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Andy Greene Contract Extension (Five years, $5 million per)

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08-05-2014, 09:02 AM
  #526
JimEIV
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Originally Posted by Missionhockey View Post
I'm perfectly fine with letting Gelinas go if his demands are unreasonable. Especially since he should be in camp busting his tail off to impress the coaches, definitely not holding out. He's already slow on the defensive side of things, he doesn't need to be caught further behind. And if it does get to the point where NJ needs to trade him, there's always Damon Severson.

The only problem is that Gelinas probably has very little trade value.
Yup. He has to be careful.

It reminds of when Brendan Morrison held out because he thought he was the best 2nd center option in New Jersey....Some kid named Scott Gomez got an opportunity SOLELY because of Morrison's hold out.

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08-05-2014, 09:21 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Missionhockey View Post
I'm perfectly fine with letting Gelinas go if his demands are unreasonable. Especially since he should be in camp busting his tail off to impress the coaches, definitely not holding out. He's already slow on the defensive side of things, he doesn't need to be caught further behind. And if it does get to the point where NJ needs to trade him, there's always Damon Severson.

The only problem is that Gelinas probably has very little trade value.
thats not true at all.

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08-05-2014, 09:36 AM
  #528
Missionhockey
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
thats not true at all.
Gelinas is a project defenseman, I have a hard time believing that a GM is going to pay a premium for a player that they might not be able to play every night.

Then again, you could explain why you think my opinion is wrong.

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08-05-2014, 09:38 AM
  #529
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he scored at a 0.5 PPG pace as a rookie DMan on a team allergic to offense. he is 6'4'' 210 lbs and has a booming shot. Yes, he needs to improve defensively, but even if he becomes league average defensively he will be a great NHL DMan.

you're kidding yourself if you think he has no trade value.

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08-05-2014, 09:47 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
he scored at a 0.5 PPG pace as a rookie DMan on a team allergic to offense. he is 6'4'' 210 lbs and has a booming shot. Yes, he needs to improve defensively, but even if he becomes league average defensively he will be a great NHL DMan.

you're kidding yourself if you think he has no trade value.
I didn't say he had no trade value, I said he had little trade value especially in comparison to his potential.

What do you think you can get for him that would improve the team? A sub-30 top six forward, because if it were me I don't think I would give up something like that for a defenseman that as of last year could barely be trusted with any ice time. Then what is he worth, a draft pick? That's not going to help the team now either and it would make no sense since the Devils spent five years developing this player and I'm sure they don't want to start the process over again.

If the Devils want to get something worth while for Gelinas, they'd probably have to include him in a package.

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08-05-2014, 09:49 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
he scored at a 0.5 PPG pace as a rookie DMan on a team allergic to offense. he is 6'4'' 210 lbs and has a booming shot. Yes, he needs to improve defensively, but even if he becomes league average defensively he will be a great NHL DMan.

you're kidding yourself if you think he has no trade value.
I agree with your assessment of the player but I really do think you are overestimating the value of potential in this case.

He really has done nothing but show promise over a short stint. I am not trying to diminish his accomplishments, they are real, but in the grand scheme of things they are not very large.

Think about it in reverse would you be willing to give up anything more than a draft pick or maybe a mid level prospect for a "maybe"?

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08-05-2014, 09:53 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Missionhockey View Post
I didn't say he had no trade value, I said he had little trade value especially in comparison to his potential.

What do you think you can get for him that would improve the team? A sub-30 top six forward, because if it were me I don't think I would give up something like that for a defenseman that as of last year could barely be trusted with any ice time. Then what is he worth, a draft pick? That's not going to help the team now either and it would make no sense since the Devils spent five years developing this player and I'm sure they don't want to start the process over again.

If the Devils want to get something worth while for Gelinas, they'd probably have to include him in a package.
but see now you are changing your argument. you said he has little trade value, but now you are saying "he has little to no trade value for something worthwhile that we could use now"

its 2 different arguments IMO

and I am not saying I disagree with the last point you are making.

