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Sean Couturier is already one of the better defensive forwards in the NHL

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Old
04-16-2014, 03:06 PM
  #851
walle
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Why would they want to start over half their shifts in the defensive zone, be hemmed in by other teams top offensive lines for a majority of their shift only to finally win the puck, skate to the neutral zone, dump the puck in and change?
First of, Couturier doesnt start half of his shifts around defensive zone either. Its around 35%. And its only 35% when you think about it. Rest 65% is elsewhere. What defensive pairing you're playing is much more impactful than 5-10% difference in zonestarts or forward lines. Its just how majority of teams play their lineup. And no you wont "be hemmed" unless you're the leafs. Good lines find a way, thats why they are given those minutes. And this is not argument against Couturier, its just a fact that lots of players in the league just happen to player tougher minutes than Couturier. Couturier is an amazing player but cherrypicking "4-players in the league" stats is just stupid and not true.

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04-16-2014, 03:18 PM
  #852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
First of, Couturier doesnt start half of his shifts around defensive zone either. Its around 35%. And its only 35% when you think about it. Rest 65% is elsewhere. What defensive pairing you're playing is much more impactful than 5-10% difference in zonestarts or forward lines. Its just how majority of teams play their lineup. And no you wont "be hemmed" unless you're the leafs. Good lines find a way, thats why they are given those minutes. And this is not argument against Couturier, its just a fact that lots of players in the league just happen to player tougher minutes than Couturier. Couturier is an amazing player but cherrypicking "4-players in the league" stats is just stupid and not true.
There was no cherry picking. I explained what I did, and the results were that there are only 4 players in the league used similarly to Couturier. The fact that it doesn't fit what you think should be right does not mean it isn't true. There are no complicated stats or anything to skew the results. It was simply who plays against tough forward competition, with a low O/DSt%, and kills a ton of penalties.

Those are the qualities of the prototypical defensive forward :play against top lines, take defensive zone draws, and kill penalties.

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04-16-2014, 06:58 PM
  #853
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Since everyone wants to talk about his offense in this thread about being elite defensively, how about this:

RNH, Landeskog, Sadd, Palat.

Those are the only players from his draft year who beat him in points this year.

I guess that entire draft class is a bust in your opinion right? What a shame to all those other players who are busts like Strome, Scheifle, Zibanejad, Huberdeau, Jenner, Etc...

Since all you guys want to do is look at points to gauge a players value, Couturier was T5th in scoring from his draft class.

Now what do you say?
Still waiting on you Classic...

In the meanwhile, other things I learned from this thread:

Read was a 1st liner...cus you know...he gets 1st line minutes.
Bonino is a 1st line C...cus you know...he gets 1st line minutes.
Joe Thorton is a 2nd line player now.

I'm not sure why it is hard for some people to understand, that all minutes are not the same.

Funny how this wasn't commented on either...

"ES+PP Time
Giroux- 19:38 (86 points)
Voracek- 17:11 (62 points)
Hartnell- 16:48 (52 points)
Simmonds- 16:42 (60 points)
Read- 15:42 (40 points)
Couturier- 15:38 (39 points)
Schenn- 15:25 (41 points)
Lecavalier- 15:09 (37 points)"

TO ME, this looks like he is the 6th option for offense on the team. Sure doesn't look like 1st line minutes in an offensive role. But there is no doubt that he is THE #1 option for defensive role.

AND, if you look at just PP time, he gets the 9th worst forward minutes.

SO AGAIN, he is top 5 this year in scoring from his draft year AND IS 6th on his team for offensive roles AND does this while playing against other teams top lines AND is 9th in forward PP time.

Sure looks like he is being played in a defensive role yet out scores almost his entire draft class. Some people are clueless and can not be helped.

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Old
04-16-2014, 08:42 PM
  #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Still waiting on you Classic...

In the meanwhile, other things I learned from this thread:

Read was a 1st liner...cus you know...he gets 1st line minutes.
Bonino is a 1st line C...cus you know...he gets 1st line minutes.
Joe Thorton is a 2nd line player now.

I'm not sure why it is hard for some people to understand, that all minutes are not the same.

Funny how this wasn't commented on either...

"ES+PP Time
Giroux- 19:38 (86 points)
Voracek- 17:11 (62 points)
Hartnell- 16:48 (52 points)
Simmonds- 16:42 (60 points)
Read- 15:42 (40 points)
Couturier- 15:38 (39 points)
Schenn- 15:25 (41 points)
Lecavalier- 15:09 (37 points)"

TO ME, this looks like he is the 6th option for offense on the team. Sure doesn't look like 1st line minutes in an offensive role. But there is no doubt that he is THE #1 option for defensive role.

AND, if you look at just PP time, he gets the 9th worst forward minutes.

SO AGAIN, he is top 5 this year in scoring from his draft year AND IS 6th on his team for offensive roles AND does this while playing against other teams top lines AND is 9th in forward PP time.

Sure looks like he is being played in a defensive role yet out scores almost his entire draft class. Some people are clueless and can not be helped.
Way to take out those three minutes of PK time a game he gets that give him such an advantage over other guys to put up points.

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Old
04-16-2014, 09:18 PM
  #855
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Well, at the very least, since we're doing a "Couturier - overrated?" thread we don't have time to do another stupid "Giroux - overrated?" thread.

I thought these would've gone out of style in the Richards/Carter days...

Seems to me like there's a running theme on HF.

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Old
04-17-2014, 12:04 AM
  #856
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Originally Posted by dilbert719 View Post
Seems only fair, since the second someone says something positive about the Flyers, 15 people pile on them. That's the way it goes for any polarizing team. Toronto gets a lot of that here, too.
Yeah, but you guys deserve it.

