16 games is very close to 20 games. Which is a quarter of a season. Come on, people were ******** on Marleau at 16 games, but Pavelski goes 16 and not a peep from anyone on here.
So Marleau getting hot doesn't count because JT was playing awesome, but somehow Pavs getting hot counts despite JT also playing awesome?
Well, Pavelski's effort is hardly ever questioned. From what I remember, for most nights, it looks like he's putting in his all just not getting the bounces. I can't say the same for the recent Marleau (not during the whole 16 game stretch, but at times). He's been poor along the boards, weak on the puck, and his passing has been average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
9 goals in 13 games is extremely dominant. Couture never had a stretch like that if you like. And then, I suppose you'll abandon that argument and go for the "consistency" argument, which is stupid because Couture has also been inconsistent.
Couture and Pavelski were arguably the best forwards on the team pre-all-star break. That's pretty consistent if you ask me. And Couture did have a stretch like that. The month of December, 9 goals in 13 games. I could cherry-pick stats like the best of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
Why not? Because we are talking about who is the better offensive forward. I don't see how getting paid more makes you a worse offensive player. What it does, is leave higher expectations, so your judgement here is "Who has exceeded my expectations more", which is hardly the question here.
Because the point totals of the 3 of them are so close, you can't help (even at least on a subconscious level) to favor the guy who gets less paid. This is all hypothetical anyway, I have no clue why people voted for Pavelski and Couture instead of Thornton. But what exactly has Marleau done this season that warrants getting a vote over Pavelski and Couture? At least the other 2 have more goals, which is the most probable reason why people voted for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
You 'expect' better from Marleau. So here's the core of the issue. You excuse Couture or Pavelski from their slumps, but Marleau is inexcusable. I swear, he can't do anything right around here. Play with more of an edge? Sure, but then no one notices. Pavelski's first goal against Dallas doesn't happen if Marleau doesn't make a really nice physical play behind the net to get the puck to JT. But no one notices, as per usual. Pavelski had the easiest job in that goal, and he gets all the credit.
It's less Patty-hate and more that nothing he does is appreciated.
And when I say this board, I mean the more vocal members. I think I may be one of 3 or 4 member who defend Marleau all the time, where as Couture and Pavelski are universally loved for far less accomplishment and service.
I think the core of the issue lies in your last statement. While you're accusing people of "what have you done for me lately", it seems like you're using "what have you done for me in the past". His past achievements and his long tenure seem to be clouding your judgement. I can agree with you that Pavelski and Couture are getting a little more votes than they probably should have, but that's not Marleau-hate at all. They could just love Pavelski or Couture more. Marleau really hasn't done anything to warrant getting more votes.
And I completely disagree that Patty gets no appreciation, you're just choosing to ignore them. Tons of people call Patty out for sure, but tons of people also acknowledge when he gets on a hot streak (ie, sayings like "when Patty is hot, he's unstoppable"). A few of those "Patty defenders" also refuse to acknowledge when he's bad. It's like he's infallible in their minds (not you or PF if you're wondering).
I criticize players when they are bad, and I acknowledge them when they are good. Pretty sure I criticized everyone at least once this season, except for maybe Vlasic.
Well, Pavelski's effort is hardly ever questioned. From what I remember, for most nights, it looks like he's putting in his all just not getting the bounces. I can't say the same for the recent Marleau (not during the whole 16 game stretch, but at times). He's been poor along the boards, weak on the puck, and his passing has been average.
So Pavelski is better because his effort is hardly ever questioned by online posters who have never played professional hockey and Marleau's is. Great defense.
Marleau is very strong on the boards if nothing else. Like I said, Pavelski's first goal last game doesn't happen without a strong board play by Marleau. And people all forget it. I remember lots of other plays just like it: Marleau gets it off the boards and shakes the defender, passes it to Thornton, who dishes it to Pavs in the slot. Only no one remembers how the play started.