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08-05-2014, 09:54 AM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
he scored at a 0.5 PPG pace as a rookie DMan on a team allergic to offense. he is 6'4'' 210 lbs and has a booming shot. Yes, he needs to improve defensively, but even if he becomes league average defensively he will be a great NHL DMan.

you're kidding yourself if you think he has no trade value.
I think you are kidding yourself if you think Gelinas is close to being a league average in his own zone.

It also doesn't make much sense for Lou to trade Gelinas unless Severson makes the team out of camp and a team offers something of value for Gelinas. I doubt Gelinas is traded before the start of the season. My guess is Lou is going to see if Gelinas shows any kind of improvement defensively (he can't get worse) before he thinks about packaging him for another team need.

People seem to really overrate one way defenseman both (defensively and offensively) more than one way forwards.

Greene - Larsson
Merrill - Zidlicky
Sal - Severson

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08-05-2014, 09:55 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by tycobb View Post
I think you are kidding yourself if you think Gelinas is close to being a league average in his own zone.

It also doesn't make much sense for Lou to trade Gelinas unless Severson makes the team out of camp and a team offers something of value for Gelinas. I doubt Gelinas is traded before the start of the season. My guess is Lou is going to see if Gelinas shows any kind of improvement defensively (he can't get worse) before he thinks about packaging him for another team need.

People seem to really overrate one way defenseman both (defensively and offensively) more than one way forwards.

Greene - Larsson
Merrill - Zidlicky
Sal - Severson
where did I say he was league average defensively, exactly? I said if he can BECOME that, he will be a great NHL DMan.

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08-05-2014, 10:04 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
where did I say he was league average defensively, exactly? I said if he can BECOME that, he will be a great NHL DMan.
Most 1 way players who can improve 2 standard deviations for the weak side would be great NHL players. Probability it happens is low.

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08-05-2014, 10:06 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
but see now you are changing your argument. you said he has little trade value, but now you are saying "he has little to no trade value for something worthwhile that we could use now"

its 2 different arguments IMO

and I am not saying I disagree with the last point you are making.
I'm not changing my argument, I was expanding on it but that's semantics. The point is Gelinas on his own does not hold much value. What's the point of trading Gelinas if all we can get (like Jim said) is a draft pick or a prospect? Gelinas on his own is not going to net us a guy like Marchand for example.

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Old
08-05-2014, 10:29 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by tycobb View Post
Most 1 way players who can improve 2 standard deviations for the weak side would be great NHL players. Probability it happens is low.
You just threw words in his mouth and then ran with it. Nowhere in his post did he say #22 was average defensively.

He has 60 games of NHL experience under his belt. Acting like there's no possible way for him to imrpove his reads (pinching, holding the line, etc) and overall play in the D-zone is nothing short of laughable. Young defensemen step into the league and struggle all the time - and also take the most time to fully develop. He's not the first guy to struggle with this and get benched, scratched, see sheltered minutes, etc and he won't be the last.

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Old
08-05-2014, 11:04 AM
  #538
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Did anyone see Gelinas play much at the AHL level? Could help to know if he was known to be not so good defensively even at that level, or if he was just overwhelmed at times at the NHL level...

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Old
08-05-2014, 01:57 PM
  #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
I agree with your assessment of the player but I really do think you are overestimating the value of potential in this case.

He really has done nothing but show promise over a short stint. I am not trying to diminish his accomplishments, they are real, but in the grand scheme of things they are not very large.

Think about it in reverse would you be willing to give up anything more than a draft pick or maybe a mid level prospect for a "maybe"?
Toolsy defenseman who had a good AHL career and put up 0.5 PPG in his first NHL season? You can bet Gelinas has good trade value.

I probably wouldn't want to acquire a defenseman, but someone like Thomas Tatar is a good comp for Gelinas' value.

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