20s)?
Its not that uncommon for guys who started their careers in the 80s (or later).

Shanahan was traded twice in his 20s and was on four teams by age 27.

Housley had been traded 3 times by the time he was 30.

Murphy had been traded 3 times by the time he was 29.

Gilmour and Oates were mentioned above.

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Yesterday, 12:19 AM
  #161
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Its not that uncommon for guys who started their careers in the 80s (or later).

Shanahan was traded twice in his 20s and was on four teams by age 27.

Housley had been traded 3 times by the time he was 30.

Murphy had been traded 3 times by the time he was 29.

Gilmour and Oates were mentioned above.
Yeah, I guess so. But 3 trades by age 27 is more than Gilmour/Oates/Murphy, and none of the trades were because of off-ice issues/contract-disputes (that I'm aware of), unlike Shanahan.

Then, there's the whole captain-of-Montreal-Canadiens thing. How does that work? You're named captain of the greatest franchise in hockey history and then they deal you away a year later when you're still the scoring leader of the team.

4 teams by age 27 is kind of odd, I think, for a hugely talented player. Then again, it's just idle speculation as to why that was -- not really for us to say.

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Yesterday, 12:57 AM
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Yeah, I guess so. But 3 trades by age 27 is more than Gilmour/Oates/Murphy, and none of the trades were because of off-ice issues/contract-disputes (that I'm aware of), unlike Shanahan.

Then, there's the whole captain-of-Montreal-Canadiens thing. How does that work? You're named captain of the greatest franchise in hockey history and then they deal you away a year later when you're still the scoring leader of the team.

4 teams by age 27 is kind of odd, I think, for a hugely talented player. Then again, it's just idle speculation as to why that was -- not really for us to say.
Coffey bounced around. 3 trades before age 30, 4 by age 32 and defenseman generally get better with age, eventually Coffey saw 9 different trades. Not sure being traded alot means anything.

I compare Turgeron to Ray Whitney of the here and now. Great talents but not HHOF worthy.

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Yesterday, 01:07 AM
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Yeah, I guess so. But 3 trades by age 27 is more than Gilmour/Oates/Murphy, and none of the trades were because of off-ice issues/contract-disputes (that I'm aware of), unlike Shanahan.

Then, there's the whole captain-of-Montreal-Canadiens thing. How does that work? You're named captain of the greatest franchise in hockey history and then they deal you away a year later when you're still the scoring leader of the team.

4 teams by age 27 is kind of odd, I think, for a hugely talented player. Then again, it's just idle speculation as to why that was -- not really for us to say.
It was just a weird era when great players were traded around like hockey cards.

From 1991 to 1997 the window when he was traded twice, off the top of my head Gilmour, Shanahan, Selanne, Housley, MacInnis, Coffey, Recchi, Francis, Lafontaine, Roy, Lindros, Sundin, Nolan, Leclair, Stevens, Mogilny, Roenick, Belfour, Joseph, Damphousse, Messier, Muller, Lafontaine, Hawerchuk, Anderson, Fuhr, Andreychuk, Brind'Amour all changed hands at least once.

Between changing economics, the meltdown of the great Alberta teams, some Keenan run experiments and expansion, there was so much activity. That kind of movement doesn't happen today.

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Yesterday, 02:47 AM
  #164
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Coffey bounced around. 3 trades before age 30, 4 by age 32 and defenseman generally get better with age, eventually Coffey saw 9 different trades. Not sure being traded alot means anything.

I compare Turgeron to Ray Whitney of the here and now. Great talents but not HHOF worthy.
I'm not fan of him for the HHOF, but he is clearly a noticeable step above Whitney.

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I remember at the time many pundits justifying the fact they were shopping Turgeon around because the Habs had "too many centres." They had Vinny Damphousse and young Saku Koivu started the season really strong to give that impression. Never mind the fact that Damphousse could play left wing. Never mind the fact that, you know, players can often get injured (as Koivu did that season). Never mind the fact that centre is an incredibly important position and being deep there is an advantage, not a problem.

It would have been one thing if Houle dealt from a position of strength, using the team's depth at centre to get a good return from another team. But Houle was just really, really bad at his job.
Never thought about the Koivu angle, good call. I remember Koivu leading the NHL in scoring early in the season. I knew it wouldn't last as Mario was expected to take over - and he did - but it was still impressive. Maybe they thought they had a guy to replace Turgeon. I never understood why he was captain when they had Damphousse there already for a longer time and as a part of a Cup winner.

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Yesterday, 03:44 AM
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I'm not fan of him for the HHOF, but he is clearly a noticeable step above Whitney.
.
Yeah, its probably a bad comparision. They have the same style of play. For some reason they remind me of each other.

Whitney did manage over 1000 points playing after the 80s and during the DPE for 1/2 his career.

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Yesterday, 10:00 AM
  #166
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I'm not fan of him for the HHOF, but he is clearly a noticeable step above Whitney.



Never thought about the Koivu angle, good call. I remember Koivu leading the NHL in scoring early in the season. I knew it wouldn't last as Mario was expected to take over - and he did - but it was still impressive. Maybe they thought they had a guy to replace Turgeon. I never understood why he was captain when they had Damphousse there already for a longer time and as a part of a Cup winner.
Turgeon asked for a trade out of Montreal. In part because Tremblay was playing him on the third line instead of shifting Damphousse (or Koivu or Turgeon) to the wing.

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