[QUOTE=WTFetus;47188709]Couture and Pavelski were arguably the best forwards on the team pre-all-star break. That's pretty consistent if you ask me. And Couture did have a stretch like that. The month of December, 9 goals in 13 games. I could cherry-pick stats like the best of them. [/QOUTE]
I thought we were arguing about Pavelski regarding consistency. But regardless, doesn't that show that Couture is streaky as Marleau? Only Couture doesn't get called out for it. I love Logan as much as the next Sharks fan, but he's awfully idealized around here; because he's the future of our team, no one wants to acknowledge his faults. Couture has 3 goals in his last 19 games, and they were 3 in two games consecutively. Yet no one is talking about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
Because the point totals of the 3 of them are so close, you can't help (even at least on a subconscious level) to favor the guy who gets less paid. This is all hypothetical anyway, I have no clue why people voted for Pavelski and Couture instead of Thornton. But what exactly has Marleau done this season that warrants getting a vote over Pavelski and Couture? At least the other 2 have more goals, which is the most probable reason why people voted for them.
I can agree with most of this, but having two goals more than Marleau shouldn't mean that much. IN fact, let me try something. I have no idea how it's going to turn out:
Goals assisted by Thornton
Couture: 11/30
Marleau: 10/28
Pavelski: 25/31. (12 were assisted by Marleau)
That's ridiculous. Pavelski has only scored 6 goals on the whole season that weren't assisted by Thornton, and only two of his 31 goals were scored without Thornton or Marleau getting an assist. Kinda makes you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
I think the core of the issue lies in your last statement. While you're accusing people of "what have you done for me lately", it seems like you're using "what have you done for me in the past". His past achievements and his long tenure seem to be clouding your judgement. I can agree with you that Pavelski and Couture are getting a little more votes than they probably should have, but that's not Marleau-hate at all. They could just love Pavelski or Couture more. Marleau really hasn't done anything to warrant getting more votes.
When I said "accomplishments and service" I meant as a justification for why he was top-3 in the All-Time Favorite Shark polls. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
And I completely disagree that Patty gets no appreciation, you're just choosing to ignore them. Tons of people call Patty out for sure, but tons of people also acknowledge when he gets on a hot streak (ie, sayings like "when Patty is hot, he's unstoppable"). A few of those "Patty defenders" also refuse to acknowledge when he's bad. It's like he's infallible in their minds (not you or PF if you're wondering).
I criticize players when they are bad, and I acknowledge them when they are good. Pretty sure I criticized everyone at least once this season, except for maybe Vlasic.
I'm sure I have a degree of tunnel vision. And I'm not pointing at you specifically. But most people just take him for granted. I guess that's most of my beef.
And the rest of it is just that neither Couture nor Pavelski ever get the same crap that Marleau gets when he's not scoring, even though he's as good (Pavelski) or better (Couture) defensively and more physical. Man, Pavelski just got out of a brutal stretch of play, but all I saw was the occasional "oh, Pavs hasn't looked good lately". Couture is not playing well at all right now, but I don't see anyone complaining. But Marleau isn't scoring it's the end of the world.
So Pavelski is better because his effort is hardly ever questioned by online posters who have never played professional hockey and Marleau's is. Great defense.
Well, the argument is about online posters who voted for Pavelski instead of Marleau, so "hardly ever questioned by online posters" is a pretty good reason...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
Marleau is very strong on the boards if nothing else. Like I said, Pavelski's first goal last game doesn't happen without a strong board play by Marleau. And people all forget it. I remember lots of other plays just like it: Marleau gets it off the boards and shakes the defender, passes it to Thornton, who dishes it to Pavs in the slot. Only no one remembers how the play started.
I guess we have different definitions of board play. That wasn't really on the boards, just behind the net. I was more referring to the grind-it-down, cycle game on the boards. Not the last game in particular, but the ones before that, Pavelski and Thornton did all the heavy lifting. The cycle game literally died on Marleau's stick due to physicality, or a handcuff pass back to a forward or D.
And the play started from a great pinch by the defenseman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
I thought we were arguing about Pavelski regarding consistency. But regardless, doesn't that show that Couture is streaky as Marleau? Only Couture doesn't get called out for it. I love Logan as much as the next Sharks fan, but he's awfully idealized around here; because he's the future of our team, no one wants to acknowledge his faults. Couture has 3 goals in his last 19 games, and they were 3 in two games consecutively. Yet no one is talking about that.