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04-17-2014, 08:18 PM
  #857
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Didn't look too hot on those PPs imo

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04-17-2014, 08:22 PM
  #858
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Completely pathetic effort level tonight. If they can't get up for the ****ing play offs then what can they do? It's the ****ing rangers! Abysmal.

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Old
04-17-2014, 09:39 PM
  #859
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Couts will never live up to his draft position.

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04-17-2014, 10:41 PM
  #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Couts will never live up to his draft position.
You seem to have an abnormally high opinion of the 8th overall pick. He's already surpassed his draft position.

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04-18-2014, 01:01 AM
  #861
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Couts will never live up to his draft position.
Eh, with the 8th selection you're hoping it turns out to be a player as good as Couturier.

I think that's one of HF's problems and why so many prospects get overrated before they play a game in the NHL, then get trashed so much when they're two seasons into their NHL careers and haven't scored 100 points yet.

A lot of folks on HF seem to expect every first round pick to be a point per game offensive stud or top pairing 40+ point defenseman. If a player isn't that, he's not living up to his draft position.

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04-18-2014, 08:53 AM
  #862
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Couts will never live up to his draft position.
Couturier has already done better than the average #8 pick.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/nhl-draft-...overall/80509/

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Old
04-18-2014, 08:57 AM
  #863
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He is likely going to come top ten in Selke voting in his 3rd year after his draft year. (20-21 year old season.) (he had Selke nominations in his rookie season as well, albeit a few 5th places.)

Best Selke finish by the time they were in their 3rd season after draft year (age 20-21 season):

J. Staal: 13th
O'Reilly: 14th
Toews: 17th
Landeskog: 43rd
Hossa: N/A (first nomination in 4th season after draft.)
Couture: N/A (first nomination in 4th season after draft.)
Kesler: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Stastny: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
M. Richards: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Getzlaf: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Giroux: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Callahan: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Fisher: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Zajac: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Stepan: N/A (first nomination in 5th season after draft.)
Bergeron: N/A (first nomination in 6th season after draft.)
Kopitar: N/A (first nomination in 6th season after draft.)
M. Koivu: N/A (first nomination in 6th season after draft.)
Plekanec: N/A (first nomination in 7th season after draft.)
Backes: N/A (first nomination in 7th season after draft.)
Zetterberg: N/A (first nomination in 7th season after draft.)
Vermette: N/A (first nomination in 7th season after draft.)
McClement: N/A (first nomination in 8th season after draft.)
Nielsen: N/A (first nomination in 8th season after draft.)
Marleau: N/A (first nomination in 9th season after draft.)
Datsyuk: N/A (first nomination in 9th season after draft.)

Not perfect by any means, as each player has different circumstances, and a few were not in the NHL by then; but it does show how excellent defensively he is at a very young age.

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04-18-2014, 11:27 AM
  #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Couts will never live up to his draft position.
He's been a good choice as an 8th overall pick.

He won't live up to some of the very lofty expectations that some people have for him on here though.

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04-18-2014, 01:16 PM
  #865
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He'll be very John Madden-esque over his career.

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04-18-2014, 01:22 PM
  #866
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Needs to work on his offense but a perfect 3rd liner at this rate.

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Old
04-18-2014, 07:36 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Eh, with the 8th selection you're hoping it turns out to be a player as good as Couturier.

I think that's one of HF's problems and why so many prospects get overrated before they play a game in the NHL, then get trashed so much when they're two seasons into their NHL careers and haven't scored 100 points yet.

A lot of folks on HF seem to expect every first round pick to be a point per game offensive stud or top pairing 40+ point defenseman. If a player isn't that, he's not living up to his draft position.
Yeah, a bit OT but I know what you mean, my friend thinks Michael Del Zotto at 20+ in the first round is a bust. He had some very good years that most 20+ spot players only wish they could duplicate. He was a big part of our ECF season. He was also traded for a solid contributor in Kevin Klein. It's JMHO, but saying he's a bust is ridiculous. I think it's not only an HF thing. Many people don't know that the first round is not a golden ticket to a superstar.

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04-18-2014, 07:45 PM
  #868
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Yeah MDZ is not a bust. You should tell him the Hugh Jessiman story if he wants to hear about an actual bust.

And almost every team has plenty of first round busts. Even top 10 players bust more often than people think. Who here has even heard of former 8th overall picks like Scott Glenie, Zach Hamil, Alexandre Picard and Nikita Alexeev?

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04-18-2014, 08:14 PM
  #869
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I find it funny to hear that he won't live up to his #8 selection when he was #5 this year in scoring from his draft year AND delivers excellent defense.

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04-18-2014, 09:47 PM
  #870
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people dont know about my Chris Kelly

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Old
04-18-2014, 09:57 PM
  #871
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Yeah MDZ is not a bust. You should tell him the Hugh Jessiman story if he wants to hear about an actual bust.

And almost every team has plenty of first round busts. Even top 10 players bust more often than people think. Who here has even heard of former 8th overall picks like Scott Glenie, Zach Hamil, Alexandre Picard and Nikita Alexeev?
He knows a lot about the Rangers (possibly more than me) and knows more about hockey than me (he actually plays). He's just out to lunch with the draft.

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Old
04-18-2014, 10:02 PM
  #872
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I find it funny to hear that he won't live up to his #8 selection when he was #5 this year in scoring from his draft year AND delivers excellent defense.
Most people don't really watch much besides their own club. We're all guilty of it I suppose. We kind of just take on whatever opinion we see instead of questioning why the opinion exists or formulating our own. That's why I stay away from the main boards. The age of your player, his potential and analysis beyond the surface is irrelevant. What is relevant are offensive statistics, now... Unless of course, the player in question is on my team. Then it's a different story.

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