Yeah.. glad to know Yohe knows just as much as we do..
It really is funny. Some GM's will let on what they're doing, who they're targeting. That's Brian Burke. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Others, like Shero, won't give a ******* clue what they're up to, so it's left to media guys to speculate. It's doable with the annual rental names. BUT, when Shero goes off the chart with a hockey trade, they've got no clue. And, that tweet about signing 87 and 11 to long term deals this summer . . . it's no easier to do it with Martin's long term contract on the books than it would be with Malone's.
Actually, I'd call it being in a 'win every year but in a way that you can win for the next 15 years' mode.
You don't move quality assets for Dustin Penner. You make hockey trades.
The numbers work for Malone. If it's TK and Nisky, it's good for this year and perhaps next before you have to move Martin or Michalek (but you likely had to do that anyway). If it's Martin, you're good for this year and the next two.
Malone is hardly my preference. kBUT, if you looked at the type of guys Shero would make a hockey trade for, where he'd get into giving up a #1 or a Bennett, the cap hit of that guy might be 500K - 1.2M less than Malone's hit and, odd as it sounds, you would have the 'who will he fit with and will he fit as we envision' question with that acquisition . . . you won't have that question with Malone.
I think it's a bit of both. When you have Sid and Geno, your goal should be to win it all every year. JOn the other hand, Shero wants to position himself to be able to do that for the next decade with Sid and Geno and I think Letang, Staal, and Flower. You can't afford to waste an opportunity. By the same token, you can't afford to give up quality assetjs for middling rentals.
Rentals who are little better than what they have. They have a ton of depth much like what is being offered.
I suppose if you look at a guy like Erik Cole and his resurgence, it'd give one cause for hope. It'd just put our cap in such a precarious position that I wouldn't want to risk it.
I'd rather give up a more coveted "futures" asset and get a cheaper/younger option.
I know. BUT, I think you're with me that, over the next few years, as you transition Despres, Morrow, Harrington, and the other young defensive guys onto the roster and into bigger roles, the goal would be to transition dollars from defense to offense and to try to create a situation where Sid and Geno both have two good wingers each (i.e., in the same way Shero exploited Sid, Geno, and Staal being on rookie deals, he can exploit the defenseman being on rookie deals, as well as Tanger on his discounted deal for two more years after this).
Now, what type of forwards do you want to add? Well, we've talked about them. Stewart, Brown, Kulemin, etc. Thing is, those guys will cost you, and it's not unreasonable to think that the Pens have the right assets, right now. BUT, you like those guys because they're younger and will run you in the low three to high three million dollar price range.
Absent that, you can't go into the free agency market. The Hemsky deal pretty much killed that. A one year reclamation project? Not exactly something that's worked out as planned, no?
So, what you're talking about with Malone is that he's older, likely more susceptible to injury, and makes 1M more than you'd ideally like to pay.
As I said, it's not perfect, but you look at the cons, look at the pluses, consider what you wouldn't have to give up for Malone, and it's not as obnoxious an idea as it sounds as first blush.
First blush, I was like '**** no'.
Side question: Someone else asked this yesterday . . . if you're talking Malone and that cap hit, should you consider Umberger as a target?
Jesus Christ would I be stoked to have Bugsy back on this team.
If it weren't for his contract. I was soooo depressed when he left this team, but hey.. it's what Geno does. He gives players their career best year, then they go on to sign somewhere that's willing to overpay. Malone, Talbot, thankfully, Neal stayed with us. Then again, his next contract will probably be his best, and I doubt it'll be with us.
Jesus Christ would I be stoked to have Bugsy back on this team.
If it weren't for his contract. I was soooo depressed when he left this team, but hey.. it's what Geno does. He gives players their career best year, then they go on to sign somewhere that's willing to overpay. Malone, Talbot, thankfully, Neal stayed with us. Then again, his next contract will probably be his best, and I doubt it'll be with us.
I know. BUT, I think you're with me that, over the next few years, as you transition Despres, Morrow, Harrington, and the other young defensive guys onto the roster and into bigger roles, the goal would be to transition dollars from defense to offense and to try to create a situation where Sid and Geno both have two good wingers each (i.e., in the same way Shero exploited Sid, Geno, and Staal being on rookie deals, he can exploit the defenseman being on rookie deals, as well as Tanger on his discounted deal for two more years after this).
Now, what type of forwards do you want to add? Well, we've talked about them. Stewart, Brown, Kulemin, etc. Thing is, those guys will cost you, and it's not unreasonable to think that the Pens have the right assets, right now. BUT, you like those guys because they're younger and will run you in the low three to high three million dollar price range.
Absent that, you can't go into the free agency market. The Hemsky deal pretty much killed that. A one year reclamation project? Not exactly something that's worked out as planned, no?
So, what you're talking about with Malone is that he's older, likely more susceptible to injury, and makes 1M more than you'd ideally like to pay.
As I said, it's not perfect, but you look at the cons, look at the pluses, consider what you wouldn't have to give up for Malone, and it's not as obnoxious an idea as it sounds as first blush.
First blush, I was like '**** no'.
Side question: Someone else asked this yesterday . . . if you're talking Malone and that cap hit, should you consider Umberger as a target?
Those are the wingers we need to hold out for. I'm confident that Shero can pull off another Neal-type deal with the non-core blueline depth we have (though not necessarily on the same scale ), and do it before next season.