You said Couture never had a streak like Marleau and that he's just as inconsistent. He did have a streak like Marleau, and I'd say he was consistently the best Sharks' forward pre-all-star break. And Couture most definitely gets called out on it. I recall a number of posters calling out his recent cold streak. But even if you ignore that, again, I'm pretty sure the posters can't help not calling out Couture. In this scenario, "expectations" are relevant. People hoped Couture would be this dominant in his sophomore year, but no one really expected it. We expect better from Marleau, especially considering he's making a lot more than the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
I can agree with most of this, but having two goals more than Marleau shouldn't mean that much. IN fact, let me try something. I have no idea how it's going to turn out:
Goals assisted by Thornton
Couture: 11/30
Marleau: 10/28
Pavelski: 25/31. (12 were assisted by Marleau)
That's ridiculous. Pavelski has only scored 6 goals on the whole season that weren't assisted by Thornton, and only two of his 31 goals were scored without Thornton or Marleau getting an assist. Kinda makes you think.
Well, that's not really fair. You just said earlier than Pavelski and Thornton have been together all season. Your numbers don't really say anything since I wouldn't expect any less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
And the rest of it is just that neither Couture nor Pavelski ever get the same crap that Marleau gets when he's not scoring, even though he's as good (Pavelski) or better (Couture) defensively and more physical. Man, Pavelski just got out of a brutal stretch of play, but all I saw was the occasional "oh, Pavs hasn't looked good lately". Couture is not playing well at all right now, but I don't see anyone complaining. But Marleau isn't scoring it's the end of the world.
Again, that's just expectations. We're no longer in the black-and-white "best offensive forward" argument anymore so salary actually becomes relevant. Best bang-for-your-buck and all that jazz. I'm sure Handzus wouldn't get nearly as much criticism if he made like 1.5 million instead of 2.5. And people would love Huskins if he made White money.
And Pavelski is inconsistent point wise, but at least he consistently looks engaged. I always saw it as if Pavelski had a bad-game, he would make it up the next game. He wouldn't necessarily score, but he'd be noticeable. Marleau has games of invisibility.
Well, the argument is about online posters who voted for Pavelski instead of Marleau, so "hardly ever questioned by online posters" is a pretty good reason...
Touché. I guess what I've learned here is that anonymous internet posters know nothing.
But my point is that people perceive "hard work" differently. They see Marleau and think he's not skating as hard and assume he's coasting, when in reality he's just a much better skater than Pavelski, Thornton, Clowe, and Couture. He doesn't have to take as many stride because his strides are stronger, so it looks like he's not trying as hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
I guess we have different definitions of board play. That wasn't really on the boards, just behind the net. I was more referring to the grind-it-down, cycle game on the boards. Not the last game in particular, but the ones before that, Pavelski and Thornton did all the heavy lifting. The cycle game literally died on Marleau's stick due to physicality, or a handcuff pass back to a forward or D.
And the play started from a great pinch by the defenseman.
Marleau is good at the cycle game on the boards too... Better than either Pavelski or Couture...
It's true, sometimes Marleau comes down with a temporary case of stonehands, where, you're right, the puck does seem to "die" on his stick. I'm not so much of a homer that I can't see that.
But different players show their coldness in different ways. Marleau can't receive passes, Pavelski whiffs on all his one-timer attempts, Couture can't protect the puck at all, and Thornton attempts a series of stupid blind passes. Everyone shows their "off-games" in different ways.
The past few games Marleau has been sub-par, and yes he's been outplayed by Thornton and Pavelski. But there have been just as many games that Thornton and Marleau carried Pavelski, or Thornton carried both Couture and Pavelski and Marleau played with Clowe and Wingels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
You said Couture never had a streak like Marleau and that he's just as inconsistent. He did have a streak like Marleau, and I'd say he was consistently the best Sharks' forward pre-all-star break. And Couture most definitely gets called out on it. I recall a number of posters calling out his recent cold streak. But even if you ignore that, again, I'm pretty sure the posters can't help not calling out Couture. In this scenario, "expectations" are relevant. People hoped Couture would be this dominant in his sophomore year, but no one really expected it. We expect better from Marleau, especially considering he's making a lot more than the others.
I honestly don't remember seeing any criticism of Couture at all, whereas every GDT is filled with criticism of Marleau. I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't expect you to go through the whole GDT.
The main problem is that people see exactly what Marleau is capable of when he's on a streak, and then grow to expect that every single game. When he can't do that, they get angry and think he's "not trying", like he could pop a goal every single game but just decides not to for stretches.
You know, one of the things that I loved that Clowey said last season was a great quote that went something like "You can't bring your A-game every night, it's just not possible, but you can tell that and figure out a way to make your B- or C-game work for the team". So Marleau recognizes when the puck isn't going in for him and adjusts his game. He gets more conservative defensively, and forechecks harder. To most people, he's coasting, but to him and his team, he's doing what he can to help the team win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
Well, that's not really fair. You just said earlier than Pavelski and Thornton have been together all season. Your numbers don't really say anything since I wouldn't expect any less.
Sure, Marleau has been with Thornton less than Pavelski has this season, but not 2.5 times less. The fact remains that Marleau has assisted on more of Pavelski's goals than Thornton has assisted on Marleau's goals. That's pretty weird, huh? Really supports the idea that Thornton is focusing on just one guy, like we've all supposed, and I think that's a strong argument for Marleau's low goal totals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
Again, that's just expectations. We're no longer in the black-and-white "best offensive forward" argument anymore so salary actually becomes relevant. Best bang-for-your-buck and all that jazz. I'm sure Handzus wouldn't get nearly as much criticism if he made like 1.5 million instead of 2.5. And people would love Huskins if he made White money.
And Pavelski is inconsistent point wise, but at least he consistently looks engaged. I always saw it as if Pavelski had a bad-game, he would make it up the next game. He wouldn't necessarily score, but he'd be noticeable. Marleau has games of invisibility.
How on earth is Pavelski more noticeable? Maybe it's just that you're looking for him. From my perspective, Pavelski has "invisible" games too.
But my point is that people perceive "hard work" differently. They see Marleau and think he's not skating as hard and assume he's coasting, when in reality he's just a much better skater than Pavelski, Thornton, Clowe, and Couture. He doesn't have to take as many stride because his strides are stronger, so it looks like he's not trying as hard.
I wouldn't really say that. I'm pretty sure the majority of the people know Marleau has huge strides. 3 of his strides from the goal line and he's at the opposing blue-line. Not trying has to do more with his lazy passes when he's slumping. Thornton was extremely guilty of this pre all-star break as well. Instead of using his body to cycle and grind in the zone, whenever he got the puck, he would just pass it back immediately (most of the time to a guy with a defender right on top of him).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
Marleau is good at the cycle game on the boards too... Better than either Pavelski or Couture...
Guess we're seeing things differently. I might give you Pavelski (though not as of late since as I said earlier, the recent games, Thornton and Pavelski have been doing the hard-work cycling wise). I always thought Couture was great along the boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
It's true, sometimes Marleau comes down with a temporary case of stonehands, where, you're right, the puck does seem to "die" on his stick. I'm not so much of a homer that I can't see that.
But different players show their coldness in different ways. Marleau can't receive passes, Pavelski whiffs on all his one-timer attempts, Couture can't protect the puck at all, and Thornton attempts a series of stupid blind passes. Everyone shows their "off-games" in different ways.
I'll give you Couture and Thornton, but Pavelski whiffing on one-timers doesn't seem that bad. He's still going into the tough areas to have a chance to score. Couture's boardwork and Thornton/Marleau's passes are just laziness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
The past few games Marleau has been sub-par, and yes he's been outplayed by Thornton and Pavelski. But there have been just as many games that Thornton and Marleau carried Pavelski, or Thornton carried both Couture and Pavelski and Marleau played with Clowe and Wingels.
I agree, and I'm pretty sure people acknowledged Marleau carrying Wingels and Clowe. I know I felt sorry for him having to play with a 3rd liner and an AHL call-up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
The main problem is that people see exactly what Marleau is capable of when he's on a streak, and then grow to expect that every single game. When he can't do that, they get angry and think he's "not trying", like he could pop a goal every single game but just decides not to for stretches.
Sometimes, it looks like he really isn't trying though.
Like seriously, how do you go pointless in the first 6 games of the Detroit series. Especially in game 4 or 5 where he had that super lackadaisical puck-possession that led to a goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
You know, one of the things that I loved that Clowey said last season was a great quote that went something like "You can't bring your A-game every night, it's just not possible, but you can tell that and figure out a way to make your B- or C-game work for the team". So Marleau recognizes when the puck isn't going in for him and adjusts his game. He gets more conservative defensively, and forechecks harder. To most people, he's coasting, but to him and his team, he's doing what he can to help the team win.