Sometimes its tempting to look at a guy like Malone, but there are just too many potential negatives to take on a pricey, banged-up vet with diminishing returns.
Those are the wingers we need to hold out for. I'm confident that Shero can pull off another Neal-type deal with the non-core blueline depth we have (though not necessarily on the same scale ), and do it before next season.
Sometimes its tempting to look at a guy like Malone, but there are just too many potential negatives to take on a pricey, banged-up vet with diminishing returns.
Honestly never thought to ask your take on this. What do you think Martin's value is relative to Gogo's. To a team that could use a vet PMD, I think it's similar but the winger coming back might not be quite as much of a sure thing as Neal was.
Not into Malone, Pass! Not for that contract, 1M overpaid, and he's older and wear and tear will happen to his body for the player he is. It's from Eklund, so meh....ain't happening. Need a youngish guy (between 24-27) for Crosby's wing.
Honestly never thought to ask your take on this. What do you think Martin's value is relative to Gogo's. To a team that could use a vet PMD, I think it's similar but the winger coming back might not be quite as much of a sure thing as Neal was.
Martin will probably bring back a Kulemin player, and a pick. If Leafs trade Schenn, perhaps Pens can swing a deal for Kulemin?
Honestly never thought to ask your take on this. What do you think Martin's value is relative to Gogo's. To a team that could use a vet PMD, I think it's similar but the winger coming back might not be quite as much of a sure thing as Neal was.
I think it's comparable. Martin's had a bad year, but fortunately for us, GMs don't have the same short memory most of HF has. As I've said in this and many other threads, the guy's been a top pairing calibre PMD every year since the lockout, save the current half-season. That holds a lot of value.
One could argue that Shero doesn't have a short memory either, but our team's strengths (and weaknesses) make Martin an expendable asset for the right return, IMHO.
Well played. BTW, Neal's response in the interview about the lazy thing was epic. Can't win with Geno because he doesn't understand what you're saying . . .
I think it's comparable. Martin's had a bad year, but fortunately for us, GMs don't have the same short memory most of HF has. As I've said in this and many other threads, the guy's been a top pairing calibre PMD every year since the lockout, save the current half-season. That holds a lot of value.
One could argue that Shero doesn't have a short memory either, but our team's strengths (and weaknesses) make Martin an expendable asset for the right return.
Is Martin's trade value similar when you consider what Gogo's cap hit was for 100 games. I know Gogo signed an extension for big money, but at the time, his cap hit was part of what made his value so high. You couldn't have done the Neal deal with Dallas.
Martin will probably bring back a Kulemin player, and a pick. If Leafs trade Schenn, perhaps Pens can swing a deal for Kulemin?
Martin won't get you Kulemin. Orpik/Michalek, though, might get you Kulemin + Franson. That's a need thing. Toronto just extended Liles, has Gardiner, and then has Phaneuf as PMD's.
Those are the wingers we need to hold out for. I'm confident that Shero can pull off another Neal-type deal with the non-core blueline depth we have (though not necessarily on the same scale ), and do it before next season.
Sometimes its tempting to look at a guy like Malone, but there are just too many potential negatives to take on a pricey, banged-up vet with diminishing returns.
I get your point. I also get the argument for Malone. I don't know that there's necessarily a wrong answer, especially when you're like me and would like to see Shero do both a give both Sid and Geno two good wingers each.
In theory, you could make the deal for Malone and then make that other deal where you give up major assets over the summer (e.g., TK + Nisky for Malone, then move Martin over the summer in a Gogo style deal).
I think it's comparable. Martin's had a bad year, but fortunately for us, GMs don't have the same short memory most of HF has. As I've said in this and many other threads, the guy's been a top pairing calibre PMD every year since the lockout, save the current half-season. That holds a lot of value.
One could argue that Shero doesn't have a short memory either, but our team's strengths (and weaknesses) make Martin an expendable asset for the right return, IMHO.
Agreed. What do you think about taking back Colaiacovo? Every time I've watched him this year, he's looked solid in his own end. Little bit of skill offensively and has been playing 20+ minutes with regularity. Injuries have been a problem for him but we'd only need him as a rental and if we decide to not resign Niskanen, we could try to resign him with the cap savings if he's a fit
Martin won't get you Kulemin. Orpik/Michalek, though, might get you Kulemin + Franson. That's a need thing. Toronto just extended Liles, has Gardiner, and then has Phaneuf as PMD's.
Perhaps a Kulemin type player. Guy who can get 30 goals, and has potential for 35 on our team. Around the age of 27-30. Gogo when he was traded was only 26, still has room to grow, and was dirt cheap as you mentioned above.
Is Martin's trade value similar when you consider what Gogo's cap hit was for 100 games. I know Gogo signed an extension for big money, but at the time, his cap hit was part of what made his value so high. You couldn't have done the Neal deal with Dallas.
It depends on the team. Martin didn't have Gogs' cap hit, but Gogs didn't have Martin's track record of being a proven top pairing defenseman for 5 years. It's easy to gloss over now, but when the trade was made there were a lot of questions about how Gogs would fare without the sheltered minutes.
Martin could return a young struggling scoring winger. I'll always go back to Rozsival yielding Wolski a year ago...that's the sort of return we could expect for him even now, though obviously we'd want our youngster to pan out better.
Since we are finally at the weekend leading up to the deadline (and this is approaching 1k) I started GDTs for both threads. I'll try to keep the OP updates as much as possible.