Last season, Clowe also said that some people aren't breathing hard and need to get their heads out of their ***.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
Sure, Marleau has been with Thornton less than Pavelski has this season, but not 2.5 times less. The fact remains that Marleau has assisted on more of Pavelski's goals than Thornton has assisted on Marleau's goals. That's pretty weird, huh? Really supports the idea that Thornton is focusing on just one guy, like we've all supposed, and I think that's a strong argument for Marleau's low goal totals.
I see it differently. This season especially, Thornton has the tendency to pass the puck into the slot if all other things fail. Pavelski is simply in that position more often than Marleau is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
How on earth is Pavelski more noticeable? Maybe it's just that you're looking for him. From my perspective, Pavelski has "invisible" games too.
I don't know, it just seems like the play follows him more. Maybe you're just looking at Marleau too much.
Well, I intended to vote for Havlat, but was a little (maybe more?) drunk and accidentally voted for Zeus. Whoops. Those H-a names are always confusing
I wouldn't really say that. I'm pretty sure the majority of the people know Marleau has huge strides. 3 of his strides from the goal line and he's at the opposing blue-line. Not trying has to do more with his lazy passes when he's slumping. Thornton was extremely guilty of this pre all-star break as well. Instead of using his body to cycle and grind in the zone, whenever he got the puck, he would just pass it back immediately (most of the time to a guy with a defender right on top of him).
Knowing and recognizing the fact in the context of a game when emotions run high are two very different things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
Guess we're seeing things differently. I might give you Pavelski (though not as of late since as I said earlier, the recent games, Thornton and Pavelski have been doing the hard-work cycling wise). I always thought Couture was great along the boards.
Couture isn't bad, but no way he's better than Marleau. Marleau, for whatever physical faults people like to attribute to him, is extremely strong on his skates and doesn't get pushed around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
I'll give you Couture and Thornton, but Pavelski whiffing on one-timers doesn't seem that bad. He's still going into the tough areas to have a chance to score. Couture's boardwork and Thornton/Marleau's passes are just laziness.
Pavelski is not a lazy player, but when you're not on, you're not on. And Pavelski's ability to finish diminishes greatly when he's not. Thornton will send him some gorgeous passes that he'll completely miss. I think that's just as frustrating as Marleau, but I guess most people don't see it that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
I agree, and I'm pretty sure people acknowledged Marleau carrying Wingels and Clowe. I know I felt sorry for him having to play with a 3rd liner and an AHL call-up.
I know you did, but not many did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
Sometimes, it looks like he really isn't trying though.
Like seriously, how do you go pointless in the first 6 games of the Detroit series. Especially in game 4 or 5 where he had that super lackadaisical puck-possession that led to a goal.
It's the vacant expression. See the difference:
And
Seriously, I have no idea what was going on in game 5. The rest of the series he was fine defensively even if he was **** offensively, but in game 5 he absolutely mailed it in. Worst performance I have ever seen by a hockey player. Truly embarrassing and hideous. Trust me. Being a huge fan of his means I took it worse. I actually broke my hand punching something that night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
Last season, Clowe also said that some people aren't breathing hard and need to get their heads out of their ***.
Last time I checked, "people" was a plural word. I know that it's a little difficult because it doesn't end in an 's', but you'll have to trust me on this one.
And as another little mini-argument, you assumed that he's talking about Marleau. Typical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
I see it differently. This season especially, Thornton has the tendency to pass the puck into the slot if all other things fail. Pavelski is simply in that position more often than Marleau is.
Pavelski is in the slot more, but it's a well-chronicled fact that Thornton tends to have tunnel-vision to only one of his wingers.
The point I was trying to make more is that Marleau's scored almost as many goals without the benefit of Thornton's playmaking. Marleau is a better goal-scorer than Pavelski, whatever this season's totals might say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
I don't know, it just seems like the play follows him more. Maybe you're just looking at Marleau too much.
You caught me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp
Well, I intended to vote for Havlat, but was a little (maybe more?) drunk and accidentally voted for Zeus. Whoops. Those H-a names are always confusing
Excellent break up of the serious discussion, my friend.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree on most of the stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer
And as another little mini-argument, you assumed that he's talking about Marleau. Typical.
Nah, I just used it as an example to show that Clowe is crazy bipolar. I actually typed "He wasn't talking about Marleau in this situation (think it was Setoguchi)" but I deleted it.
And Clowe can't exactly say "there is a person in this room who isn't breathing hard". That's just a jerk move.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree on most of the stuff.
Fine by me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus
Nah, I just used it as an example to show that Clowe is crazy bipolar. I actually typed "He wasn't talking about Marleau in this situation (think it was Setoguchi)" but I deleted it.
And Clowe can't exactly say "there is a person in this room who isn't breathing hard". That's just a jerk move.
And Clowe's a total jerk.
Relax, as far as judgey-types go, you're not one of them.
Yes thornton might of assisted on 25 of pavs 30 goals, but people that say he just focuses on pavs and doesn't pass to any one fail to look up the assist on the goals. Thornton has 20+ secondary assists on pavs goals, meaning he isn't passing to pavs directly he is using the other players to get the puck to pavs.
Yes thornton might of assisted on 25 of pavs 30 goals, but people that say he just focuses on pavs and doesn't pass to any one fail to look up the assist on the goals. Thornton has 20+ secondary assists on pavs goals, meaning he isn't passing to pavs directly he is using the other players to get the puck to pavs.
Most of Thornton's secondary assists come from when he makes a great pass to Boyle and Boyle shots it and Pavs tips it or shoves in a rebound. Indirect or no, Thornton has been the main reason for the goal.
In fact, as I was looking that up, almost every single one of Joe's secondary assists for Pavs' goals had the primary assist coming from either Boyle or Marleau.
Most of Thornton's secondary assists come from when he makes a great pass to Boyle and Boyle shots it and Pavs tips it or shoves in a rebound. Indirect or no, Thornton has been the main reason for the goal.
In fact, as I was looking that up, almost every single one of Joe's secondary assists for Pavs' goals had the primary assist coming from either Boyle or Marleau.
I think its hard for marleau to get votes just because the way he plays. he may be playing hard, but he just doesnt look like it, i would venture to guess he has another gear in his locker half of the time. he skates so effortlessly.
pavs leaves it all on the ice in my eyes, and im guessing the reason thornton looks for him is because he gets in the right position more often than not. i rarely see marleau in front of the net, but thats just opinion.
obviously thornton wins this pretty much hands down for me, but he also gets a ton of ice time and is usually positioned in our cycle to make the final pass. so he gets help in someways, but he still has to make the pass regardless and the player still has to finish.
so its pretty close between couture/pavs/marleau/thornton.
couture could get it just because hes been on our most transitioning line all season.
lined up with clowe/ferriero/wingels et al for a big portion and still leading the team in goals is very impressive. especially considering his age.
marleau has the most GWG on the team, and thats pretty par for the course for him. he has also had to flit around different lines and he is usually the one that provides a spark in scoring.
pavelski never changes his game, which is part of the reason he is streaky, but also the reason that thornton relies on him. he is reliable, he does what he is supposed to game in game out. sometimes the pucks dont go in for him, but obviously a lot of times they do. i would also consider him to be our biggest clutch performer.
thornton assists on everyones goals, plus he is pretty close to 20 himself. he is another one that doesnt really change his game and he is the biggest reason our cycle works so well, the puck gets glued to his stick and you cant really push him off of it. he can also take a pass in almost any position and get rid of it to keep the cycle going.
there is a solid argument for all four, but i give it to thornton.
I give to Thornton because he is the catalyst and facilitator of the offense. He's creates so much space and is the focal point of the opponents top d-pair and still produces. This also allows Couture's line to face easier matchups. Pavelski and Marleau are both key cogs in their own right.
I think its hard for marleau to get votes just because the way he plays. he may be playing hard, but he just doesnt look like it, i would venture to guess he has another gear in his locker half of the time. he skates so effortlessly.
pavs leaves it all on the ice in my eyes, and im guessing the reason thornton looks for him is because he gets in the right position more often than not. i rarely see marleau in front of the net, but thats just opinion.
obviously thornton wins this pretty much hands down for me, but he also gets a ton of ice time and is usually positioned in our cycle to make the final pass. so he gets help in someways, but he still has to make the pass regardless and the player still has to finish.
so its pretty close between couture/pavs/marleau/thornton.
couture could get it just because hes been on our most transitioning line all season.
lined up with clowe/ferriero/wingels et al for a big portion and still leading the team in goals is very impressive. especially considering his age.
marleau has the most GWG on the team, and thats pretty par for the course for him. he has also had to flit around different lines and he is usually the one that provides a spark in scoring.
pavelski never changes his game, which is part of the reason he is streaky, but also the reason that thornton relies on him. he is reliable, he does what he is supposed to game in game out. sometimes the pucks dont go in for him, but obviously a lot of times they do. i would also consider him to be our biggest clutch performer.
thornton assists on everyones goals, plus he is pretty close to 20 himself. he is another one that doesnt really change his game and he is the biggest reason our cycle works so well, the puck gets glued to his stick and you cant really push him off of it. he can also take a pass in almost any position and get rid of it to keep the cycle going.
there is a solid argument for all four, but i give it to thornton.
Marleau provides the primary screen a lot. He doesn't get credit when he doesn't score off of it. My guess on his latest cold spell is a minor injury to the back from some wicked crosschecks while doing that duty. I noticed in the game when his assist streak stopped. Of all of Marleau/JT/Pavs, JT is the one least likely to go to the net although he does do it.
My guess is that minor injuries played a part in the recent cold spells of Pavs and Couture. We all want players going to the dirty areas. When they do, we have to accept the consequence that from time to time it will directly cause them to not be at their best.
Of all of the top guys, Pavs is taking the biggest pounding in my eyes. I do cut him slack for that.
JT does go tunnelvision. He rarely directly targets the secondary wing on his line. It is either the blueline or his primary forward.
Marleau provides the primary screen a lot. He doesn't get credit when he doesn't score off of it. My guess on his latest cold spell is a minor injury to the back from some wicked crosschecks while doing that duty. I noticed in the game when his assist streak stopped. Of all of Marleau/JT/Pavs, JT is the one least likely to go to the net although he does do it.
My guess is that minor injuries played a part in the recent cold spells of Pavs and Couture. We all want players going to the dirty areas. When they do, we have to accept the consequence that from time to time it will directly cause them to not be at their best.
Of all of the top guys, Pavs is taking the biggest pounding in my eyes. I do cut him slack for that.
JT does go tunnelvision. He rarely directly targets the secondary wing on his line. It is either the blueline or his primary forward.
would you consider marleau strong in front of the net. i understand the need for a screen, but im guessing it would get noticed more often if he was trying to battle for position and not just standing there. again opinion, which is why im asking.
would you consider marleau strong in front of the net. i understand the need for a screen, but im guessing it would get noticed more often if he was trying to battle for position and not just standing there. again opinion, which is why im asking.
Battling harder this year than I have ever seen him battle. Sometimes, it doesn't look like it because he is smooth and strong on his skates. I have frequently seen the other team double him to preclude him from getting to the front. (And then I hear Drew question why they didn't get there. Great analysis, NOT.) That's where they have to find the other winger or a dman coming down the backdoor because the opponent is one player short for the other guys.
I have also seen a lot of varied attack. Sometimes no screen with Pavs and Marleau on opposite sides waiting at rebound pounce depth. That depth is good for rebound putbacks and tips. Both Marleau and Pavs are good with tips.
Battling harder this year than I have ever seen him battle. Sometimes, it doesn't look like it because he is smooth and strong on his skates. I have frequently seen the other team double him to preclude him from getting to the front. (And then I hear Drew question why they didn't get there. Great analysis, NOT.) That's where they have to find the other winger or a dman coming down the backdoor because the opponent is one player short for the other guys.
I have also seen a lot of varied attack. Sometimes no screen with Pavs and Marleau on opposite sides waiting at rebound pounce depth. That depth is good for rebound putbacks and tips. Both Marleau and Pavs are good with tips.
Basically everything here. Marleau is great in front of the net. He just doesn't visually get as abused because he's bigger, stronger, and stronger on his skates. Pavs falls pretty much every time he goes to the net, Patty stays on his skates.
What it does, is leave higher expectations, so your judgement here is "Who has exceeded my expectations more", which is hardly the question here.
